Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Duh... sorry, I meant Bluetooth A2DP isn't supported natively in Mac OS 10.4 Tiger - native support for A2DP is coming in Mac OS 10.5 Leopard.

I'll believe that when someone cracks open their Touch and confirms there is no Bluetooth chippery present on the circuit board... :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

iTouch is useless for me cause it doesn't support 3G phone for the data connection.

Using mobile phone with the N800 is really simple task. I got unlimited 3G/HSDPA data plan (costs 10 euros per month, my Nokia N80 supports only max 384 kbps connections) and browsing (or whatever you want to do etc. listen 192kbps webradio stream) is fast enough.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'll bet you Texrat's paycheck you're wrong.

That's why we own N800s/N770s.

Then Nokia's current lineupof the N770 and N800 isn't for you.

Translation: I forgot to do basic research on these devices and found out the hard way they aren't for me. Buyer's remorse I guess.

Web browsing is pretty much excellent, made even better with the latest firmware, and even "mo' better" with the microb beta browser.
The email client sucks though.

You mean the same things the iPod Touch lacks? You want Citrix for the N800/N770 then go talk to Citrix since it's NOT an open-source program.
If it were you can bet your bottom dollar that someone would have already ported it to the Nokia ITs by now.

About time you got something right in your post.

Oh really? This being the same Safari-based browser that the iPhone has?
You know, the one WITHOUT Flash and the one that doesn't have the screen size or resolution of the N800?
Sorry, but that's a laughabl statement at best.

Several people have already proven you worng on that point.
And browsing with the N800 via BT through my N95 in Europe on a 3G connection it's pretty damn fast. As fast as browsing on wi-fi for me.

They did. They gave it Skype and VoIP capabilities, Flash 9 support, and not one but TWO web browsers (Opera and one based on Mozilla code). Then they went and made just about the whole thing open-source and provided a free SDK for it. They also gave it Bluetooth which can be "hacked" to provide the missing A2DP support presently missing in every Apple product to date.
They also gave it a free built-in FM radio.

Can I borrow your time machine? Or at least get the name of your dealer for whatever you're smoking.

While I wholeheartedly agree about the Newton being one of the best PDAs ever made (the 2100 rocks!) it didn't "die". Steve Jobs killed it. Matter of fact, there are still plenty of Newton User Groups out there and - get this - they even hold MEETINGS and CONS! Someone even went and made a Newton OS emulator that - gasp - runs on the N800! Something else the iPod Touch and iPhone can't do.
On my N800 I'm running both Palm OS and Newton OS. That's three different "operating systems" on one small handheld device. I'm not seeing any current handheld devices from Apple that claim the same.

The main problem with the N800 is Nokia's absolute LACK of advertising for it on U.S. shores, pathetic marketing for it across the globe, and their overall pi$$-poor marketing in North America period.
Two "flagship" stores does not a hit make.

How is the iPod Touch going to "kill" a product no one in the U.S. has heard about and never bought in real numbers anyway?
That's the equivalent of saying that a tiny micro-meteorite hitting the moon will kill off the N800.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

The thing o remember here is hackers are totaly attracted to the iphone and now the touch , its sexy and a challange, like the psp.. hackers are going to do things with these two products that apple never even thought of doing... the hackers are going to make these into a very very attactive device for all us n800 users.

look at the psp hackng scene, you have a smaller genera there and have pepole diong stuff with a totally locked product that are unbelievable..sony fights them every step of the way and the hackers always overcome them.

Apple knew these would be prime argets for hackers and I bet there counting on it to propell ther device to new levels.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I think Apple has a winner with the iTouch and I might buy one.

I bought a Nokia 770 when they were first available. The most important applications on the Nokia 770 suck; the media player, the browser, and the email client.

Re: Media Player. I see more "Resolution not supported" errors than I see videos. Mplayer does a great job of any video you throw at it.

Re: Browser. This is the best application of the three, but it pukes on many web sites and doesn't support flash very well.

Re. Email: This sucks so bad that I refuse to use it. I use webmail instead.

Re: 3rd party apps...this is where the Nokia rules....

Now, I am a Linux desktop user that uses thunderbird and firefox so I know what applications can do on Linux.

The thing with the iTouch is your videos will work. You know you can go to youtube. You know that the web browser works.

You also know that Apple will support its product and offer continual updates, instead of one or two before they drop it.

To me...iTouch wins hands down...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I have to agree the email app sucks - someone criticised the Touch (not iTouch - different product!) because it doesn't have email like the NITs but to be honest, the NIT email is so bad the device would be better off without it - it's an embarassment.

