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-   -   The new QWERTY device project (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=99632)

NX500 2017-07-28 20:05
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw (Post 1531526)
That's a good point, but it's quite nice in combination with a gesture based OS.
Indeed.

But Jollas approach, with a flat screen and a curved casing was nice too!

..but I guess, the additional bezel would make a 5,5 inch device too big.

nthn 2017-07-28 20:39
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
I really like this thread, it's full of good news and positivity. The slider phone won't be for me, but I wish you the best of luck in all your future endeavours. In less than a year, you've gone from "we might be making a keyboard addon for an existing device" to "we're recreating a lost device" to "we're making the first keyboard phone in a long time, with great specifications and an independent OS", it's incredible. I look forward to seeing everything that's yet to come.

mr_pingu 2017-07-28 21:54
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
I wonder if it's possible to install fullfledged distri's on these types of phones... Is it?
That would be really awesome :)

TheKit 2017-07-29 02:40
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_pingu (Post 1531544)
I wonder if it's possible to install fullfledged distri's on these types of phones... Is it?
That would be really awesome :)
You can relatively easily install fullfledged distro in chroot (both on Android and SFOS), but running it as main OS is going to be troublesome.
You need to use Android kernel to make it boot, but the distro likely won't have libhybris and all the phone middleware, and unless Freedreno gets ported, there is no 3D acceleration without libhybris, for example.

Metsämies 2017-07-29 04:58
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKit (Post 1531550)
You can relatively easily install fullfledged distro in chroot (both on Android and SFOS), but running it as main OS is going to be troublesome.
You need to use Android kernel to make it boot, but the distro likely won't have libhybris and all the phone middleware, and unless Freedreno gets ported, there is no 3D acceleration without libhybris, for example.
There are many chinese tablets with dualboot between win10/android, so SFOS is the problem without drivers? I'd like to have dualboot between SFOS and android.

Metsämies 2017-07-29 05:19
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1531509)

Display: 5.5" FHD 1080p IPS, Capacitive, 2.5D glass

The reason choose 5.5 over 5.0:
- More "compatible" with Moto Keyboard Mod's slider part, same size, less work
- More space on keypad, means bigger keys and more keys
- Bigger battery
Please add enough keys, for example scandic öä without pressing any other key. Your Moto Z mod have too big tab/shift/enter keys!

User replaceable battery would be good! And is it possible to have some branded battery so it is later easier to find a new one?

Dave999 2017-07-29 07:29
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NX500 (Post 1531525)
SailingChen
Haha. SailingChen must be the best name so for. Let's go with that until Chen comes up with the official name or approve this.

SailingChen
Display: 5.5" FHD 1080p IPS, Capacitive, 2.5D glass
Storage: 64GB ROM +4GB RAM
OS: Sailfish
$1199 at BestBuy

SlidingChen
Display: 5.5" FHD 1080p IPS, Capacitive, 2.5D glass
Storage: 64GB ROM +4GB RAM
OS: Android
$999 at BestBuy

Yeah the price was made up by me :D

nh1402 2017-07-29 07:33
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1531509)

Display: 5.5" FHD 1080p IPS, Capacitive, 2.5D glass

Storage: 64GB ROM +4GB RAM
I understand that this SoC only supports lpddr3 and emmc 5.1 and not the newer faster much more power efficient lpddr4x and ufs 2.1 probably for cost reasons (the Snapdragon 630 does support those, but is newer and probably much more expensive as well as the components)

But does the screen have Panel Self Refresh technology? The screen could still be power efficient, if the other components can't.

Metsämies 2017-07-29 09:10
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1531555)
Haha. SailingChen must be the best name so for. Let's go with that until Chen comes up with the official name or approve this.
"This "Lauta" device will be branded as Livermorium (Or simply L-Device) But Chenphone is also nice, could be our internal code name between Maemians

I don't want to call it a "Phone" - It is meant to be a pocket computer - as the "Internet Tablet" series that we loved."

mr_pingu 2017-07-29 09:21
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKit (Post 1531550)
You can relatively easily install fullfledged distro in chroot (both on Android and SFOS), but running it as main OS is going to be troublesome.
You need to use Android kernel to make it boot, but the distro likely won't have libhybris and all the phone middleware, and unless Freedreno gets ported, there is no 3D acceleration without libhybris, for example.
:( I want just to boot into arch or devuan. I don't need phone capabilities.

