Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Reggie, Texrat,

can you please close down this thread so we can... close this saddest of chapters of TMO?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Why Close a perfectly good thread? we Need and ask the council thread, It its not wise go take a thread like this in the direction you all just did and then just close it. you Ruined the thread ;) I think the thread shall be open. Just Dont discuss your power strugles in it.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

General question: who is the Council now? AFAIK, according to the results, SD69 took second place in the elections, does he get "the job" back? And, if Estel abdicated, does the council count 4 members insted of 5 or is Aries included as a replacement?

@ivgalvez: thank you, I don't know how I could miss the wiki page, sorry for stupid and unnecessary question.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

As you can see in the Wiki page, the Council is now formed by four people with Woody14619 as chairman (marked with a *).

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

there was an "ask the Council" thread that run up to nearly a 1000 (or possibly more) posts in the past.
it makes sense to have a new "ask the Council" thread when a new Council starts.
even though the current members of the Council have already been in function for some time, they will hopefully be able to start working on their actual task rather then having a crybaby taking up most of the attention.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Nice of you to post two large pages of insults and lies, and the follow it up with:

While I don't want to promote your view that the world revolves around you, I feel I must put out a few small clarifications. To that effort, I'm posting simple facts so that the community can made educated decisions when reviewing what's happened here.

• During an election, no one is guaranteed to be re-elected, not even the person potentially asking for a new election.
  
• Sometimes people are willing to chance an individual loss if it results in the community at large to benefiting.
  
• I live in NY, currently in EDT (UTC +4). And I generally have lunch from 12:30 to 1:30 (16:30 UTC to 17:30 UTC), plus or minus 30 minutes. Last Friday, I was at at goodby lunch for a work colleague from 12:00 until 1:45.
  
• I stand behind and acknowledge everything I've said, even when I discover I'm wrong on a topic, as many here will attest to.
  
• I'm willing to wait for someone to answer my questions if they're busy with other work, and have never quit a job because someone didn't reply back to me within a couple hours.
  
• I also do what I say I'm going to do. I don't say one thing and then moments later change my mind and drop everything because I feel like it.

On the latter point, I assume you will not be following up on the action items you took during the last meeting, since that would impede your newly found "free time". But then why should these action items be different from any others you've taken?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Woody,

i appreciate your frustration accumulated over the past month or so and still vibrating.
and i say this as the one who debunked and to some extend brought the fall of crybaby.

still i'm not sure what there is to gain in antagonizing him more?

is there maybe the possibility to post a list of tasks that are left "unattended" and have members volunteer to look into them?
i myself have my hands (& head) full with issues much more pressing then even the worst news about NOKIA may bring, so i won't be able to do much, but i'll do what little i can.

hth

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

/Estel

Ps.

Why asking, if You have already assigned them to Yourself, as per Your proposition for meeting minutes, that You've sent to Council's internal mail (for which, I still have - unfortunately - access, despite my kind request to remove me, send to current chair, if this function even still exist at all...)?

Lie got short legs, so end playing "little politician" and go back to work, "chair". You don't have anyone to blame now, and Your "transparency" myth is busted, so better watch Your step - people will judge by results of Your (lack of) work, no Your wanna-be-smartie lectures & tricks, presented in this thread.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Am I dreaming?
(ex) councilmen are trolling each other now...

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Too bad it is true :(
im really sad about what is happening over here
hope nobody will leave this community.............. :o

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I think it's high time that the bickering done here in the public is taken to private conversations with the goal of sorting things out and the resolutions made pubic.

Even I have to say (ironic or not) that it ultimately weakens the community.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Yeah, this isn't even entertaining :-(

(Texrat: I stand corrected)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i think it's good. As before not everyone understood who Estel is, now he is showing more and more his true face.

P.S. i always wonder about whom he is talking while always saying "now community can see the truth" and things like that. Does he still believe people actually would trust him after all he did/said?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

trolling in private is called harassment...
isn't there already a law against that @ least :eek:
¦-)))))))))))

what's pitiful with this case is that it involves directly the Council; this indeed does nothing to further the cause of the Community :(

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

patent case of person being delusional...

