Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I sympathise with everything you say, these exact problems really do exist.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/nerd...e-33341671.jpg

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Yeah, the Gemini PDA looks like yet another of these billions of revolutionary IGG tech gadgets. It's smaller than a GPD and yet seemed to be more powerful with a larger battery. In fact, they mostly sold the case and the keyboard, but nothing in the specification list or software is set in stone yet, which is not a good sign. I really don't see how they can achieve what is advertised in the campaign in such a small form-factor and at such a price, and the lack of news is not encouraging. No matter how much I would like a device like that to happen, I don't think the Gemini PDA will be what it was supposed to be when it was funded. And I didn't know about these kernel limitations but that does not sound good either.

I'm still hoping that Neo900 will happen, but I admit I'm very concerned about the time frame. The device might just end up being more outdated when it comes out that the N900 was three or four years after its release.

My hopes are very high with Chenlianghen projects, although his Lauta-revival will likely not be something as open and flexible as a N900, Pyra or Neo900 since it may ship with Sailfish, it would still be a very nice smartphone alternative for modern days. And who knows, maybe we'd be able to boot something else than a phone OS on it, but I'm trying not to set my expectations too high on this point.

EvilDragon stated that making vents in the case would not require much extra work or any significant update of the mold:

Of course he only mentions the vents and not the actual mounting of the fan, but I guess he wouldn't emphasize on the fact that the case does not need to be changed for the vents if the fan, which is one of the main reasons why vents would be useful, would require more substantial work.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

That's interesting. What makes you say it won't be as open since it ships Sailfish? My limited understanding is that Sailfish is much more open source than for example N900 was.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

You're right, I did not realize but I mixed several things there. Please allow me clarify what I wanted to say even though it's a bit off-topic.

In fact I was not specifically talking about Maemo, since the N900 can boot other systems and chroot. This is part of what I had in mind. But then maybe Chen's device will be capable of booting other systems too and maybe the hardware will be properly supported and functional with these putative alternatives. However I'm afraid the community might be a little less active than for the N900, the device is probably going to be a lot more niche than the N900 was and many people have moved on.

As for the default operating systems themselves, I should just have said "flexible" and not "open". But even that might be incorrect. I always loved the ergonomy of Maemo, I believe it really is at the sweet spot between a tactile smartphone OS and a desktop OS, and that's a significant part of what made it flexible to me. Flexibility in its use (in addition to the aforementioned flexibility with alternative OSes and chroot), i.e. I was not sighing if I had to open certain file types or do specific tasks with it instead of a computer, even though a computer would be best in every case, and I can't say it's the same now with more modern OSes (I even postpone email-checking and replies as much as I can while a smartphone should excel at that task).

Of course the stylus and keyboard play a great role in that feeling on the N900, but it would not work if the OS was not designed with that in mind in the first place. The TOHKBD on Sailfish did not feel the same, although Kimmoli did a great job on the software part to allow system-wide key combinations like Ctrl+C, Alt+Tab, and so on. In fact, what I missed to really reboot the N900/Maemo experience with the Jolla and TOHKBD was probably just the stylus.

I think Sailfish is a great OS, but like Harmattan, it's mostly a smartphone OS made for capacitive screens in its current form. I think the stylus on the N900 and adapted UI totally changed the ergonomy. Capacitive is ok for simple tasks, but horrible and frustrating for anything that requires:

1. faster actions,
2. numerous consecutive or repetitive actions,
3. accuracy,
4. no obstruction of the display.

There is just no way using your finger can be more efficient than a stylus when it comes to quickly reaching distant points on the screen without being inaccurate, without moving your whole hand and wrist, and without obstructing the display most of the time. Capacitive styluses don't really make a difference, first because they don't feel the same, but also because capacitive means the OS is likely not designed and optimized for stylus use. Interactive areas of the screen are just not sized or located the same way, and the trade-offs inevitably compromise something else.