Fortunately, modest is moving ahead and should be a worthy replacement. No idea when though. :(

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I definitely think that the ipod touch substantially reduces the potential market for buyers of the n800.
I think from now on the vast majority of consumers will look at the n800 as say "so what, an ipod can do that AND hold 16gb of media".


I'll bet Mark S's paycheck on it! :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

if we're boiling it down to closed vs open, of course you'll have options with open source stuff, but it won't be polished and "just work" like the close sourced stuff.

i think that's just a fact of life.

of course the new ipods are gonna outsell the IT. They're aimed at different users. However, if Nokia were to come out with something just as polished and open and connected to some type of open system, then we'd have something.

First thing's first though, Nokia needs to settle on just ONE system. No more lifeblogs, Ovi, MOSH. PICK ONE and start building it out. Then use the IT to leverage it as not just a web browser but also a terminal into something great. Which is what Apple has done with the iPod & iTunes.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Support yes, but not necessarily anymore functionality of the device over that present in the shipping product.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm not totally convinced that this is true. I think there is a large overlap. It's this overlap that nokia will lose to apple.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

nokia already lost those users from the get go. why? because most of those users will walk into a store and not find an IT to play with.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

so. is the n800 dead yet?

seriously... wtf nokia. get your sh*t together.

i'm just waiting for the meizu minione now. i'm so over this.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

The key word where you are mistaken is "substantially". That just ain't gonna happen folks, for the very reasons iball and I have clearly stated.

Very small number of potential N800 users who would jump *wholesale* to iPod Touch. And in fact, based on some posts here, those are users who would buy the N800 by mistake and sell or return it eventually. So... no real dent there, sorry.

And those who think the number one communications device maker in the world is gonna roll over because Apple introduced a cute media player are out of their league in this discussion. :p

Different markets. Different devices. Different goals. Meaningless, miniscule overlap realistically.

For the life of me I cannot imagine why such a simple thing is so difficult for some to grasp.

And that wager is for anyone. ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I know I am off topic, but I don't want to start a new thread on this... For anyone that hastily bought an iphone prior to the price drop, Apple announced that they will be giving $100.00 credit to the early adopters. Considering I'm one of the putzes that falls into that category, I am quite impressed. Yes, I still did pay more for the device, but Apple being a company for profit, they did not have to offer anything. This is a decent olive branch.

Sorry to get off topic.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

That's nice. I'd rather have more real programmers attracted to the N800 - like they currently are - than "hackers" with sloppy code practices.
And look at all those PSP "hackers": 99% of them do nothing more than create a theme, build something in pathetic LUA code, or do a silly/stupid modification to code someone ELSE has already done (i.e. "custom firmwares"). You can count on ONE HAND the number of true PSP programmers.
Don't you dare compare the pathetic circus the PSP programming "scene" has become with what is happening with Nokia's Internet Tablets.
The two cultures, users, and market couldn't be more different.

THe PSP "hacking scene" as you call it has a nice open-source SDK for it and lots of homebrew developer support to surmount any serious issues that programmers run into.
So does the N770/N800.
The iPhone/iPod Touch does NOT. And a future firmware update to those devices in the future could possibly (probably) break any "hacked" software made to run on them.

Any company who depends upon "hackers" anything to "propel" their device to new levels doesn't deserve to be in business because it would show they have no fcuking clue how to run a business.
Apple - like Sony if you look deep enough - gives two *****s about your so-called "hackers". Sales matter, period, and "hackers" anything does NOT sell a goddamn thing in the business world.
Functionality and ease-of-use right out of the box do.

You want an example? Fine. The GP2X series of handheld devices have paltry sales numbers yet they are marketed as good for "hackers" and based upon open-source. Problem is, the hardware they went with is pathetic and they haven't figured out yet to throw wi-fi and bluetooth on the damn things.
Now, the same could be said of the N800 but the N800 has at least three things the GP2X doesn't: better word-of-mouth and reviews in the press, better hardware, and better battery-life.

Seriously, with some of the comments I've seen in here lately looks like some of you need to either go to school or go back to school because a lot of you don't know the first damn thing about Basic Business 101.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Decent olive branch? You do know people have ripped apart the iPhone and done a parts pricing on them and found out that Apple is charging an unsubsidized price more than DOUBLE of what it cost to make them, right?
The only reason the price is dropping on the iPhone is due to Apple recouping their R&D and initial manufacturing costs in the first batch of sucke-um-early adopters.
Apple is basically telling you "Thanks, sucker, we made our mint off you here's a Benjamin. Now go spend it on some more of our products."