Dave999 2017-07-29 10:16
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metsämies (Post 1531562)
"This "Lauta" device will be branded as Livermorium (Or simply L-Device) But Chenphone is also nice, could be our internal code name between Maemians

I don't want to call it a "Phone" - It is meant to be a pocket computer - as the "Internet Tablet" series that we loved."
Livermorium?

jurop88 2017-07-29 11:10
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1531566)
Livermorium?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/k...r-the-moto-z#/

Dave999 2017-07-29 11:43
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurop88 (Post 1531571)
Why would it be branded like that?

john_god 2017-07-29 13:58
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1531574)
Why would it be branded like that?
And why not ? :)

Zero Six 2017-07-29 14:28
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
I think I need to start saving money from now....

btw, will it have a "standing foot" like N900?

Feathers McGraw 2017-07-29 15:55
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Six (Post 1531582)
will it have a "standing foot" like N900?
I don't think it needs it, chen said the screen will tilt with respect to the keyboard (like his moto keyboard mod)

Dave999 2017-07-29 16:41
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john_god (Post 1531580)
And why not ? :)
I asked first. But I can do an exceptions for you.

It has nothing to do with this specific device as I understand it?

Kabouik 2017-07-29 16:48
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Well, it's Chen's company and and it's a company that recently did the keyboard mod for the Moto, not a bakery company, so I would guess Chen's will use its resources and assets to complete the phone. I understand that the Lauta revival project is kind of a personal goal, but it's still a real product from a guy leading a company specializing in this type of things. I would be surprised if the phone/pocket computer is not branded Livermorium.

Dave999 2017-07-29 16:55
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabouik (Post 1531591)
Well, it's Chen's company and and it's a company that recently did the keyboard mod for the Moto, not a bakery company, so I would guess Chen's will use its resources and assets to complete the phone. I understand that the Lauta revival project is kind of a personal goal, but it's still a real product from a guy leading a company specializing in this type of things. I would be surprised if the phone/pocket computer is not branded Livermorium.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me9ge7H81o1rol1w1.gif

ibins 2017-07-29 19:45
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
\o/ for the new phone with slider keyboard!

Crazy idea: Design the device so, that there is no (zero) bezel around the display. Having a 5,5" display would make the device almost exactly the size of a Jolla phone!

Without a slider keyboard this wouldn't make sense, because nobody could hold the device without interacting with the touch display. With the slider keyboard one can hold the device without touching the display at all! Addidtionally this would lead to a few interesting and unique design decitions:

- No speaker or microphone on the front. Put these on the back of the phone (Yeah - crazy, but why not?). Would this be too weird? After checking the display one would have to flip the device to the back side for actually taking the call. Alternatively the speaker could be positioned to the top edge of the side. Actually this would be the left speaker of the stereo speakers of an N900.

- Putting the speaker to the back side (or top side) would eliminate the need for a second (front) camera. Video calls would work with the main camera. Save the money for the second camera and lense. This way you could also blind yourself with the flash LEDs during a video call 8-)

- Putting the speaker to the back side (or top side) eventually could eliminate the need for the proximity sensor to disable the display when the device is held to the head while phoning.

- As there will be more space in depth: Please put two speakers into the thing like in N900, which sounds amazingly good, although the device is really short in length.

- A RGB notification LED on the front might be difficult. Possible solutions:
a) Put it on the bottom edge and position it, so it lights 45° to the bottom and 45° to the back side. When the device lies on a table, the LED will be directed to the person sitting in front of the table. Due to the 45° angle to the table, there is the chance, that the table surface will also reflect the LED.

b) In case you decide to still have a slimm bezel, there could be some sort of plastic fiber material directing the light of a LED positioned inside the phone to the bezel itself or to a small window in the bezel. Actually the border of the bezel could be the indicator.

Anyways: Having the hope to get a landscape slider device with Sailfish OS is very exciting! Thanks for that!

pichlo 2017-07-29 22:28
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibins (Post 1531599)
No speaker or microphone on the front. Put these on the back of the phone (Yeah - crazy, but why not?). Would this be too weird?
That actually sounds rather cool.

Quote:
Putting the speaker to the back side (or top side) would eliminate the need for a second (front) camera. Video calls would work with the main camera.
That, I am a bit less sure about. I thought that the idea of a video call was that both parties can see each other. Not so easy when the camera is not on the same side as the screen.

The same about the proximity sensor: the point is to disable the screen to prevent accidentally pressing something. You would still need that even if the screen is facing away from you during the call.

Quote:
Actually the border of the bezel could be the indicator.
That could work very well and look cool too. I have seen fire alarms like that and it really works well.

NX500 2017-07-29 22:56
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibins (Post 1531599)
\o/ for the new phone with slider keyboard!

Crazy idea: Design the device so, that there is no (zero) bezel around the display. Having a 5,5" display would make the device almost exactly the size of a Jolla phone!