Just to illustrate in other words how I personally feel the gap between using fingers on a good OS optimized for capacitive screens and using a stylus on an OS optimized for it: using a stylus feels like using a mouse on a laptop, I can quickly cover every area of the screen with very small and yet accurate moves of just two fingers (against each other, so they are also more stable), whereas using fingers all the time for every application you can imagine, even tasks that can't be optimized for capacitive touch, feels like being left with no alternatives to a touchpad for filling a spreadsheet without Tab or Return keys. And don't get me wrong, touchpads are great for what they are, a very portable and well integrated replacement for the mouse. But really, filling a spreadsheet with no Tab or Return keys, and just a touchpad? :D

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Frame this somewhere and hang it up where the grandkids might pay attention - they are our only hope now

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

And yet, resistive touch screens essentially require the use of both hands, unless you've mastered a very particular claw grip, or if you aren't using a stylus, but then any resemblance of accuracy is a distant dream (there's a reason the resistive touch interfaces in banks and such have enormous buttons). The postman had me sign a delivery receipt for a package once on a resistive touch screen, with my finger! I managed to draw two short and unconnected lines before I gave up.

Both screen types have pros and cons, but I do think capacitive screens are better suited towards mobile phones and mobile devices in general. The lack of required precision (except on Android with its microscopic buttons everywhere) is very useful if you aren't sitting completely still in a calm environment.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

By this sentence, you made me think if both could be put on a single display...
As they are using different physical effects, they may not interfere.
Not sure which one would have to be on top (probably the capacitive, otherwise the resistive grid might shield it from the finger ?).

Searching on the net, I find mainly things about a patent by RIM in 2009 :
https://techcrunch.com/2009/08/05/ri...e-touchscreen/

and also this:
http://www.intomobile.com/2009/12/30...oming-in-2010/
(but the company closed in 2010 : http://www.touchco.com/)

Not sure anything as seen the light right now, but it would be interesting if anybody has info about this.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Very interesting idea, it does sound like it could combine the best of both worlds.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Exactly, but I find it far less frustrating to use both hands and manage to do something efficient with them than be left with no choice but using fingers on a capacitive screen and be clumsy (even if I still use both hands). A lot of tasks are really very frustrating with capacitive touch, and while stylus on resistive screens requires two hands (or one hand and a table), you can just use only one and no stylus if you want.

However, you are right that not all resistive screens allow such flexibility. Many resistive screens were just terrible. I think we all have a pretty high standard in mind about resistive screens because that of the N900 was particularly good and accurate for both stylus and fingers. The delivery men's legendary resistive screens are likely a better example of what most resistive screens ever were.

But this was particularly well done on Maemo if I recall correctly. Most buttons were large enough for fingers (remember the call application, the status bar buttons) and the form factor made it easy to reach the four corners with one thumb without impossible claw grip (opposite of the Jolla C for instance, too big for an OS based on gestures - including a swipe from top to bottom - while this was a non issue on the Jolla). Even the swirl gesture to zoom in/out was a clever one-hand feature that never was adapted to more modern OS; pinch-to-zoom is accurate but very uncomfortable with one hand (and it surely ended up in many phones being dropped on the ground!). I find it very surprising that no one seems to care about offering a better one-finger gesture for zooming, especially as it was already achieved and proved being convenient.

Yet, the stylus and keyboard provided much more accuracy and speed when necessary, which means we didn't have to compromise the experience for advanced tasks like text editing (selecting characters, managing the clipboard, changing the location of the cursors by barely moving the hand instead of reaching the screen with the thumb and struggling for 5 seconds until the random position of the cursor is the one you want, and trying to lift your thumb without changing it again...).

In the end, the keyboard/stylus/good resistive/Maemo combination was just much more potent and polyvalent, and again, I did not sigh if i had to do something a bit more advanced than just tapping with my finger on a notification to display a message.

If the OS is not compromising too much for making everything finger-friendly. Using a stylus on an Android or Sailfish phone to copy characters must feel just as frustrating as it is currently with fingers, if not more, and yet the solutions Google and Jolla (I prefer theirs over Google's) came with are probably the best you could imagine for selecting a series of tiny characters with big fingers obstructing the screen.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I think that I have had enough of not only the disposable smartphone world ..dominated by corps. with super crappy ..."everything"...(I can't just focus on 1 negative...there are simply too many...)

and I think I have had a lifetime's fill of "hoped-for" alternatives ...which just seem to keep on coming...but can't deliver what is needed (not that it isn't for lack of trying...)

I intend to keep farting about with my N.I.T.'s

But..
I am going to buy a pi 3 and turn it into a mobile mini tablet. ..
raspbian or arch is fine with me..
and the moment that the Zerophone starts their preorder ...order ..or what have you...
I am buying one.