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

So iball, according to business 101, what is the desired endgame for nokia internet tablets? and how does iphone/ipod touch relate to it, if at all?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

But if Nokia cancels the IT, you don't have a paycheck, right? :p

But seriously, I agree that Nokia IT probably will not go away or at least there will be at least one more significant upgrade to it. They will play to their strengths to attempt to differentiate themselves, and will not try to be slicker or cooler in their SW development to match the iPod/iphone in that way, although there may be a nice google UI on the WiMax version. Likely candidates are increased connectivity i.e., WiMax (if Sprint doesn't stumble), 802.11n, bluetooth 2.1 and pairing improvements, etc., that Apple historically hasn't done. It will be interesting to see if and how there is an OVI tie-in. They may also speed up the next version which was probably going to be mid-to-late 2008 otherwise.

Interesting though how quickly they have become competitors - just the last 3 months. the iphone, then OVI, and now iPod touch. I know Nokia did not consider Apple to be a major competitor 12 months ago. It will be an interesting 2008, especially if Intel gets into the space with their MIDs.

The company that this might concern the most in the short term is not Nokia - it's AT&T (unless they already knew about it). Who is going to buy a iPhone (+2 yr AT&T contract) when you can get an iPod touch and your choice of phone for less? Especially if BT DUN is eventually supported.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm not iball and I don't know the answer but I think the N770/N800 thing was an experiment to see how open source community could work with a hardware manufacturer in reducing the traditional costs around the Nokia products. If you read Qgils and Ari's statements it seems that Nokia is quite pleased with what they were able to achieve and the costs involved in product launch and development. As for the future I think Nokias involvement in the whole MID movement with Intel etc is a good indication that they are not dropping out.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

ah well, with attitude like that best to add me to your ever-growing ignore list then mate!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Off-topic, but how many people on ITT own the Nokia N-Gage? Is that a dead product or is Nokia still providing updates and support for it. I hope the IT doesn't end up like that.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Attitude?

Umm. Okay. :rolleyes:

Anyway, it amazes me the claims a few are making here regarding the N800 vs the iPod Touch. Claiming that similarities between the two will result in the N800's demise are naive at best. I think that proclamation is being driven by unfortunate experience with the tablet(s) and/or rapture with the Apple mystique. ;) Shame on Nokia for the former, kudos to Apple for the latter.

But anyone who buys either product without conducting proper research is, in my opinion, a risk to themselves. I have little respect or pity for anyone who "stumbles" into a $400 purchase for anything.

In addition, surely no one makes a buying decision on similarities between even truly competing devices-- they form their decision around the distinguishing features. The similarities are a given; those are the basic requirements. The determining factor in selecting one device over another comes down to purpose and value. I think we've hashed purpose over sufficiently and value tends to be very subjective... but the fact remains that a major part of value is the distinguishing features that will compel a consumer to hone in on his purchase.

Apologies in advance for any attitude, real or merely perceived, apparent in this post. :p

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I think you're sort of confusing 2 definitions of "hacker." There's the hackers that explore devices, take them apart, try to get them to do things maybe the manufacturer didn't want them to do. Then there are code hackers, people that write apps to do nifty things and/or port apps around on different platforms. There's overlap between the two sometimes, but not always (this is roughly the distinction between hardware and software hackers, but applied to consumer devices).

Frankly, as a code hacker, I have zero interest in Apple's iPod/Phone products, because they've made it very obvious they don't want me writing stuff for their platform. Yeah, maybe somebody throws in a monkeywrench somewhere and warps a device to where I can install an app on it. I'm still probably not going to bother, 'cause it'll be such a pain I won't want to deal with it; I just want to write code in the easiest way possible.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

To have a successful product. What Nokia's definition of "success" is anyone's guess.
Most strive to break-even by recouping R&D and manufacturing costs (game consoles follow that model) or even profit, but some use products like this to "push" the market forward. I think Nokia's endgame is to raise public awareness of the whole "Internet Tablet" thing while at the same time get valuable feedback from IT users and to watch it closely to see what folks are actually doing with the device.
I don't think they saw the whole "CarMan" thing coming though.


It doesn't. The only time it "relates" at all is when some uninformed jackhole makes a *****ic "comparison" and declares the iPod Touch will somehow "destroy" the N800.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Unofficial, but BT may be included- http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple/ipo...ort-296938.php

I've read that the BT in the iPhone is severely crippled and with the iP being a "closed" device, unlike the N800, I'm sure the iTouch will be similar- i.e. bt for headphone audio only. So not much there......