Without a slider keyboard this wouldn't make sense, because nobody could hold the device without interacting with the touch display. With the slider keyboard one can hold the device without touching the display at all! Addidtionally this would lead to a few interesting and unique design decitions:

- No speaker or microphone on the front. Put these on the back of the phone (Yeah - crazy, but why not?). Would this be too weird? After checking the display one would have to flip the device to the back side for actually taking the call. Alternatively the speaker could be positioned to the top edge of the side. Actually this would be the left speaker of the stereo speakers of an N900.

- Putting the speaker to the back side (or top side) would eliminate the need for a second (front) camera. Video calls would work with the main camera. Save the money for the second camera and lense. This way you could also blind yourself with the flash LEDs during a video call 8-)

- Putting the speaker to the back side (or top side) eventually could eliminate the need for the proximity sensor to disable the display when the device is held to the head while phoning.

- As there will be more space in depth: Please put two speakers into the thing like in N900, which sounds amazingly good, although the device is really short in length.

- A RGB notification LED on the front might be difficult. Possible solutions:
a) Put it on the bottom edge and position it, so it lights 45° to the bottom and 45° to the back side. When the device lies on a table, the LED will be directed to the person sitting in front of the table. Due to the 45° angle to the table, there is the chance, that the table surface will also reflect the LED.

b) In case you decide to still have a slimm bezel, there could be some sort of plastic fiber material directing the light of a LED positioned inside the phone to the bezel itself or to a small window in the bezel. Actually the border of the bezel could be the indicator.

Anyways: Having the hope to get a landscape slider device with Sailfish OS is very exciting! Thanks for that!
It's possible to remove to earpiece/speaker completely and transmit the audio trough the frame of the phone, using piezo electric components.
The Xiaomi Mi Mix is using this technology.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016...es-looks-like/

biketool 2017-07-30 05:45
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Forget the 'cool' no edge look, a nice 3mm or so of Ti, stainless steel, even maybe nylon bezel would make carrying the phone in a rubber or plastic case superfluous. We already know that the cool glass-to-the-edge look is why most phones are encased or cracked now, but you rarely saw a cracked N900. I think any community project should aim for maximum longevity vs racing past the current industry trends at making phones a profit center with replacement required once a year of the thin all-glass designs.

nh1402 2017-07-30 07:03
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NX500 (Post 1531605)
It's possible to remove to earpiece/speaker completely and transmit the audio trough the frame of the phone, using piezo electric components.
The Xiaomi Mi Mix is using this technology.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016...es-looks-like/
Yes but that phone did it terribly.

catbus 2017-07-30 07:21
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Why not Amoled?

Jedibeeftrix 2017-07-30 09:28
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
18:9 aspect ratio screen in 5.5" (2560x1080), would still be quite manageable one handed...

chenliangchen 2017-07-30 10:12
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catbus (Post 1531611)
Why not Amoled?
Because they are controlled mostly by Samsung, the suppliers. To get those screens in a small quantity usually is impossible as they will simply ignore us. I'm sure most people wouldn't want to pay a few hundreds bucks more just to get the amoled.

r0kk3rz 2017-07-30 10:43
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKit (Post 1531516)
So, ironically, SoC is the same with Moto Z Play. I already have SailfishOS booting on it (want to get more of hardware working before I publish the port though).

It should be more or less similar then in terms of porting, so we can (at bare minimum) have unofficial port (without Android support).
Chen, on this be careful about the selection of the Wifi+BT+FM combo chip, as in general it seems that the qualcomm offering is much easier to get working in sailfish os than its broadcom equivalent.

Particularly on the Bluetooth side, since android uses Bluedroid theres no requirement for the kernel to have any support for the BT chip at all, which appears to be the root cause of a number of sailfish ports with broken BT. That said the newer kernel in android 7 should help things there as drivers can be more easily backported from mainline.

nthn 2017-07-30 10:57
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibins (Post 1531599)
- No speaker or microphone on the front. Put these on the back of the phone (Yeah - crazy, but why not?). Would this be too weird? After checking the display one would have to flip the device to the back side for actually taking the call. Alternatively the speaker could be positioned to the top edge of the side.
Yes, that would absolutely be too weird, and you would look like an idiot every time you picked up a call. Which problem would it even solve? It's as if you would have a house with the doorbell at the front but the actual door at the back of the house. I'm 100% sure there's at least one ugly Belgian house that fits that description to a T.

NX500 2017-07-30 11:00
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1531616)
Because they are controlled mostly by Samsung, the suppliers. To get those screens in a small quantity usually is impossible as they will simply ignore us. I'm sure most people wouldn't want to pay a few hundreds bucks more just to get the amoled.
This...

