maemo.org - Talk - iPod Touch (threads merged)

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- - iPod Touch (threads merged) (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9530)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sondjata (Post 82206)

Ummm no.
Office for Mac makes MS a nice piece of change.

Unfortunately. :mad:

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by aflegg (Post 82152)

Yes, and it's a matter of *law* that Microsof achieved that dominant position through a series of canny business decisions, borderline unethical business practices and downright illegal abuse of any power it did have.

And it was this lack of belief in the product by the rest of IBM's business that led the "PC" to actually becoming a success. There was a need for a respectable desktop machine, and the IBM name gave it that level of acceptability.

The openness of the design, caused by it being thrown together on a shoe string using off-the-shelf parts, allowed the clones to rise up; and the non-exclusive deal MS had to allow them to provide the same OS to these clones.

I think Nokia's Internet Tablets will be Psion to the Hildon Symbian. Lots of people will use Hildon, as it's now spun off to its own GNOME upstream project. It's being used in Moblin and Ubuntu Mobile, as we know - and more are bound to follow.

However, these guys using it are customising it, designing UIs around it and recognising that good UIs sell devices and get users. Ubuntu Mobile is already more open than Maemo: you just have to follow the mailing lists to see that there's no talk of keeping such-and-such closed to "protect their IP". Nokia are open: but they're not open enough. They design a UI based on that on the failed 7710, for market continuity. That's as crazy as Sun thinking people want all Java apps to look the same on any platform with their god awful Metal PLAF.

Nokia may well have recreated the PDA market with decentish web browser and coolly hackable devices. But Apple, Ubuntu and Intel will rule the roost with consumer devices we won't worry about recommending to friends or colleagues.

This is a strawman. In this forum we don't care if Nokia as a phone company go bust, do well or anything else. We only care about Nokia's Maemo devices. Which, if you're playing the numbers game, have a tiny percentage of the market compared with the iPhone, iPod Touch - probably the abysmally selling UMPCs - and, inevitably, the MID-style devices.

1) Again, who's talking about Nokia's phone range? Who cares? The point of the Internet Tablets, according to Ari Jaaksi et al is that you have a small phone which you can use to make calls (oh, and manage your calendar, apparently ;-)) which you use as a gateway out. The brand of phone is as interesting to me as what make my ADSL modem is.

2) That's one too many time you've suggested people who disagree with you aren't capable of discussing such topics rationally and intellectually. Please stop that.

Cheers,

Andrew

I won't address the bulk of your post because you're getting into mechanics and my points were not intended to go in that direction.

The straw man accusation, though, is absolutely incorrect. I am making a reference to statements made in this very forum. You may think it's irrelevent for me to address such comments, but that's simply your opinion. I have my own. I believe that blurring the lines as some have done (hell, that even includes the many ill-conceived comparisons between iProducts and the tablets) is disingenuous. Yes, this IS a tablet forum-- but please save that lecture for those I'm responding to, thanks. I already get it.

But to the last points you make:

1. You are responding to general comments not directed at anyone addressed. I assumed my wording made that clear; sorry if it did not.

2. You are reading far too much into that line. It was not meant in the way you take it. I did NOT make the statement you allege, nor is any such meaning stated or implied. Period. The point is that *some* (please note generic address) have made grandiose claims here about Apple's new offerings killing Nokia's business in toto (the posts are in this forum) as well as those claiming Nokia will not be able to respond to Apple's challenge-- and I'm saying that such statements display a severe lack of understanding of the subject. It has nothing at all to do with "agreeing with me", but rather, doing one's homework and making an effort to grasp the subject in which one elects to engage. I would think that was self-obvious.

I quite frankly do not understand your persistent animosity toward me Andrew. I believe it to be completely unwarranted and can't understand why you consistently look for ulterior motives and meanings that aren't in my posts. A little benefit of the doubt, ie SAFE assumptions, would be nice.

I do find it funny that I make a very simple observation about Mil's IT friends post and it garners so many harsh rebuttals... especially attempts to draw me off onto one tangent after another. I stand by my original premise: IT folks are more likely to find the N800 suitable to helping them with support work than an iPhone or iPod. I'm still waiting for someone to counter that instead of attacking ME or trying to pull me into side topics. :rolleyes:

PS: If you have personal problems with me or what I write, I'd prefer you take it up with me in a private message, thanks.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karel Jansens (Post 82174)

It might be interesting to know that Windows (with its DOS predecessor) is practically the only software product Microsoft has ever managed to make money on. Even Office doesn't generate money. And the only reason Windows makes money, is because pc makers are still practically obliged to bundle it with their stuff, a position Microsoft achieved by simply breaking the law and "coercing" governments to do nothing until any legal action was too late to make a difference.

