Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Welcome to Jolla! But really, all the alternative non-Android devices are on this very forum...

If you install the Android support then you will have two copies of Android. Right now you have only one, so at least it matters :)

Well I'm sure it's not "impossible", just slightly difficult...

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Mmh, well not really. It is not so straightforward. @pichlo, You can be assured that the Jolla device is not Android, it is Linux: pure and simple.

However, it does contain parts that are made for Android, and this is out of necessity:
Because HW manufacturers like Qualcomm that makes the chipset that's ticking inside your Jolla will not create device drivers for Linux, a clever trick called libhybris is used to enable the Linux ( = SailfishOS in Jolla) to use the Android drivers.

This is unfortunate fact-of-life for us, almost all HW vendors think this way, they see only Android as a viable OS and will not create Linux drivers, not even when offered large sums of money to do it!


Again, no, not really :D
@javispedro you have to stop frightening poor @pichlo! :D

If you install Android support (and If, as like Ihave not done that...) You will have only the upper layers of the Android stack running on your device, not the whole shebang.


It's doable, what is needed is just the new kernel hooks and interfacing to the existing (and open source BTW) libhybris functionality.

What it requires, of course is recompiled libraries and new kernel. That's the reason @rainisto says it is "impossible"; it is not something you could ever submit to Harbour :D

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

So first update 9&10 get combined, but they now reverted that statement and only update 9 will come? Or were people in this topic confusing me about update 9&10 combined?

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Sure that is indeed a cleaver and pretty much only possible way. But I'd like to point on one thing:
The Android drivers are still undocumented barely working binary blobs - and even with all the libhybris magic, they will still be as broken as when running Android as with Linux (Sailfish). Or even more so due to the possible slightly different requirements of Linux/Sailfish triggering less tested functionality, etc. And unfortunately as these are blobs, Jolla can't most probably do much about it other than bugging the blob-provider or working around the bugs (watchdogs, additional, wrappers, disabling functionality, etc.).

I think these buggy drivers might be the effectively unfixable root cause of some of these issues people report to be having with their Jollas.

As if Harbor acceptance was a major concern when developing for Sailfish. :) Thankfully Sailfish is not a walled garden and users have multiple options for getting software for their device, such as Open Repos, OBS, self hosted repos, direct package download or even building from source.

Discounting a perfectly valid usecase just because the result "might not be in Harbour" is total nonsense! And who knows, Jolla might need to reconsider their Harbour policies if different extra-Harbour applications get even more popular than their already are. :)

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Thursday is the day. I've said it before and now I said it again.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

I'd suggest that it is worse than disappointing. Jolla made a big thing about how the Android support on the phone was simply a filler whilst waiting for all the wonderful native apps (which they've then hindered by making it difficult to release software in the Jolla store because of the rules, and by still not having the ability to charge for apps). They then make a big thing about their partnerships - and then the first bit of software that supports one of those partnership is ... an Android app. And it took, what, 7 months to do that?

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

And yet I suspect there will be those that somehow excuse this.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

I agree, if I want to run android apps, I buy an android phone full stop. Since I've reinstalled SailfisOS I have not bothered installing Android applications, they just devalue the phone.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

This is *perhaps* not entirely true. Meizu have their Ubuntu pre-loaded MX4, and Ubuntu ROM for existing MX4 users coming in December. It's possible that Mediatek has produced native drivers for Linux, rather than using their existing Android ones and running it through libhybris (which Ubuntu also uses). This is a very high volume device from a big OEM. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that drivers for the main SoC will be native (though I'm sure everything else will be Android).

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

You also have to ask if it's even feasible for F-Secure to launch a native app currently. There are major under the hood OS updates in 1.09 and support for Qt 5.2, and as Jolla have chosen not to update SDKs prior to release of new updates, the SDK will be ~3 months old by the time it's updated (best case). There's no paid app support in the Jolla store (still) and complete silence on the issue, and there are still major strictures imposed on developers wanting apps in the Jolla store.

Jolla seem to be very behind with Sailfish generally, and their 'monthly' updates have flown out of the window, with it now being 10 weeks since the last update.

Is this an ecosystem and situation you'd be diverting resources to, in order to build a native app?

Also, in before the 'partnership' with Rovio results in Angry Birds Android app in the Jolla store, whenever they finally add paid apps.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Well MediaTek != QualComm. (AFAIK MT is Taiwanese private comapny, while QC is commercial arm of US military intelligence development)

And moreover, Meizu >> Jolla (when talking about cashflow for example...)