..plus screen burn-ins are still a big amoled problem.

LouisDK 2017-07-30 11:00
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
A few years ago I was a crazy addicted to QWERTY phones, but after I switched to Jolla 1 I realised that if a phones screen size is > 4" the sw kbd is good enough and adding a psychical keyboard just makes it too bulky.

That said it's not a fair comparison as my experience comes from an addon keyboard (TOHKBD2).

I hope that my view towards QWERTY phones will change in the future. maybe we'll a slim qwerty phone with e-ink keypads.
That would makes it much easier to make a single phone design across a wider area.

mp107 2017-07-30 11:29
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
In my opinion, using e-ink screen as the keyboard is mostly the same as using on-screen keyboard due to the same flat surface without any perceptible forms which make typing on hardware keyboard unique.
Noticeable advantages are not covering the main screen, (maybe) power saving and as mentioned in the previous post making a single keyboard across a wider area.
In order to take advantages of both the e-ink and the hardware keyboard every single key would have to have a small e-ink screen.
It might be very convenient for languages using writing system other than Latin but with signs meaning more or less a single phone (phonetics) such as Russian, Ukrainian, Greek or Georgian as it might be easy to switch between (noticeable different) key layouts.

nh1402 2017-07-30 11:35
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp107 (Post 1531623)
In my opinion, using e-ink screen as the keyboard is mostly the same as using on-screen keyboard due to the same flat surface without any perceptible forms which make typing on hardware keyboard unique.
Noticeable advantages are not covering the main screen, (maybe) power saving and as mentioned in the previous post making a single keyboard across a wider area.
In order to take advantages of both the e-ink and the hardware keyboard every single key would have to have a small e-ink screen.
It might be very convenient for languages using writing system other than Latin but with signs meaning more or less a single phone (phonetics) such as Russian, Ukrainian, Greek or Georgian as it might be easy to switch between (noticeable different) key layouts.
Just the R&D costs alone, of doing such a thing would make that unviable I think.

mp107 2017-07-30 11:40
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
I agree. Currently, it sounds like a science fiction.
Just wanted to show kind of a draft of the idea.

Zeta 2017-07-30 12:01
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp107 (Post 1531625)
I agree. Currently, it sounds like a science fiction.
Yep, science fiction, but from 2009 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_SCH-U750 ;)

Dave999 2017-07-30 12:55
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Chen&Co are really HW heavy but what about sw. How much work must be done in to get sw run well with keyboard for android or sailfish? For sailfish...is the required parts open so it's possible to change?

And remap keys to fit different parts of the world.

LouisDK 2017-07-30 13:41
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp107 (Post 1531623)
In my opinion, using e-ink screen as the keyboard is mostly the same as using on-screen keyboard due to the same flat surface without any perceptible forms which make typing on hardware keyboard unique.
Noticeable advantages are not covering the main screen, (maybe) power saving and as mentioned in the previous post making a single keyboard across a wider area.
In order to take advantages of both the e-ink and the hardware keyboard every single key would have to have a small e-ink screen.
It might be very convenient for languages using writing system other than Latin but with signs meaning more or less a single phone (phonetics) such as Russian, Ukrainian, Greek or Georgian as it might be easy to switch between (noticeable different) key layouts.
The keyboard surface would be just like a regular qwerty phone keyboard with a screen covering each key. So you would still have psychical keys to press and real key feedback and be able to switch layout quickly eg. emoji keyboard.

pichlo 2017-07-30 14:19
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nthn (Post 1531619)
Yes, that would absolutely be too weird, and you would look like an idiot every time you picked up a call.
As far as I am concerned, everyone holding a 5+" device to their ear looks like an idiot, regardless of which side the screen is facing. Who would know anyway, the screen would be off during the call.

Dave999 2017-07-30 14:26
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1531638)
As far as I am concerned, everyone holding a 5+" device to their ear looks like an idiot, regardless of which side the screen is facing. Who would know anyway, the screen would be off during the call.
Honestly. I couldn't care less what people think about me while talking in my phone. To me it sounds more strange to care how other people look while calling. 6,4 Xperia ultra is as good as any phone.

I think you have to give it a year or two and you will not find it so stupid anymore. Just have to get used to it I assume.

5,5 will be great!

mp107 2017-07-30 14:56
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
In my opinion - a rather-small-screen user - not the size of the screen matters but the overall of the device.
I place hope in "narrow bezels style" but I'm afraid this would "only" lead to bigger screen in the same size of the device as before.


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