I am quite sick of the deliberately constructed ..bottomless - money pit of obsolescent-based disposable toxic-landfill-creating wasteful devices that has come to be...
this "system" ...
which has invaded every nook and cranny of the industry.

for the longest time I have seen the pi and beagle, pocketchip ..etc...as purely "hobby" hacking...
it has steadily been showing that it is moving more and more deliberately and with a great deal of weight and strength behind the movement ...heading toward daily mainstream usage..

I am all for this alternative.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I have/had the exact same thoughts, when looking at the market right now. If I wasn't this lazy, I would've build such a device myself already
I'd love to see a thread from you, on how you gonna build it, though. :)

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

My brand new GPD Pocket (default Win10, to be sidelined)
has arrived,
but the unBoxing did not go exactly as planned.

I do hope she will give it back to me...

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

How much did this cost?

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

509 USD + shipping

at

https://www.aliexpress.com/

delivery was faster than I ever hoped.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Seems like you might have to order a second one...

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

What is the problem ???

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Heureka! It indeed attracts females.
9gaggers salvation. At last.

(here is one AliExpress seller with 468.55$ offer for those who need the 33$ DHL tracking option to keep calm)

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I see that you're also a man of culture. Nice to greet you, fellow 9gagger.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

As far as I see, there are a few possibilities in 2017:

GPD Pocket
Aside of GPD's horrendous communication, at least this project has delivered actual hardware. However the number of reports about faulty machines and GPD's sloppiness in reacting to these (see their indiegogo page) is kind of scary. At least there are a bunch of people for whom it works well, even though they ship with Ubuntu it does need some tweaking before it is usable.
But hey, this is the only device that you can actually buy out of this list.

Gemini
Basically the same form factor as the GPD Pocket, only a bit smaller. The keyboard looks much better though, and they have a great-looking design. They promise to deliver an Android / Debian combo, but haven't disclosed any details. However judging by the SoC vendor it is doubtful they can run a mainline kernel, and even more doubtful that there will be any kernel updates once the SoC vendor moves on. It's unclear whether the phone functionality will be availible on Linux, so it probably won't. Maybe the community can do it, maybe not. Let's hope they make it! I'm not interested to see yet another Android device. (Although it may just become one.)

Librem Purism 5
Good points: they have chosen a SoC vendor which actually seems to support some sort of a mainline kernel. They also recognize this will cost a LOT so have a high funding target (which either will or will not be met). However I'm unsure why they push their "PureOS". I do NOT care about yet another dead platform phone OS, I'd like to just run my favourite Linux distro. Aside of this, the hardware looks cool, but lacks a keyboard. I also don't quite understand Purism's laptops: they ship outdated but _very_ expensive hardware.

Neo900
I wish success to the project, but personally I don't think I would need a device of the 3.5" form factor anymore, especially not with 2009 hardware. Does not seem significantly better than the N900 to justify its price. Also seems unlikely to get released in 2017.

Pyra
At least this is more than vapourware, but not by much. The device sets realistic expectations with regards to size and performance, but I don't understand why they are fixated on "gaming controls" and that bulk makes the device look unappealing. Unlikely to get released in 2017 but at least the project seems to make steady progress.

"chenphone"
Looks very pretty and "nice on paper" but so far it's just vapourware. Until they make good on their current / previous campaigns, I won't take those guys seriously. Very unlikely to get released in 2017.

What do you guys think?

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I am really hoping that the chenphone gets released in 2017. I would most likely get it.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I agree the phone is still "on paper", because I'm working 100% on the Moto Keyboard Mod at the moment.

Moto Keyboard Mod has working prototype and we are working on final units for certification and launching. You can see on twitter @LivermoriumLtd It's not vapourware.

And on engineering side, the "Pocket PC" is actually being easier than Keyboard Mod. I don't see the showstopper for not being able to make it.

Livermorium is not a big company and I can't support 2 projects working together. Everything will be better once we get the first product officially launched with Moto.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I confirm the GPD Pocket is not perfect,
but it is very nice out of the box.
I have already begun testing various distros to get a handle on it.
Having a keyboard again is like being back in paradise.

[Using external RF and BT keyboards with my tablets is horrible,
but onscreen keyboards are also pathetic.
My ACER w4-821 power supply smoked last week,
but this arrival means the ACER will not be missed at all.]