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I think its time for you "serious" people to think what you post around here. I have to say personally that you made a mess of nothing, sure you are allowed to make points if you find something you don't agree with, but you forces this small snowball to a big ice cliff. and for what? when does it end?

If you don't agree with something, vote for someone else in the next election and stop backstabbing, talk about other people and why they have done or said stuff you don't have a clue about. You are acting really unprofessional and you are hurting the community much more than you know.

I lose faith in most of you here and I cant say that even if i like to post useless posts and strange things I would never go after someone like you do, I maybe post my critics against someone when i think its necessary, like now. But when I made my point I move on. You should all do the same.

You think you all are right all the time. Take a step back and ask yourself what you trying to achieve with this never ending story. Be the bigger man and give in and move on.

You act like Rookies...

...I don't want see another post in this thread or simular thread from any of you unless it's contructive. Good day!

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i may simply point out to you that nobody forces you to read the posts but obviously on a Council thread posts should be Community related, indeed and not about one person only...
unless that person is a member of the Council who posts a lot of garbage on the thread.

that's why i suggested a few days ago that this "Council" thread is shut down & a new one started, to close the chapter :rolleyes:

still an option, mind yourself :D

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

The request was forwarded, but took a couple days to process. We got confirmation yesterday, so if you continue to get Council mail now, please let us know so we can look into it.


Our focus is now fully on the community. Foremost on our agenda is creating a foundation for the continuation of the community as support from Nokia spins down. We presented an initial draft of bylaws for the new entity on the community ML last week, and will be posting an updated version to the blog, TMO, and possibly the wiki for further discussion in the very near future.

There's a lot to do, and limited time to do it in. Anyone who would like to contribute (on any of the multiple projects going on) is welcomed to join in. How would one do that you ask? :)

Council holds weekly open meetings on Fridays @ 18:00UTC (Freenode, #maemo-meeting). All are welcome to attend and contribute. If you are unable to attend but would like a topic introduced or discussed, or would like to volunteer for projects, you may always mail Council {at} maemo.org with your topic, concern, or request. I also prepare minutes for each meeting and post them to the Council Blog with links to the raw channel log within a few days of the meeting.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Dear council, with all the changes ahead can you see any in the pipeline that could affect the voting mechanism for the coding competition? As we did with last year's competition, we would like to use the maemo.org council voting functionality for deciding winners and ranking entrants. The competition runs to early September and we're aiming for voting to commence a week after.

Thanks for looking into this for us :)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

We have the compromise from Nokia to maintain the servers until end of year, so it shouldn't be a problem.

In fact, the idea is to use the same mechanism for next Council election.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

turning upside down or inside out...
does this mean that you got official notification that as of 1st of january 2013 NOKIA will shut down

• the Maemo.org site
• repositories
• all the dev infrastructure

?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

any news about Friday's Council meeting?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Minutes should be posted tomorrow. If you'd like to read the raw logs, they're always available on-line.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

thank you!
i quickly overflew the minutes but didn't see when the next meeting will be...
i was travelling (end of) last week so couldn't attend.
if i know the next schedule ahead of time i would like to try and log in.
also would like to discuss my "decentralized" idea about "survival" less to convince others then maybe get advice on how to proceed.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

As noted a few times already in this thread, Council holds weekly meetings on FreeNode, #maemo-meeting every Friday at 18:00UTC.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Hi council, we received an update from SD69 that there's a possibility that the voting mechanism may not be available for the coding competition after all. Although it's really worrying news, we appreciate the notice and hopefully we'll have a contingency in place if we need it. That Plan B would most likely be based around forum polls, and it would require council help and assistance from Reggie. Could you take a glance over my reply in the competition thread and let us know your thoughts? Also please let us know if there's anything that could be problematic with this approach.

Thanks for your assistance, much appreciated.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

kojacker, are You aware, that voting mechanism used for election is quite simple, open sourced, and can be hosted by anyone, using basically every basic hosting service, without additional costs?

