Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Sure it is. In this thread defending and supporting our select ed council while several people want the winner to give away their prizes which to me is trolling.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I might not be? Yeah, you are right of course.

Who the hell do you think you are to preach me, some kind of moral foundation? Do you think of me like I am some 15 years old teenager you should unveil the ultimate answer to? Am I preaching you? Why do you think you are in a position to judge who is a liar and who is unsavory. Which community you speak on the behalf of?

What I express here is what I think and know, take it or leave it. I wont bent my mind for as long as I think I am right. And will apologize with all my heart once being proven wrong. Do it. Prove me wrong.

And if you don't trust me, well, I don't care. Really.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I don't think Estel or anybody giving up their device needs to happen. That's rather unrealistic and won't simply happen.

Instead... we know that there was a slight conflict of interest. It's been blown up way too big, but defended even in a bigger way.

The rest, I kindly request that we all allow cooler heads to prevail. Please.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I have stated more than once that I can only speak for myself.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Well, unlike some of those who accuse me of being a liar and some others accusing the Council of having a financial interest in CA, I actually read what is written. Here you are:

Anyway, thanks for all the fish. I won't participate in that soap opera anymore.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

You've read the thread. Some people are stating what I said. You asked, I didn't deny nor confirm it. Some people are showing in this thread how well they trust you people (Council) - it reads to me like very little if at all due to the actions of the person at question.

Are you a liar? Don't know, I said you maybe one. Maybe not.

At this moment, I don't particularly have enough reason to trust in the Council to endeavor an answer.

Like it or not, it's because you're associated with that individual. Like we say in the USA - if you lay down with dogs, you might get fleas.

And you're the second person from the Council to state that you don't care what I think. Starting to think that's another reason why you people (Council) think you could have done whatever you wished.

Who knows. By now, nobody cares. I'm done with this thread and this corrupt Council. You do not represent me in the least.

Continue to line your pockets, speak to the people of this forum in anyway you wish when they disagree with you and if they condemn you due to perceived collusion, attack them until they're as apathetic and weak as your morals seem to be.

Good job!

And yes, the above was an exercise in hyperbole. I truly just do not trust you guys any longer. No real reason to, no benefit to doing so. None of you really... but that's my take away from this all.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Pal, you are pathetic, you even didn't make the effort to check who are the members of the current council :(

http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_Council

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Then I stand corrected.

Regardless, the damage has been done in regards to what I stated. Folks like Jaffa, qole et al have past tense represented this forum in a better way.

In regards to the one person you're seemingly taken up for - he's a waste of my time mainly due to his disregard to treating people with respect.

I know that will bring another vitriol-laden response, I've stated earlier in this thread before you took exception to my earlier statement. Lie, don't lie. Serve the community or serve yourself. It doesn't matter really.

The damage has been done, imho.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I think you missed a post. The accusation against Estel by SD69 was a misinterpretation of what was said in other e-mails and communications. Estel said quite clearly, very early on, that he was participating.

I think you and Gerbick both missed this point.

And yes, there was some internal spitting going on with this topic too. So congrats to all on not only ripping the community apart, but also sewing disharmony in the group that's supposed to be working together to keep things going and keep the lights on, should that be needed in 6 months. Bravo.

What's that group of farmers with the pitchforks over there doing? And why are they carrying torches?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Really? I until now I've been reading and listening to what you've been saying. To lump everyone in without knowing details (or making up your own) is bad bad enough. Not even knowing who's on Council while forming opinions about "them"? (Btw: Yes, I'm on Council.)

I wise person once told me that I should take the time to learn about things before I comment on them. And that I should know the history of things before judging others for their current actions, which may be based on that history. I'd reference the post, but it's so old it's in the archives at this point... I wonder now where that person went.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

again, you are confusing the message and the messenger, so to speak.
everyone wants to know clearly (transparently) according to what rule(s) the devices were allocated.
no matter how you made up the rule(s), if the rule(s) is (are) that 1st of all each member of the council should get a device, no matter how you try to justify the rule, it is simply not going to fly.
if on the other hand the allocation of the devices is based on the sum of

• number of posts in IRC meetings
• number of applications (versions) tested
• number of wiki topics edited

each possibly weighted, this is objectively quantifiable.
of course there are going to be ppl complaining that if they had known about it, they would have made more comments in the IRC meetings, tested more apps, edited more wikis aso, but nobody is going to question how you came up with the rule.

to the issue at hand, answers of the council to the criticism... having each member answering more or less independently on various locations is turning it into a personal fight.
1st rule: if the council is questioned, no single member of the council replies, even if the attack is personal.
sounds like Public Relation talk?
that's what it is alright.
you need to realize that the council is seen as an authority and thus has to show authority, even if it hasn't any.
you is a figure of speech here, of course.

