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-   -   A significant day in community governance? (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75431)

misterc 2011-08-06 09:25
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
that's the MeeGo thread, right?

independently of the questionable fate of B2G, it is worth noticing that it uses Android drivers.
maybe something MeeGo needs to start working on, if it wants to get any reach?
of course, defining platform standards and providing drivers for those go hand in hand...

any thoughts?

abill_uk 2011-08-06 09:28
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1064532)
some even paid a small fortune to have a seat in the 1st row, i'd say :D :rolleyes:
HA talk for yourself, i paid a fortune to have a seat in the BACK row :(

danramos 2011-08-06 10:05
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1065044)
that's the MeeGo thread, right?

independently of the questionable fate of B2G, it is worth noticing that it uses Android drivers.
maybe something MeeGo needs to start working on, if it wants to get any reach?
of course, defining platform standards and providing drivers for those go hand in hand...

any thoughts?
Well, now, that sounds very NDIS-wrapper-ish. I wonder how do-able that would be.

misterc 2011-08-06 10:06
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1065050)
Well, now, that sounds very NDIS-wrapper-ish. I wonder how do-able that would be.
i don't get the picture... X-(
;) :D

EDIT: i think they already did the NDIS-wrappish thingy, didn't they?
they are able to run Android apps on Harmattan, or did i confuse that with something else?
not sure in how far that would do for booting, however :confused:

lma 2011-08-06 11:01
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
What makes android drivers better/more open/whatever than maemo/meego ones?

gerbick 2011-08-06 15:58
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 1065073)
What makes android drivers better/more open/whatever than maemo/meego ones?
Better than Maemo because they get updated? Otherwise, I'm just as curious.

misterc 2011-08-06 16:20
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1065186)
Better than Maemo because they get updated? Otherwise, I'm just as curious.
like i said, platform?
Google has defined one & i assume makes sure any device complying with it will boot up smooth & nice.
couldn't say for sure as i never touched an Android device (except my N900 when it was briefly running NITDroid :D)

except the N9, N950 and Asus X101, is there any device booting up MeeGo?
well, on the netbook side of the fence, i guess any WIntel device will do, but on the MID side of things?

EDIT: baaah, silly me... the N900, of course :rolleyes:
otherwise? :confused:

misterc 2011-08-06 18:24
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
interesting article about... MeeGo's other partner, Intel...

not too promising neither... :(
would rather prove NOKIA right in going all wp...

danramos 2011-08-07 05:36
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1065052)
i don't get the picture... X-(
;) :D

EDIT: i think they already did the NDIS-wrappish thingy, didn't they?
they are able to run Android apps on Harmattan, or did i confuse that with something else?
not sure in how far that would do for booting, however :confused:
Again, no... Maemo nor MeeGo are neither able to run Android apps yet. You can boot into NITdroid to run Android apps, but you have to reboot into NITdroid. So far, near as I can tell, there's never been a released Android app engine to run under either Maemo nor MeeGo. If anybody's seen one--PLEASE let us know and provide a link or reference to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 1065073)
What makes android drivers better/more open/whatever than maemo/meego ones?
Better because they would at least work, work faster/better and be available... NOT more open, that's the problem with an NDIS style wrapper (or you might be familiar with the nVidia style GPL-wrapper)--you're wrapping a closed-source binary blob with an open-source "interpreter" object to speak to said driver... whatever, well.. yeah.. if your platform wants to run on ANY hardware, it might work better or at least WORK at all if you could write an NDIS-style or GPL wrapper to run hardware drivers. I'm not saying it's the best or most open way to get things done--I'm just saying it might be the only way to get direct and/or functional access to accelerated or proprietary hardware, using Android-intended hardware drivers... and it would mean you wouldn't have to disassemble or reverse engineer the drivers--just the way Android itself manages to talk to them.

rishabsp 2011-08-07 05:51
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1065400)
Again, no... Maemo nor MeeGo are neither able to run Android apps yet. You can boot into NITdroid to run Android apps, but you have to reboot into NITdroid. So far, near as I can tell, there's never been a released Android app engine to run under either Maemo nor MeeGo. If anybody's seen one--PLEASE let us know and provide a link or reference to it.



Better because they would at least work, work faster/better and be available... NOT more open, that's the problem with an NDIS style wrapper (or you might be familiar with the nVidia style GPL-wrapper)--you're wrapping a closed-source binary blob with an open-source "interpreter" object to speak to said driver... whatever, well.. yeah.. if your platform wants to run on ANY hardware, it might work better or at least WORK at all if you could write an NDIS-style or GPL wrapper to run hardware drivers. I'm not saying it's the best or most open way to get things done--I'm just saying it might be the only way to get direct and/or functional access to accelerated or proprietary hardware, using Android-intended hardware drivers... and it would mean you wouldn't have to disassemble or reverse engineer the drivers--just the way Android itself manages to talk to them.
There was Alien-Dalvik which was made to run android apps on maemo....but nokia never purchased it...now nokia is planning to buy dalvik for meego so as to keep N9 users happy....so there will be a dallvik for meego....hope some mods can port it to maemo...

timoph 2011-08-07 05:54
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1065197)
except the N9, N950 and Asus X101, is there any device booting up MeeGo?
well, on the netbook side of the fence, i guess any WIntel device will do, but on the MID side of things?