At least it was what I remember from last election problems and discussion about it.

/Estel

// Edit

I hope that Council can help with this - running voting mechanism on other place than it was done in past, would be great practice before holding election on own infrastructure.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

For a simple voting mechanism, yes. For this particular application it's not that simple. You seem bent on this logical fallacy, so let me address it plainly:

For the Coding Competition (or Council elections, or a referendum, or any other thing where the community would vote) you need to do a lot of leg work AND have a host that's well beyond a "basic hosting service". To address this plainly, lets break this up into how the whole thing happens:

Step one is setting up the service (scripts mainly) on a site that people will trust to not have a bias, or that could be hacked or tampered with. That alone is actually a lot of work, since "the machine" is not just a simple package, but also needs a ballot created, with options and steps and all that mess. And beyond setting up the scripts, it needs to be on a site setup and maintained by a group that people will trust to not alter the election or that's easily hackable.

Step two involves generating a list of the thousands of people who are eligible to vote (via Karma, or sign up, or what have you), and sending them an e-mail with their validation token and a link to the voting machine. Most "basic hosting services" would terminate you after you sent out a few hundred e-mails with a link and a token, yet alone thousands of them. And don't say "there were only a few hundred votes in the last election!" This isn't voting; this is hanging out tokens to ALLOW people to vote. Lots of people get tokens but never vote. But by the rules of the election, they need to get those tokens.

Step three is the part we're all familiar with, where we vote, get our validation token, and the results are stored for later review. Traffic for that is pretty light, even with thousands of people voting. But the CPU and database activity would probably make most "basic hosting service" take notice, assuming they didn't have issues with you during step 2.

Step four is making the vote lists available and tallying the results, which again, can be done on just about any device. But there again, to host and make that data available to thousands of people... a "basic hosting service" may take issue with that, based on CPU (validating votes) and traffic.

Over all it's time consuming, and at the scale of thousands it limits the choice of how and where such things can be done. There are reasons the CC asked to hold the vote on Nokia's servers: They are a trusted/neutral party, that's 90% setup already, that already has a provider that won't smack them as spammers if they blast out a few thousand e-mails on a particular day to willing recipients. (Or will at least work with them if they do get detected and shutdown automatically...)

So can you please stop with this continued falsehood that hosting a vote for everything and it's grandmother is a "trivial" thing, when clearly that is not at all the case?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Bylaws proposal has been published.

Everyone please, take a few minutes to read it carefully and provide your feedback in that thread.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

First of all, i don't think that people would have trust issues with *any* hosting service, that Coding Competition leaders would decide to choose. After all, it's *not8 organized by Council, so no trust issues (pun intended ;) )

As for the rest, nice long post, but X-Fade (as someone who ensured last election) seems to not share Your opinion. He presented it clearly in bug report about last voting.
---

It's all less important that question which follows, though:

What are You - as a chair (responsible for handling votes) - proposing, to resolve Coding Competition concerns about voting, that was supposed to be handled by council's election mechanism?

It's all we need, not n A4 pages of explanation, why You're right and others are wrong. Stick to the merit, please.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

You speak quite authoritatively on this. Tell me again how you know Neils' opinion? Have you talked to him recently? You do realize that things have changed quite a bit in the past month, yet alone the past six?

Again, you speak authoritatively on things, with no factual backing.

The Chair is responsible for announcing Council is entering the election cycle and starting that process. The Chair is not responsible for "handling votes", nor is it in charge of all things vote related.

Even if it were the Chairs responsibility to do so for Council elections, this is a third party event, which as you noted is not at all related to Council. The CC voting was never "supposed to be handled" by Council. If it were, they wouldn't have even had to make a request to use the voting machine.

Initially we were hopeful that we could provide this service to CC. After recent changes, and discussing it with X-Fade, we as Council have concluded we must politely decline their request. That was conveyed to them a bit ago, and they are making alternate arrangements, as noted by kojacker above.