The GPD Pocket probably has a few more bugs to sort,
but it is here, now, and not priced out of reach.
It can be bought, it can run linux very well,
and is not tied into whatever dreamscape some walled-garden-dev
wants to inflict on consumers.
And that is pure gold.
(Ubuntu Phone was and still is a miserable disappointment)

The Purism is a very hopeful direction,
but as I alluded to above,
if the hardware needs a specific software
then this locks out Linux solutions already coded and ready to go.
And makes creating new solutions a headache of learning new
integration steps.

If we cannot load and run something
open-source and completely configurable,
in favor of some dev group's idea of
what we must be running on their hardware,
then my interest will ice over very quickly.

It is my opinion the GPD Pocket is demonstrating a way forward.

The Pyra, if they stick to their plans,
should also be an amazing machine.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

@Venemo:
In my opinion the GPD people got one thing right (in contrast to the Gemini people) and that is providing a trackpoint. For me, this is indispensible when using a Desktop OS like Ubuntu. You definitely need a precision pointing device – otherwise any desktop OS is pointless. The N900 has a stylus and therefore Easy Debian is fine.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

GPD Pocket

I'm very pleased with my GPD pocket, though I can see some might not be.

GPD (it seems to me) obviously ran into some issues, technically and commercially along the way, and did the best they could in the circumstance. I think they were out of their depth trying to produce the Linux version (the way they present firmware images and git repos alone shows that). The various community members working on it have produced much better results. I installed Linux Mint from the Nexus511 image from reddit (f.hate reddit though:mad:) and it works really well. Theres a few things I probably haven't tested yet (microphone springs to mind) and as yet no data support on the USB-C.
My unit has the lid sensor / standby issue - cured by removing the hall sensor IC. I also found one screw missing internally when making the mod - not sure if that was deliberate or accidental, but I added the missing item without problem.
Build quality is excellent, it feels really robust. Only time will tell of course. IT's a little heavy to be pocketable, even if you have suiable size pockets.
It's a great little useable linux box. e.g. Last night I was working on a Mathcad calculation in WinXP in virtualbox on it, while sat in front of the TV. Also scribbled a couple of short python scripts and ssh into a couple of other machines. Battery life is great - I was at 75% after probably 3 hours use. Lots of times I wouldn't bother dragging my laptop to customer visits unless I anticipated wanting it - I will certainly have the GPD along in similar situations now though. (I won't be leaving it datalogging inside a lamppost overnight like I do my Toughbook though :eek:)

Gemini - seems it should be much more pocketable than the GPD. I was initially skeptical it would end up with a linux distro available, but that seems more likely now. Great pedigree on the mechanical design. If I had written an ideal device spec before this existed, it would have been close to this... Psion5 mechanics and form factor are probably as close to perfect as I can imagine.

Librem Purism - I think it's too soon to have an opinion. I hope they succeed - whatever they come up with will be some alternative to the major players, and that must be a good thing. Too far off for me to get excited about though :o

Neo900 - Reusing the N900 mechanics is too limiting IMHO, even if it had arrived in a reasonable time. To work at all, it would have had to be a drop in replacement while N900 owners were still using their devices daily en masse. Now it would just feel a step backwards, even with brilliant hardware behind the screen.

Pyra - haven't been following this one, other than it seems to have been 'around the corner' forever.

'Chenphone' - I have high hopes for this one. More a 'more useful phone' than a 'more portable laptop'. Chen has been very open about his design aims and decisions. I don't think Chen can ship this year, though I obviously hope I'm wrong. Thats not because of any doubts of Chens capability, simply cynicism borne of 25+ years doing hardware design projects. (I don't think he'll miss by many months though :D)

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

What about diy (pi) handhelds/machines?

http://www.3ders.org/images2017/zero...ted-case-4.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-co...size=550%2C309

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Hey Chen, I didn't mean what I said in a negative sense.
I really hope you do the Livermorium successfully (in fact, I'm a potential buyer), but I will place more trust in that when I see the Moto Mod and the Youyota released and the customers happy. (Yes, I know the Youyota is not entirely your project but you know its success will affect your reputation.)

Is the trackpoint really necessary in this form factor? When you're at a desk, you're more likely to just plug in a mouse; when you're on the go, you're more likely to use the touchscreen. At least that's what I think.

Nice to hear some good about that device, as their Indiegogo page is full of complaints.

They say you can run other distros on it as well, which makes me wonder even more why "PureOS" is necessary. Although their intention to enhance the Gnome UX to work on that form factor is a very generous. (And of course, costly.)