1 council = 1 voice.
and this definitely shouldn't be the 1st one hitting the Submit Reply button :mad:

rather being silent and letting the doubt linger one is a fool then talking all along and proving onself a fool...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

You know... I've been rather lax in my responses until now.

Congrats to us for ripping apart the community? Seriously?

First of all, you have a troglodyte that somehow bashes out insults between grunts in the form of Estel. How the hell he was even considered for the Council amazes me and knocks my faith down a bit. He's rude, he's obnoxious, he's perhaps the only person on this site that I truly hope goes the hell away from here. He needs a muzzle and learn silence when addressing anybody other than himself in the mirror.

Your tone at times is hard to swallow too. There's blunt, there's curt and there's you... brash at times to the point I overlook your posts because you come in where everything looks like a nail to your sledgehammer tactics.

Face it, you people are the worst Council since I've been here and I've had epic misunderstandings with other Council members; they had tact and showed me how well they can handle a situation where misunderstanding(s) were more rampant than it should have been.

Instead, I've had to report Estel's posts twice. I've had to endure being told by one of the Council that he doesn't care what I think about his doings. He's part of the Council. Which ****ing part of being a representative of the community and responsible for your actions is he lacking? He keeps getting a pass by saying some of the most crass stuff here allowed at TMO.

Long story made short, **** that dude. He's a brute, a jackass and does not represent a damn thing that I'd consider community worthy. He's shown his true colors and is out to only do what he can to line his pockets. He talks down to us, then goes into another thread and basically kisses Qgil's *** in another thread moments later.

You want to defend that? Then you're assisting and validating that kind of behavior.

And no, I don't even fully support the behavior on this side of the fence. I feel wronged. I don't like being in a situation where I am now under the rule of a dimwitted imbecile that thinks that he's able to talk to whomever, however he wishes.

And your tone dude... at times, way too harsh, over the top and unnecessary.

Ripping apart the forum... please. You people are doing a damn good job of it without our help. Face the consequences that the communication was horrible, the responses were worse and to continue down this path whereas you act innocent, rubbish.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

You defended that jackhole, it's likely you'll get lumped in with him.

Just like I've been lumped in with all of the other people that have stated various levels of outrage and required questions answered.

How fair is that to me? Don't pick and choose your offenses when you're likely just as guilty. How do you think I feel being compared to the likes of abill_uk and the others when I have been asking for answers, I got it, I said people need to chill out.

I point out the blatantly obvious that none of you people in the Council are willing to admit - this will go down for some as a black eye on this community. I know that's how I take it.

And yes dude... that's a very valid assumption that if you defend your compatriots, you're just as guilty as they are. It's been done to me.

Pot. Kettle.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

are you an ogre?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

for your information (check the link in my signature...)
he was the member of the current council with the most voices :rolleyes:

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

@Gerbik. I think you just went a little more hulk than elop right there... Maybe one 1/3 elop and 2/3 hulk.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Okay, this made me laugh. LOL.

Thanks.

I'm back calm, I've found my pants that were not shredded (how does the Hulk pants do that anyway?) and ultimately just will let the Council do their job. The answers in this thread - if wrong or right - offer a glimpse into a potential conflict of interest.

Dislike whomever you may, just understand why that may be so as opposed to assuming that you can harshly talk to them and convince them otherwise.

I'm equally as guilty and I apologize.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Stay tuned for the next episode of hulklop :p

On a serious note I think every thing has been said in this thread and on this matter.

Regards Dousan...

E: turned out otherwise...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Honestly, this thread is beyond ridiculous. I'm surprised, that even - you would say, reasonable - one like don_falcone started throwing accusations, before checking facts, actually. Well, man judge by himself, probably.

As for everything else, i literally LOL'ed, when saw that gerbrick doesn't even know who is sitting in Council, that he is accusing for few days now.
Man, I saw this dude history here, and despite fact, that his whole "contribution" for Maemo, over years, is just about writing river of (mostly useless) posts, I wouldn't foresee that. Bravo, managed to surprise me, by lack of trustworthiness and merit, even more, that I would think You're capable of.