EDIT: baaah, silly me... the N900, of course
otherwise?
http://wiki.meego.com/Devices (please note that the list is a bit outdated so there's more...)

Also see http://wiki.meego.com/Devices/Unlisted_Handsets

In addition to those there's snowball, trimslice, tegra2, etc.

I guess the message here is that MeeGo is a platform that *can* and *is* being ported to new platforms.

ps. removed the coloring from the quote since I don't get the need to use those...

larux 2011-08-07 06:23
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishabsp (Post 1065402)
There was Alien-Dalvik which was made to run android apps on maemo....but nokia never purchased it...now nokia is planning to buy dalvik for meego so as to keep N9 users happy....so there will be a dallvik for meego....hope some mods can port it to maemo...
Any references to support yyour claims about Nokia's dalvik transaction?

misterc 2011-08-07 08:54
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishabsp (Post 1065402)
There was Alien-Dalvik which was made to run android apps on maemo....but nokia never purchased it...now nokia is planning to buy dalvik for meego so as to keep N9 users happy....so there will be a dallvik for meego....hope some mods can port it to maemo...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokia N9 could run Android apps: Alien Dalvik interview
[...]
Android apps are written to run on a virtual machine called Dalvik. Alien Dalvik makes it possible to run Android apps on MeeGo phones like the N9. We spoke to Myriad, the company that makes Alien Dalvik, to find out whether we it was worth getting our hopes up about the Android apps on the N9.

"It's perfectly possible," said Olivier Bartholot, Myriad's VP of business development, although he wouldn't comment specifically on Nokia's plans for Alien Dalvik on the N9.
[...]
"The whole point of having Alien Dalvik was to be able to run the Dalvik virtual machine on a Maemo/MeeGo environment. That's what we demonstrated on the N900 and there's no reason why it wouldn't work on the N9 as well."
[...]
So Alien Dalvik is a solution to the N9's app needs, in theory, but it won't be something you can install yourself, if you end up with an N9 in your pocket. Instead, Nokia or your network would have to slap Alien Dalvik on the phone.

"Because it goes really deep into the root of the OS, it cannot be a downloadable application. It would have to be ported prior to the phone being shipped. It would have to be a decision of the mobile phone manufacturer or the network."

We approached Nokia for new on whether it has any plans to make this happen, but it wouldn't comment.
[...]
(article is from 22nd of june 2011...)

misterc 2011-08-07 12:15
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timoph (Post 1065404)
http://wiki.meego.com/Devices (please note that the list is a bit outdated so there's more...)

Also see http://wiki.meego.com/Devices/Unlisted_Handsets

In addition to those there's snowball, trimslice, tegra2, etc.

I guess the message here is that MeeGo is a platform that *can* and *is* being ported to new platforms.

ps. removed the coloring from the quote since I don't get the need to use those...
apologies for stumbling into your kitchen :o
guess i'll settle with my 2nd N900 as a MeeGo test bed
can't afford to put 2000 bucks into a "dev device" (Aava?) and have no use of a developer board, sorry :p
but i might end up using the N900 as a test devices for some bleeding edge features :D (Cordia :eek: ?)

any way, as i have a dedicated N900 for MeeGo i would like to install it on eMMC.
already found the ARM/N900/Install/EMMC page but can't seem to find the [Kernel] for
Code:
./n900-de-emmc-installer.sh -i [MeeGo Image] -f -k [Kernel]
?
any hint where i could find it?

PS: colors?
like i said, apologies for stumbling into your kitchen. i guess meego is fairly important to you and you resent the colourful parrot sitting on it :o
it isn't quite that, though
it is more of a protest against, well, i won't call them trolls, because they don't even deserve that, more the flame warriors who pick one sentence in a post (of maybe 1000 to 1500 characters...) make a ridiculous or even insulting comment and hit and run, hopping of course to start yet another fight...
i usually take time to collect info for my posts & edit them & the colors are like doting the Is and crossing the Ts.

timoph 2011-08-07 12:56
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1065505)
any way, as i have a dedicated N900 for MeeGo i would like to install it on eMMC.
already found the ARM/N900/Install/EMMC page
Good. that's why I wrote the page and the installation script so people can do that if they choose to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1065505)
but can't seem to find the [Kernel] for
Code:
./n900-de-emmc-installer.sh -i [MeeGo Image] -f -k [Kernel]
?

any hint where i could find it?
You'll find the kernel from the the same place you take the image (the .raw.bz2 file). The kernel is the file that's name ends with e.g. vmlinuz-2.6.37-42.6.DE-adaptation-n900