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to see a beautiful product like the iTouch come to market, but I still think it's a version 1.0 product and I'd wait til 2.0 before considering a purchase. Until then for me it's-

-iPod shuffle 2g for the gym and cycling
-30gb iPod vid for the car (music, tv and pod/vid casts)
-Archos 604wifi for trips (wide screen video/tv, pod/vid casts and photos w/ dig cam offloads), viewing video on the home tv (ipod harddrive is too noisy) and watching movies in bed

- and, of course, the N800 for internet/online portability and a little of all of the above (the only one I have on me all the time)

I know..... way too many toys, but that's the way I have it worked out until someone offers that one magical device :)

Cheers all!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I doubt BT is "hidden" in the Touch since it could lead to serious cannibalization of iPhone sales.
I'm the same way you are with my devices: Shuffle 2g for exercise, 60GB 5g iPod for car (w/Alpine iPod adapter), N95 for podcasts/weather/RSS feedreader, N800 for Exult & Ur-Quan Masters & web browsing & email-on-the-go & portable note-taking & Skype.
Right now about the only thing I use my Macbook Pro for is running XP Pro (Parallels & Bootcamp) for those few sites and applications that need it and running Ubuntu (VMware Fusion) for my Scratchbox work.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I disagree. Think about products like Firefox, Thunderbird, Kopete, K3b etc. They are all open source software that is very mature, polished and indeed just works. On OS level I have to say that I've had way better experience with Ubuntu compared to Windows XP. (Haven't tried Vista) Internet Tablet's OS & software isn't quite there yet but it doesn't mean that it's impossible.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Funny- Loading Boot camp and xp pro on my MacBook pro is the project of the weekend for me (tired of waiting for decent games for mac :) ).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Just some observations...

First:
From what I have seen the iPod Touch is basically an iPhone with no phone.
Why all the noise now? The same arguments could have been made when the iPhone was released. (iWhatever vs. N800)

Second:
Now that Apple has dropped the price of the iPhone by $200, won't the early adopters feel stupid?
If so, what would compel anyone to buy the new iPod's now knowing that Apple might drop the price on them a month or two down the road?

It seems to me announcing the price cut on the same day as the new models was not very bright...

... unless they are sacrificing the sales of these new toys so that the can realize their stated sales goal of 10 million iPhones in the first year.

I thought the purpose of Apples phone was the convergence of two devices.

Third:
The N800 can not be marketed aggressively until at least Chinook...
Nothing finished has been developed for it yet. Even third party apps line Navicore are lacking simple supporting apps like POI loaders and such.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I've been watching this thread from the start, and I've seen some interesting points on all sides of the discussion. I'm pretty impressed with the iPod Touch, but not so impressed that I think the Nokia IT line is in any immediate danger. However, I do see this as a strong challenge for Nokia to respond to, and they had better do it quick.

Apple has made some very nice moves recently, and though it's still early in the game, Nokia has some work to do (at least here in the US) to make the game interesting again.

I'd still buy an N800 (or 770 for that matter) over an iPod Touch. There's just so much potential left in these devices to just abandon them now.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Apple are selling the Touch as an iPod, I think that they view it primarily as a portable music player.

Nokia pitch the N770/800 as Internet Tablets.

It seems to me that the Touch looks like a really nice PMP that can browse the Internet, but not very well because it has the wrong form factor.

The N770/N800 is a really nice Internet tablet that can also be a PMP, but not very well because it has the wrong form factor.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

The IT isn't going anywhere :)

This is a music player, guys, not a general purpose mini-super-computer.

http://geekpenguin.blogspot.com/2007/09/ipod-touch.html

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

After reading 16 pages, to me, this is the statement that sums up Nokia's position (and gives me hope for the N800 future):

"Suffice to say, bottom line, the NITs have been successful enough. That is, enough to support future development."

.
And although I personally could care less about a glitzy package, I still found this comment rather poignant:

"C'mon Nokia, put some lipstick on this pig!"
.
.
(Gee, my first post and all I did was re-quote.....)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

My... oh my. I've been reading this entire thread and invariably will open myself up to being flamed like no other... but it seems like the pending commercial success of the iPod Touch - a different machine with a different purpose than the Nokia 770/N800 - but it seems like it could be a sales hit that the Nokia team would love to have.

And why don't they? Why don't Nokia want those kinds of numbers? Out of fear since the 770/N800 isn't as initially user friendly as the rather - ok, I'll say it - "dumbed down" interface of the iPod Touch?

Why not present the N800 and what not as a more mainstream product? Why not bring the aforementioned Ubuntu UI out ASAP? Why not make the 770 not as obsolete so my purchase won't seem so much in vain!?

Ok... ignore that last point. But it does seem like a lot of late 770 buyers feel jilted since that means no Skype, Microb is all messed up, and no Flash 9 player (Ok, blame Adobe)... and why not even court Microsoft for Silverlight?