This is kind of irrelevant, but you're totally wrong on that one: Office makes tons of money for Microsoft.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2007/0...ffice-profits/

"In terms of annual profits, Microsoft earned $3.9 billion from server software, $11.6 billion from Windows, but almost $10.84 billion from Office. These figures are all detailed in Microsoft’s earnings reports."

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 82117)

<snipped> clarification about MS

Yes, I agree with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 82117)

I do agree with the remainder of your post though.

Thanks ;)

Btw, I have a very important tidbit that seems to be on-topic with this thread:

The weather in Tokyo today is very nice.

Har. This thread's topic is completely all over the map, those people attacking Texrat better rethink what it is they're trying to achieve and get to the point.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 82216)

I do find it funny that I make a very simple observation about Mil's IT friends post and it garners so many harsh rebuttals... especially attempts to draw me off onto one tangent after another. I stand by my original premise: IT folks are more likely to find the N800 suitable to helping them with support work than an iPhone or iPod. I'm still waiting for someone to counter that instead of attacking ME or trying to pull me into side topics. :rolleyes:

I have suggested that Apple could kill the Nokia NIT line, mainly because the appeal of the NIT is far too narrow and limited (and to an extent, lacking in quality) whereas the Apple products have a much broader appeal and obvious quality. I know you don't believe the devices compete, and in many areas they do not compete directly but for the *GENERAL CONSUMER* those areas where the NIT is strong are of little, if any, importance which is why, given the choice, the *GENERAL CONSUMER* will choose an Apple product in preference to a NIT.

Now, I do not believe that the Apple iPhone will in any way impact sales of Nokia PHONES, and Nokia isn't likely to be going bust any time soon! :)

As for using NITs in a work/support environment, I rebutted that to some extent by saying that wireless networks in a corporate environment are a complete no-no in many industries, particularly the industry I and my friends work in (finance). I wonder what the experience of others has been regarding the provision of WiFi networks in a corporate environment with access to an internal corporate LAN - I'd be surprised if they are common in large security-aware organisations, and without WiFi access to a LAN I'm not really sure how a NIT can be useful in a support role, unless it's used in an offline mode perhaps for reference documentation (which could probably be accomplished by an Apple product in time, once someone hacks local storage and creates a document viewer if it doesn't already have one...)

:)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 82251)

those people attacking Texrat better rethink what it is they're trying to achieve and get to the point.

Well, the point's been made a hundred times that, compared to the itouch, the NIT software and out-of-box experience is woefully unfinished. It was OK to talk about the platform's potential two years ago, but not any more. So fix it and stop telling everyone to be content with the current sad state of affairs.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 82216)

I stand by my original premise: IT folks are more likely to find the N800 suitable to helping them with support work than an iPhone or iPod. I'm still waiting for someone to counter that instead of attacking ME or trying to pull me into side topics. :rolleyes:

PS: If you have personal problems with me or what I write, I'd prefer you take it up with me in a private message, thanks.

Ah, it's not that the premise is wrong; it's the fact that your defense of the NIT has been reduced or shifted to this premise that is noteworthy. With the second generation, Nokia positioned the NIT as an Nseries multimedia device (added the webcam, Rhapsody, Skype, etc.). And now when another multimedia device comes along, and Apple and Nokia would seem to be directly competing on devices and services, you now defend the NIT as being for helping "IT folks with support work." They were not the target customer base for the N800, so it says something that that is now your argument (along with "be patient and wait for the future third party SW development" argument).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 82279)

I actually agree with you that my advocation has been reduced to a "sad state of affairs". I can't argue that at all. I certainly wish the N800 were the darling of the consumer electronics landscape and enjoying much more third party support than it has.

But I have to live in and deal with reality. I'm not going to defend things that don't work. I'm not going to make useless excuses for missteps. So all I have to offer *at the moment* are reminders that the tablets still hold a great deal of (in some aspects unrealized) potential-- more so than some devices that have managed to impressively leapfrog it sales-wise. Until that situation changes, that's my last remaining talking point as an advocate. Of course, I could shut up entirely if that's what the majority desire. :cool:

And yes, I have indeed pointed out that the N800 is INTENDED as a multimedia device. I capitalized "intended" for a reason. The point was that this is how *Nokia* positioned it. While I agree the explanation doesn't sit will with those wanting enterprise apps from Nokia, it is what it is. That having been said, the tablet CAN do so much more. Just because it's INTENDED for multimedia doesn't limit it to that genre, thanks to Linux. So due to the efforts of third parties and some in-house development, I *can* use my Nseries device as an ersatz Eseries device. I can communicate with colleagues over sametime, check corporate email using the Outlook Web Client, manage user accounts in web applications, access web reports from SQL Server, browse and search the web for information, etc. And there is nothing that I'm aware of keeping that from being the case for IT users at large. I quite frankly don't know why there isn't a universal hildonized VPN tool.