And about the eMMC installation. While you are free to do that - you should know that the performance is better when running it from e.g. class 6 memory card. So I'd recommend using a class 6 memory card and booting it using uboot. Doing this doesn't require flashing/loading the kernel. Besides it's simpler and the preferred way.

ps. If you end up doing the eMMC installation don't get fooled about the "takes about 10 minutes" message. In reality it takes something like 20-30 minutes.

ysss 2011-08-07 14:39
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
While they're posts about the n900, they are still off topic for this thread.

timoph 2011-08-07 14:47
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysss (Post 1065557)
While they're posts about the n900, they are still off topic for this thread.
Very true. To push things back to the topic I'll copy-paste what I have to say about the matter from MeeGo forums:

Quote:
Useless to start blaming LF for this and that or guessing what can or cannot happen. The decision was made and we have to live with it. Instead I'd like to see this as a wake-up call for making things happen. Most people who have been hanging around here more than a few weeks know that MeeGo from meego.com is not really aimed for individual end users and I don't think that will change nor it should (this seems to be the thing causing the most of the confusion around MeeGo). So...

I've been silently wishing for a MeeGo based end-user targetted community controlled distribution. Think of suse/openSuse setup or the N9x0 CE with a wider scope. First version of the community controlled MeeGo distribution would be basically stable MeeGo 1.2.something with applications and other things you expect from a Linux distro. The important thing about this is that it wouldn't be a fork and it would meet the compliancy terms. I hope this is a hard enough push to make this happen.

Having this would of course bring other freedoms like the ability to include different UXs like Plasma active, cordia or whatnot.

At least I would contribute to this effort.

misterc 2011-08-07 14:52
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timoph (Post 1065517)
Good. that's why I wrote the page and the installation script so people can do that if they choose to.



You'll find the kernel from the the same place you take the image (the .raw.bz2 file). The kernel is the file that's name ends with e.g. vmlinuz-2.6.37-42.6.DE-adaptation-n900

And about the eMMC installation. While you are free to do that - you should know that the performance is better when running it from e.g. class 6 memory card. So I'd recommend using a class 6 memory card and booting it using uboot. Doing this doesn't require flashing/loading the kernel. Besides it's simpler and the preferred way.

ps. If you end up doing the eMMC installation don't get fooled about the "takes about 10 minutes" message. In reality it takes something like 20-30 minutes.
thank you for the "link" & the extra advice :o
had actually found How to Get MeeGo on the Nokia N900
even though it is from last year for 1.1, it mentions the '*vmlinuz*' kernel file too :p

i have bricked Fremantle on the 2nd N900, so i need to reflash it anyway and i though i would do it with MeeGo right away...
then again, i do have a class 6 mmc available, so i might as well flash Fremantle and use that as a test system.

would you mind if i update the eMMC page to mention that an install on an external MMC card of class 6 or higher provides better performance?

PS: would Fremantle on an external MMC perform faster then on the eMMC as well? ¦:-}

misterc 2011-08-08 11:14
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timoph (Post 1065560)
Very true. To push things back to the topic I'll copy-paste what I have to say about the matter from MeeGo forums:
okay, last digression about N900 running MeeGo on a... MeeGo thread.
on a N900 forum.
obviously strikes me as a capital crime, no question asked :rolleyes:

dd.ed mg-handset-armv7nhl-n900-ce-stable-1.2.0.90.11.20110728.1.DE.2011-08-01.1-mmcblk0p.raw.bz2 to a mmc
WIP, indeed.
wasn't able to get wi-fi working (have a psswd which is a little more complicated then the 1st girl-friend or pet's name so just typing it in isn't an option; was able to SMS it, but cut & past doesn't work, thus...)
3G is available, but network set up does not seem to work
but could also be the fact that i use a pre-pay SIM in the secondary device.
bottom line being that i'm unable to install anything.

considering that dd.ing the mmc is fairly easy, i'll give it another try as soon as a new stable release is available, but 'til then...

thanks for your time!

EDIT: had a doubt whether Ctrl+C was implemented, so decided to give it another try w/ Ctrl+X
turned out that before i had a chance to do that, a pop up suddenly appeared after i had selected the proper text offering either Copy or Cut :D
it is not consistent, sometimes works, sometimes doesn't but, well, Cut / Copy / Paste are available :cool:
then, Settings didn't want to open so rebooted & opened that 1st, praying that SMS would still, Copy / Cut still pop up...
did, but the connection doesn't work, nonetheless :(

lbt 2011-08-10 12:09
Re: A significant day in community governance?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qole (Post 1063537)
What? No Diablo support? I am APPALLED, Sir! :eek:

;)
Hey, seriously ... this should be possible. I'm not going to try but I'm sure we'll work with any nutters that want to. Issues would probably be around the potential redistribution of the binaries that the OBS tends to permit and possibly about getting qemu to run the sbox-oriented code.


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