I spoke directly to the "merit" above. The fact of the matter is that setting up the voting system is a non-trivial task for something on the scale of CC or Council elections. I spelled out the reasons above mainly to make it clear to the community what was involved so they could judge that for themselves, instead of relying on assumptions and opinions.

Here's an idea: Since you clearly think this task is so trivial, why don't you donate some of your "free time" to setup an independent voting system for CC? I would be quite happy for you to prove me wrong on this if it means CC can get their votes done in the way they would prefer.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Can you 2 stop fighting? This accomplishes nothing at a time when we need to stick together and keep tmo and it's next version up and running.

Seriously, take your personal dislikes to pm, this is becoming childish on both ends.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Since this is the ask the council thread, I have a question to the dear Council:

What have you accomplished in the past 6 months, apart from the well known infighting and awarding devices to yourselves?

Thanks in advance.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Quite sad, that most important question:
What You - as a chair, position closest to voting mechanism - and Council; can do for Coding competition, to fulfill (promised, even if it's disturbed by 3rd party events) handling of voting?
...remains unanswered.

Sure, I will gladly donate my time to help Coding Competition, if it will be in real need on doing it all on their own. But before, I would expect Council - as people elected for such things - to actually help. Resorting to "random" guy like me is a last resort, IMO. Suggesting it, when asked for precise answer about specified problem, speaks poorly about You as both Chair and councilor as a whole.

Do we need to read it as "we don't care, do it on Your own!", or are You going to actually answer kojacker's and mine question?

/Estel

// Edit

While this question is asked in offensive, biased, and out-of-the-line manner, *actually* some "summary of things done" would be great, too.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Well, the question's style was inspired by your average post's tone. :)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Please stop nonsense, with "I would do on my free time". If you wan to help, do it. And don't try just to prove that you better or something. All i can see for now is talking, and some fire you start by mentioning you can do it, but no actual deeds. Help is when you help someone with no intentions for popularity or "thanks" at this forum.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

So, please stop trolling this thread, as there is serious problem with voting for Coding Competition. I understand that CC it's not important to people like you at all, but we don't want it to be flooded with spam. Thanks in advance.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Sorry for flooding again, but i can't walk by. How is your question is more important than his question at Ask the Council thread?

I think as well as you asked question once, and you even said that you "know solution" . And more of it you said it's easy and you can do it. Why don't you just help, instead of asking council all over, can't u let go? So i think you are the one trolling here and flooding, as well as you decided to tell the person that asked question important to him ,asked council, and they would decide if it's rude or not to answer. But you answer him(starting flood here), as well i don't think your question and answer are polite. So stay on topic, and stop with children games.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Still no answer to my question. Just as I expected.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Sorry... We were somewhat busy with other things. This is, after all, vacation season, and recently also a holiday in the US.

But since you asked:

Currently, the Council has created a set of bylaws, which has been presented to get community input on and soon will be up for a vote for community approval. That's just one minor part of the work we have been doing on forming a foundation to keep TMO, and other important resources the community needs, up and running past December. This has been a lot of work, including negotiations with Nokia, and existing service providers (including Reggie) on how, when, and where these transitions will take place.

We've also (as you backhandedly noted) voted on an distributed awards for the community as we were tasked to do by Nokia and the Community as we were first seated. Btw, I'll note that not all Council "awarded themselves" devices.

There have been several other tasks we've done, including work around trying to keep cOBS on track, repo/builder issues, working with other groups to handle internal disputes, and more.

There have been many things going on over the past 5 months (not 6...). A good chunk of which is quite visible in the meeting minutes/(b)logs of the Council. Yes, some of it was "infighting" and some of it was misdirected banter about IRC and what not; that type of thing happens sometimes.

If I may though, I have a suggestion for you, and the community at large:

Rather than throwing stones, consider doing something a little more productive. Take a look at who was involved in and/or who started, handled, and/or finished which issues (be those positive or negative in your opinion). Doing so may help you not only see who's done what, but give you a more informed viewpoint when it comes time to discuss candidates, ask questions, and vote in the next election. It will also give you important information you'll need in the event you decide you can do better than those already working on the Communities behalf, and run for a position yourself.