Even oldest elders ;) wouldn't imagine best conclusion to this pathetic, miserable thread, started and "fueled" by equally miserable and pathetic ones.

R.I.P results outcry. This poor horse is officially dead.

/Estel

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Glad I can't see what you're writing. No need to waste more of my Tuesday.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I take that you're the above montioned horse.

You know when you point a finger at someone two is pointing right back at you.?

It's a western thing you might not know it in your non-western part of the world? Hint!

You must be alienating your self alot with that behavior, but then there's always karma. Good luck with that.

Regards Dousan...

E: lol who put 'loveisintheair' in the tags... classic...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Is that you Donkey?! I can't see in here! Go get Puss in Boots; and tell him to bring a lantern and a shovel. Whatever this is, it's pretty deep in here! http://www.emofaces.com/png/15/emoticons/shrek.png

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

The imagery... now I have to explain why I'm laughing this hard.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

F*ck, I just ran out of popcorn.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Yes, you've barely started with the ad hominem attacks... until this post.

What was that you said about a mirror earlier? Was it really over 3 years ago we first clashed here? You do realize now that it was because we're more alike than we are different, right? Including in how we write here, and how "curt" we both tend to become.

That's the kicker. Where do you see me "defending" anything? Have I said "Yay Council for scooping 4 devices!"? Did I say "This was perfectly fine and moral of everyone involved!"? No. I said "The rules were made to allow this, long ago", and I said "I brought this up several times, and everyone dismissed it". I also noted that I was one voice, where many other voices held the other line; including the Nokia rep handing out this "$40K" prize, and 4 other Council (or 6 other nominees, depending on the time frame).

Read what I've written, and show me where I'm "defending" anything. That assumption is coming from your head, because you want someone to blame for this. So bad that you're not even caring if those you're aiming it at are even Council. What is it you seek? Justice, or revenge for some perceived wrong? It's looking more like the latter to me; thus the comment about pitchforks.

What will you do about that? You sit and expect me to throw some magical fairy dust and make this all better, with some mystical power you assume I have because I was elected Council. I have no magic dust nor mystical powers. I have no clear options to correct this. This was months in the making, by those in power well before I had any say in anything at all. And every time I ask what options others may see, I get rhetoric, jive, or silence back, doubly so from you.

Because you're judged by the company you keep, right? Even when it's an elected position? Because you always disagree with every government official, since some of them are corrupt. My association is political. What's your association with those on your side in this thread? Mine is voluntary to a point, yes, but yours is even more so.

I could use this as a reason to leave Council, walk away from it; who would fault me? But what would that accomplish, besides sending the whole works into a death spiral? We could wind up like we were last cycle with one active Council and the rest non-active. You want that?

But when that defense is assumed and not based in reality... then what?

Tell me, do trial lawyers go to jail with their clients when found guilty? Why not? They were defending a criminal! They pointed out problems in the law, and showed where things went wrong, even if they disagree with the end results. They should go to jail too, right? Especially when they're working pro-bono.

Pot/Kettle isn't the right analogy here; it's eye for an eye. You feel wronged and attacked by others, so you in turn wrong and attack others. I think we both know how well that works in small communities. Without considering that someone pointing out the flaws in the process may not be "defending" the process, just because they're doing so calmly and not screaming for heads to roll.

I've learned since we last talked. I learned that screaming doesn't actually cause much to get fixed. Asking questions often does. I've asked one question, consistently, and have yet to get one single answer to it.

You feel wronged? Try walking in my shoes...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Wow, this thread is turning philosophical. Time to order some doughnuts...

Had me a trick and a kick and your message,
well you'll never gain weight from a doughnut hole.
Then thought that i could decipher your message,
there's no one here dear,
no one at all...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

And I've stated that I was done with the attacks. They don't help a damn thing.

I can appreciate your honesty. 3 years ago and now.

But you've stated that you've asked a question over and over and it's not been answered. Seems like I have not seen it; so point it out and I will gladly give you the best answer I can conjure.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Oh good God almighty... :(

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

ssshhhhh.....
There are some enjoying the thread heat. :p :D

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Or singing around. I would held mini-contest (without prizes ;) ) for identifying song, if not for google that kills all the fun :(

And if I'm wasting all your time,
This time
Maybe you never learned to take.
And if I'm hanging on to your shade,
I guess I'm way beyond the pale

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Thanks for appreciation, and I'm gonna quote myself since, I guess, the idea got lost under bashing and brawling. Now, this could use some comments:

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

And I yours, so let's keep this civil and see if there's something we can come up with that will fix this.