The ability to expand on the Nokia internet tablet currently outshines the iPod's invariably closed architecture. But as it stands, having two machines and stopping to support one wasn't too good for their image and possible future purchases.

But as it seems, nobody here wanted the Nokia internet tablet to be a commercial success. Or am I reading that wrong?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm going to attempt to answer gerbick's question (the overarching one) as succinctly as possible. However, I will have to dance around some touchy parts so bear with me. ;)

The 770 paved new ground. It was a risk on Nokia's part because it portended a new business model: a low-cost commercial computing device that deliberately embraced open source software.

It was unheard of.

I can't imagine any company wanting to invest much in an unproven device and market. Far better to manufacture a number small enough to minimize costs but large enough to create a reliable, robust data set from which to draw and analyze.

Let this sink in.

It would behoove any such same company to aggressively analyze said data so that, if the test device proved its worthiness, a follow-up could come quickly on its heels. A more polished, performance-enhanced follow-up.

Although that follow-up would be a little more mature, keep in mind its development cycle would overlap the market test device's-- meaning not all lessons learned could be processed in time. Still, there was a *potential* new market to be captured and if the data from both initial devices demonstrated that market's validity, and the ability to fulfill a new need (read: desire), then certainly any respectable company would want to own that market-- just as Apple owns the portable MP3 player market.

I've used the chicken-and-egg scenario to describe the N800 and its ecosystem and that's a good one I think. Nokia could have waited until a decent wifi infrastructure was in place in key markets before moving, but wouldn't a competitor take advantage of such hesitance? So the 770 and N800 emerged into an immature ecosystem, outfitted with stopgap measures such as bluetooth phone-pairing to deal with the dearth of ubiquitous wifi.

Now, all the tablets had to do was gain *enough* traction in order to rationalize further support and development of the platform. So who defines enough? Well, it isn't this community. ;) That's of course Nokia's decision. The fact that more devices are coming (a la Sprint/Wimax) indicates a strong belief that there IS a future for these tablets.

That's despite the hardware problems. Despite the software problems. Despite the apparent poor sales.

A lot of wannabe consumer electronics pundits with a failure to grasp and process context rabidly leap to proclaim the death of these devices every time something even remotely similar comes out. It wasn't just the iPod Touch-- the iPhone was supposed to kill it, too... along with a whole host of products with a related form factor and purpose, some of which are still vaporware.

The fact is the Nokia Internet Tablet isn't going to die because Apple came out with a nifty new media player. That is one aspect of the NIT's broad offering. The NITs are Long Tail products with a completely different intent and goal in mind. I doubt many people will jog with an N800 tucked into a sweat band, as they might with the Touch. Conversely, I can't see anyone playing Flash videos on their iPod. That contrast could go on and on but surely any reasonable person gets the picture.

Nokia has exhibited patience with the NITs progress, which should speak volumes. The devices may not be the commercial success that iPod Touchs will be in the immediate future, but then, the iPod already has a robust ecosystem, doesn't it? It doesn't have the same hurdles to overcome. It isn't the same device. Give the NITs a few years, though, and I'm betting they take off. And Nokia has already admitted to a mistake in the 770/N800 transition, one that won't be repeated.

Patience, folks. Curb your pessimism. There is more to come.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

You been spending too much time in Europe? On this side of the pond we're a sound-bite loving, day-trading, IM-addicted, oooh isn't that shiny!, adult-ADD bunch of folks. We want ( no demand ) it all and want it yesterday!!

Hurry Hurry Hurry!!:D

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Exactly! I get that, the problem is that now you're dealing with the "we want it now" mentality.
Some people don't understand that these things take time.
But Nokia also needs to understand one thing: don't take my "kindness" towards their long-interval info/product releases for being "stupid".
More effort on their part to actually keep those of us who are really into their Internet Tablet line a little better informed as to what's going on in the future would be greatly appreciated.
In other words Nokia, I know Apple. I own Apple products. You're no Apple.
So stop trying to ACT like Apple when it comes to your "flagship stores" and information pertaining to the IT line.
You'll lose our loyalty most ricky-tick that way and see a lot of folks jumping ship for the future Intel MIDs.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Agreed iball.

And andrbr? I fight ADHD everyday (mine and my son's :D). But those damned Europeans are teaching me patience whether I like it or not!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Odd. I must be the only American left who never had ADHD.
Of course, having lived in Germany for the last 13 years helps one learn to slow down.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'm not being pessimistic at all. I'd love for my internet tablet (nokia 770) to remain supported and me... I'd rather be happy with an expandable gadget with a great screen.