Back to the thread topic, I actually have a great deal of respect for Apple's accomplishments with the iPhone and iPod; I've said that before and it gets lost in the noise. I just think the NITs *can* do so much more. And yes, I fully recognize Nokia's needs in that area.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 82216)

I won't address the bulk of your post because you're getting into mechanics and my points were not intended to go in that direction.

Fair enough. I'll also reply to your post backwards to deal with the most important points first.

Quote:

2. You are reading far too much into that line. It was not meant in the way you take it. I did NOT make the statement you allege, nor is any such meaning stated or implied. Period.

In which case I apologise fully for suggesting it. However, I hope you can understand how I came to that conclusion when the following, in this one post, could apply to anyone who suggests the N800 and iPhone/iPod Touch compete for the money of most potential users of either device (of which I'm one), or similar grounded statements:

Quote:

[...]the many ill-conceived comparisons between iProducts and the tablets[...]

[...]those claiming Nokia will not be able to respond to Apple's challenge-- [...] such statements display a severe lack of understanding of the subject. It has nothing at all to do with "agreeing with me", but rather, doing one's homework and making an effort to grasp the subject in which one elects to engage.

Finally on this matter...

Quote:

I quite frankly do not understand your persistent animosity toward me Andrew. I believe it to be completely unwarranted and can't understand why you consistently look for ulterior motives and meanings that aren't in my posts.

Again, I apologise. I do not believe I have been looking for ulterior motives and meanings in your posts. I think your motives are quite clear, and clearly expressed: you are a dedicated tablet user who can see the potential of the devices, and a Nokia employee. The motives from both these are clear, expected are in no-way counteractive.

Quote:

PS: If you have personal problems with me or what I write, I'd prefer you take it up with me in a private message, thanks.

I have no such problem, and again I'm sorry if that came across.

Finally finally, and back on-topic now...

Quote:

I think many of us here are guilty of arguing with the extremes, whereas the interesting debate is in the centre:

No-one serious thinks the iPhone is a threat to Nokia's mobile phone business in its entirety: it's too focused at the high end, too expensive and too locked down.
No-one serious thinks the Nokia Internet Tablets don't have great flexibility, power and show a real amount of effort put in by the Maemo team.
No-one serious would ever not look at the competition, even in slightly tangential market segments, and look to see how lessons there could be applied to their own products (whether that is in marketing, usability, prettiness etc.)

The last point has worked particularly well for Microsoft ;-)

The debate therefore should never be about if Nokia is going to go bust, or if everyone will own Apple devices. It's a useless argument on a hiding to nowhere. The debate should be about what lessons Nokia can learn from the iPod Touch and iPhone (whether one believes they compete directly or not) and make the devices that everyone sensible on this forum recognises have enormous potential, have that potential realised.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)

An SDK is coming to the iPhone - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7049689.stm

Quote:

"We are excited about creating a vibrant third party developer community around the iPhone and enabling hundreds of new applications for our users," said Mr Jobs.

He added that it would take until February to release a software development kit (SDK), as Apple both wanted to "provide an advanced and open platform", at the same time as protecting iPhone users from viruses and privacy attacks.

The SDK will also allow developers to make applications for the iPod touch, which uses the same underlying architecture as the iPhone.

I think this announcement now closes this debate, the iPhone/Touch will be absolute competitors to the Nokia Internet Tablets in the near future once the SDK is available. With sales of the Apple products dwarfing sales of the NITs there is bound to be far more interest in developing for Apple devices than for NITs, which will only increase the appeal of the iPhone/Touch.

Perhaps Nokia can find a temporary niche with the GPS and hardware keyboard enabled N810 (I'm certain that GPS will appear on an iPhone/Touch next year and decimate the GPS market!), but longer term I can't see how Nokia can compete with Apple for mind share without increasing NIT sales by several orders of magnitude and significantly raising public awareness.

Then again, Nokia may not even attempt to compete with Apple and may be willing to continue funding NITs while the platform evolves into something that spans phones and computing devices - ie. NITs are a long term and very public research project!