I've asked it a little differently each time, to try to get it answered, but I've been pretty consistent in my ask:

In fact, one you replied to it directly once, in a less than optimal way: ;)
So far don.edri has had a few ideas, as has chemist. Both are in the same vein though: to set up a policy to prevent this in the future . Others, like you, seem to want to see something done now, which is why I ask the question:

What would you like to see done?

I can tell you, removing awards from the list of produced winners is very likely not an option. Even if it's petitioned for, I doubt it would happen without a large swell of support. You'd also have to get the ex-winners that aren't in the "redefined" winners list to return the device, another unlikely scenario.

It occurred to me today on the drive in that for the most part (of the 25 devices) only about 3 are being debated. All this, for under $2K in prizes; less than it would take to run TMO, wiki, the repos and builders for a month or so.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Quoted because it's the most useful piece of information we have been given.

Thank you Woody for making this clear and stating this for us to know.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

To be clear, this is an estimation of what I think it would cost, based on what I know. I do not know how much Nokia is paying for services, or what said services will cost in the final analysis.

I suspect it will not be a huge amount though, especially if we are paying for just services and not people to maintain them (which Nokia currently does). I suspect the maintainers will be volunteers, not dissimilar to how moderation is handled here.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

So... can we, as a community, move on and do as don.edri proposed? Set-up a fund for e-eyes and itsnotabigtruck to get their well deserved devices? I've already myself donated to itsnotabigtruck. Maybe many others have too.

But what about a collection to get both of them a device if that's what many of the community feel strongly about? I for myself wouldn't feel bad at all donating again to such a collection to get them a device.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

So they have no devices?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Of course they have. But doing development on a device you're supposed to use as reliable communication tool as your main day-to-day device is not very nice. Double so for the stuff itsnotabigtruck and e-eyes is doing.

EDIT: I think with the above I assumed the reader would have some understanding on developing on these devices. That's unfair assumption. So I'll try clarifying here: when developing on the device you're basically messing up with the intended use of "normal" usage of the device. Trying things that might work or might not. Even with pretty "playing by the rules" development you will feel safer having a dedicated development device to test the stuff on, and another device that you use as your day-to-day phone that just works. But with the stuff itsnotabigtruck and e-eyes are doing, the dangers to making your phone unusable are much bigger than a normal applicatiion development - you really do want a dedicated testing device for that.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

That's the tricky part with hacking. You lock down devices and noone official is really gonna give you a device and you can't win it either since nokia won't allowit/needing in store.

I'm in for donating even if I don't planning to use none of their hacking. Directly. Would be fun with a donating bar and then maybe even vote would gets the devices?

Why do they deserve devices while others don't?
Again, that is the tricky question.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

as a member of the council, could you please abstain from making judgmental post that contain no useful information?
it doesn't help anyone and it damages the council's image.
former is true for everyone, later not.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

That was my original path. We agree, let's stick to that path.

I think all I wanted was a bit more transparency in how things went down. SD69 and you have been the epitome of that thus far.

So what would I like to see done? That in the future - if there is one and so far there aren't - that if there is a conflict of interest, request past Council members to step-in and be a objective voice in those concerns. All conflicts of interest should be made public if they're known. In most cases they might not be known, we're depending on your honesty.

To have one person know that he was going to wait until the last second to request a device and still have a say in the proceedings is a conflict of interest. The proper thing would be to have removed himself from the decision making process since it looks downright shady despite how he doth protest.

Now, forward thinking, the council makes decisions on our (Community) regard all the time. I think that process has been pretty transparent and via the official Community Council threads, that communication has been consistent and if we're interested, there's quite a few ways to check those decisions and discussions.

What do we do about this current situation? It's over, it's done. Do not try to re-allocate the items, even if this is the last time Nokia gives anybody any devices, it's done. We know that Estel will not give his device up - probably will post ABBA lyrics in his next post <shudder>

Quim is handling the Coding Contest and it's going very well. This one, didn't go so well. Water under the bridge; in the future if any of the council wishes to participate, they should not be on the board of who makes a decision in that process.

That's my take. The rest, continue as you have (past tense).