Nice to hear about the battery life. Other people seemed to have less than ideal experience with it, but maybe it has been improved with some upgrades.

What's your experience, is it possible to type on the GPD Pocket with thumbs? Can you use it on-the-go (eg. on a tram or bus while commuting), or is it too big for that?

Something I miss from the N900 / N950 era is to have a device with a keyboard I could use for IRC and email (and maybe lightweight coding) while commuting to work in the morings (and back home in the afternoon).

Indeed, let's hope they get it right!
Like I said, I like the Gemini keyboard much-much more than the GPD Pocket. So given the choice of the two, I would pick the Gemini.

Sadly, I agree.

Yep, that's my assessment about it too.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I don't have it at hand right now, but I was thinking about this last night, and the answer is no. I have large hands, but the GPD is a little too big and the weight balance is wrong, to hold in my hands and type comfortably, at least for me. I think essentially it's not comfortable to reach the spacebar with the thumb unless the device is too far forward in the palm to hold comfortably.
Then again, I'm not sure I've held a device like that since N810/N900 because touchscreens are too 'touchy' for my clumsy thumbs, so maybe I'm just out of practice.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

At least with the N900 the Stylus is indispensible IMHO when using EasyDebian because the desktop symbols are so small you cannot easily hit them with our finger. That is why Easy Debian on the N9 is not usable. Even when editing a document (one good reason for having a HW keyboard) a precision pointing device (along with the arrow keys) is very helpful to place the cursor precisely.

That is why in particular with a small screen I want to have a trackpoint or stylus. Admittedly, with the Vaio P I was missing the touchscreen (while I liked the track point). So for me it is good to have both.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

If I wanted to use a desktop OS with a small screen, I'd increase the font size or scaling (eg. in Gnome you can do both), which would effectively make it readable on the small screen and make the controls big enough for finger use.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Increasing fonts and symbols is one way of using desktop OSs on a small screen. I prefer to take advantage of the high resolution and keeping everything small. That's why I need a stylus or trackpoint. But I guess that's just me.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

That's okay. I take advantage of the high resolution screen by having readable and smooth-looking text, but don't keep it small. :)

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

The problem is I can't control the financial factors on it - it is not from my company and nor my product. I can't make others acting as quick as I do.

And I do not benefit from it, I can't spend too much time as my own product.

But I will do my best getting the product out for sure.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Are these any good?

I heard the Pi doesn't have any serious power management. :(

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

It depends on the intended usage...like anything.
From what I have gleaned... 10 hrs standby...
5-6 with average usage...
Adequate....
I am going to be doing a diy before spring...
I will let you know my results...

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

5-6 hours average usage is not that bad...not bad at all!

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

top heavy power consumptive and intensive application(s) (I would assume) would drive that average down.

properly installed kodi (used) would drain it quickly (I am sure)
proper telephony would drain it quickly (I am sure)
speaking of which...
a few things I noted were that ...the pi 3 b is on the whole considered "almost" to the point of desktop replacement...(as per statements from those who blind-ran applications in a plug and play fashion.....which says volumes unto itself...)
the only things negative I have found thus far...
is that:
some have noted the media players have issues playing film ..
some have noted that youtube playback has issues with speed of delivery without stuttering ...and tearing...

(yet again...these were the mentions from "open-box plug-and-playing" ....blind running applications ...without any kind of optimization, tweaking or testing.... to see how better run said programs.)

(So yes...
that being said...)

I would safely say that handing such devices to pretty much any of our community would most likely net a "good to go" verdict after enough testing and tweaking ...

Even with truly heavy use ...as long as it can make 3-4 hours before swapping batteries...
then that is bearable.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

You need to have a serious battery! :rolleyes:
(mine is 10600mAh)

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

hahahaahaha....
there is an agreeable solution.
problem solved.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

That's is what I was about to say!

At least we have the battery.
I got for US$45 an ANKER powerCore 20100mAh. Actually there is lower price at Amazon I can't wait to use it in a raspberry 3, when I got time to buy and setup a raspberry pi3
http://ascii.jp/elem/000/001/464/1464632/11_400x266.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-l29byN86c...re%2B20100.jpg

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Where is this one from? It is the best looking beast so far.
A bit bigger, with a stylus and taking standard AA batteries like the good ole HP 95LX and I would buy it in a jiffy:

http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/hp95lx.jpg

Something like that should definitely be possible to DIY.