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Well you said "like Qualcomm" and Qualcomm's only two serious competitors are Mediatek and Samsung.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Yes, that's true. I guess Sammy's almost the one manufacturer that has complete specs of its SOC (the Exynos ones at least) so they can write the drivers and blobs themselves...
And do not forget Apple :D The same goes with it.

All others are in the mercy of the SoC vendors.

For some really obscure reason that quite escapes me, HW vendors think that revealing too much in the driver is going to enable other companies to copy their IP and make competing products. (If that'd be really the case I'd be really surprised... competitors already know almost all of their rival's products)

I rather think they are just embarassed of the poor quality of their code, or else they have something fishy hidden there :eek:

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

10 weeks? No. There wasn't supposed to be an update for a few weeks because they were on Summer Holiday. So you have to count those few weeks out.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

No. TI OMAP is also a serious competitor. Mediatek has become more popular taking over some of TI's marketshare, but TI OMAP is still very much used as well.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Omg that is terrible. All this time stringing us along, that is a complete joke.

On the plus side NFC payment now works apparently ;)

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

@vistaus
TI OMAP pulled out of consumer electronics. So is competitor no more.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Then what is Motorola using in their brand new Moto 360 smart watch? Oh wait, TI OMAP!

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Yeah, a 3 year old SOC.....

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Doesn't matter if it's old. If they had pulled out, then they wouldn't have sold Motorola any SoC at all.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

It's 10 weeks however you look at it. The rest of the world doesn't stop because some staff take 2 weeks summer holidays.

Wrong. You're just making stuff up now. TI OMAP ceased to exist 2 years ago and only exists in legacy mobile / tablet products. They've withdrawn from the market completely. AFAIK their embedded systems products aren't called OMAP anymore.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Wrong. You're just making stuff up now. Moto 360 is powered by TI OMAP and that's a device that launched 2 weeks ago...

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

5 year old ... they're using it because there was probably a surplus they could buy for almost nothing, or the same to have a few made.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

You're just trolling now. There is no OMAP division at TI, as I'm sure you know now after no doubt googling it. That entire part of TI was wound up 2 years ago. Ignored.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

So everyting "interesting" announced in February has turned out to be vapourware. I though I bought a smart phone, now I am just smarting at what I bought.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

So the Moto 360 is a brand new device powered by a non-existent SoC? Why would TI sell Motorola a SoC for a device that's gonna be a big hit (hint: look at how many Motorola sold in 2 hours after launching the 360! and that's just the start) if they don't want to do consumer electronics anymore?
Surplus doesn't matter. If they stopped doing consumer electronics, then they would've said no to Motorola.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

The specs for the MOTO 360 say it is using an OMAP 3 processor - the same generation of processor used in the N9. TI hasn't released a new OMAP processor for smartphone/tablet use in 2 years as has been pointed out earlier. They're probably still sitting on a whole bunch of unsold parts that they want to dump.

You're not going to see any new smartphone using OMAP going forward. The only serious competitor to Qualcomm is Mediatek at the lower end, now that they have a working LTE modem, I don't think Samsung's SoCs have an integrated LTE modem. Intel has an applications processor, but no integrated LTE (yet). They do have a stand alone LTE modem though.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

So if TI runs out of OMAP3 SoC's before the 360's heydays are over, then the Moto 360 will be the shortest to live smart watch ever? Because if we look at the current sales of the Moto 360, they have sold an incredible amount of 360's already, meaning TI's stock of OMAP3 lying around is gonna run out very soon.

Intel has ARM CPU's but no LTE Modem AFAIK.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Potato, tomato :D
One might argue that Sailfish already contains the "lower layers", and that Alien Dalvik brings the "upper layers", except that they don't actually talk to the Sailfish lower layers but rather to Alien's "emulated lower layer".

I don't plan to make any effort to hide this because it is the sad truth. It is a compromise that I wish it need not have been done. In a scale of priority, however, I put it as less important than releasing all the Sailfish sources and ... GPLv3 bash :). Just because I can imagine the difficulty involved.

Actually it is beyond the realms of possibly to think that Ubuntu will get native drivers. Specially not from Mediatek to begin with.

I was not lying when I mentioned all remaining non-Android phones all have subforums on this website.

Ubuntu Touch is Android (libhybris)-based too, as is Firefox OS (the later being 'more Android' than Ubuntu or Sailfish).

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

If Meizu wants native drivers for the SoC, Mediatek will almost certainly not refuse. They're very big, and soon likely to be huge. They're also an incredibly valued customer as they're shirking Qualcomm entirely, and indeed it's their stated policy. Besides, if Ubuntu looks like it will take off, then having native drivers for their SoCs will be an asset for them in the fight to win business from OEMs intending to release Ubuntu phones / ROMs. But it is probably unlikely at this stage.

Dunno why you want to jibe at Mediatek? I assume you're one of the camp that is frustrated and flummoxed by their prior policy of not releasing drivers / source etc for anything. They're a young company forged in a hyper competitive landscape in Taiwan / China, where if they widely distributed their code, competitors would appropriate it and use it in their own products within months. Now that they're big enough, and are now competing with the big dogs, they can afford not to worry about knock-offs and code-stealing running them out of business. Hence why their policy has changed lately. Their policy was borne out of necessity, not because they want to lock everything down.

Personally I'm grateful that there is an emerging competitor for the virtual monopoly of Qualcomm, especially as they're not US based. Samsung as of yet aren't competing head on.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

I wonder if they'll order more chips from their fabs if that were to happen.

Intel definitely does have LTE modems - http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/mobile/modem-solutions.html

And their smartphone/tablet platform is x86, not ARM AFAIK.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Yeah, I also wonder what's gonna happen there. Will TI let the Moto 360 die in its heyday or will they produce some more SoC's that they wouldn't want to produce anymore? Interesting point of debate.

Actually, Intel does have ARM CPU's due to a partnership: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/int...ips,15923.html

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

I will say I had never heard of Meizu until now, but I will assume that I'm a self-centered dinosaur and accept your premise.

Wait, there are too many premises to accept there. IF Meizu gets big enough, IF Mediatek trumples Qualcomm enough so that they get to have some muscle power over the graphics IP companies, IF Ubuntu looks like it will take off, IF Canonical decides that having open non Android drivers is an advantage (and not an opportunity for lockdown)...

I just wish I could believe any of them would ever become true.

That erroneous belief is exactly why you're not going to have any luck trying to get any piece of _useful_ information from Mediatek. And obviously not a driver.

http://i0.wp.com/www.gizchina.com/wp...g-mediatek.jpg
"Scumbags" is not the word I would use, but it would be very close.

And this is about their smar****ch attempt, ie 2014. They were worse before indeed.

I don't want to live on this planet any more... none of these names have even made any attempt to be much OSS or even basic privacy/hackability friendly...

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Well, under GPL you are actually obliged to ship the source code to only the ones who got the binaries from you - so the partners bit is fine, if you conder all end users of your devices your partners. :) You can also require a - reasonable - fee to provide the sources, so that's also fine. On the other hand, NDA is of course totally out of the question in case of the provided GPL source code. :)

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

The article says Intel is building ARM core chips for a 3rd party, and is very light on details. All of Intel's smartphone platforms right now are x86.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

I know. I didn't say they have ARM CPU's for smartphones, I said they have ARM CPU's which is true because they manufacture them.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Correct. Now compare: http://omappedia.org/wiki/Linux_Kernel_Int_Trees

And don't get me wrong, if any manufacturer started doing "the right thing" I would switch to them in an instant. For a time, after the FOSDEM talk which praised them, I started keeping an eye on Allwinner, but it seems that they went 180° , despite the fact that they even joined Linaro. My hopes are really down by now.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

All I'll say is that you're likely to see significant changes with Mediatek .. they wouldn't have participated in the Android One programme if it was their one and only prerogative to close and obfuscate.

Hadn't heard of Meizu? Well, in China their pre-orders for the MX4 hit 7.7m before they had to shut them down and then delay the device by some weeks due to the colossal demand. It's why Canonical's deal with them is so huge, rather than being "just some Chinese OEM" as many people thought when it was announced that Meizu / BQ were the launch partners for Ubuntu Phone. They're likely to make a big splash in EU & NA next year, too.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Actually, even though they're not really marketing themselves, they have been selling in EU and USA for a few years now. The MX series has been officially sold in the EU and USA since 2012. (and if unofficially counts, then 2010 because the M8 and M9 were selling through some 3rd party web stores that imported and sold them in the USA as well)

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

What. A. Bunch. Of. Offtopic.

Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 

Well, to be fair, I did ask an ontopic question a couple of posts back but no one seemed interested to answer that question and continue ontopic, so I just went along with it.