Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Every year is the upcoming year of desktop Linux. I'm starting to think that's a running joke.

I'd disagree here. Linux servers did comprise the majority of the servers...

Didn't Linux become the favorite OS of China and India? I know of China at least. That's huge in itself. Let's see if that continues to other countries that will start to distrust Microsoft due to their PRISM/XKeyscore connections and perceived backdoors.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Gerbick

If you consider for many peeps the definition of desktop has changed to mean, smartphone, tablet etc then linux on the desktop has indeed won.

Personally I have been Microsoft free on my home kit for at least 8yrs and have never had any issues that caused me any grief, hence my support for n900/maemo.

To me, having Windows on a phone just seems like a complete dead end retrograde step, I cannot see why any sane person would ever want this when there are so many compelling alternatives.

Rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Uhh... Nobody agrees that a smartphone, tablet, etc. are "desktops." Heh.. no. I agree with pretty much everything else you said, though.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I dont care what Android is based on, they pretty much copied Apple's ideas, icons and the whole experience. To me that is plagiarism and I will never buy their product. On the other hand, maemo, Harmattan, and WP8 truly tried to differentiate from the Apple experience and produced some fresh UIs. I bought these phones as I like to stimulate innovation. Android and Google stole it all.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Lumiaman

er no they didn't.

@Danramos

I merely said "if you consider for many peeps" their primary desktop is no longer a desktop.

A large number of peeps have no need for a traditional desktop with their entire computing needs being satisfied by smartphones or tablets, then for that demographic being 70% Android, Linux has indeed won on the desktop, but first you have to recognise that their "desktop" is no longer a large beige box with a monitor, keyboard and mouse.

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Android owes much more to Symbian and Maemo than it does to feature phones like the iPhone.

The WinKia experience is much closer to 'the Apple experience' than Android is; high gloss but functionally crippled, tomb stoning devices that are trapped in a walled garden that's knee deep in rotting manure.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

No. Smarthphones are not desktops. Last I checked, that's definitely not anywhere near the case. Until then, people are missing the point...

Lucky you. I've straddled the Microsoft world as a developer, administrator, deployer and designer (network design and graphic design for web/mobile/desktop app)

Just like Android isn't full blown GPL/Linux, Windows Phone isn't full blown Windows. Kernels are important but are not the only indicator of your OS.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Gerbick

"No. Smarthphones are not desktops. ... Until then, people are missing the point... "

You obviously accept there is a point and yet somehow it is the people that are missing the point? huh?

By using smartphones and tablets to replace what they would have traditionally used a desktop for and therefore no longer having a need for a traditional desktop the people are somehow at fault. hmmmm!

Perhaps this is why Nokia has completely and abysmally failed? no?

"I've straddled the Microsoft world as a developer, administrator, deployer and designer (network design and graphic design for web/mobile/desktop app)"

Lucky you, me too! last time I checked several of my many programming languages were core to Microsoft tooling, perhaps M$ should stop trying to manipulate the world of computing and relearn the lesson of delivering what best supports customers! eh?

"Windows Phone isn't full blown Windows"

Indeed, and yet I seem to be able to run many full blown Linux apps on my N900, perhaps Microsoft are not as good at this stuff as they pretend to be?

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

symbian and maemo had little to do with anything. in their own irrelevant world. android copied UI from apple, as well as the whole ecosystem concept like there is no tomorrow. if this was academia, they be stripped of everything. so keep supporting plagiarism. buy android

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Lumiaman

I find the Android UI quite distinct from the simple icons on iPhone with its widgets and all.

Strange you should think they copied Apple, after all, icons per se aren't that hard to come up with, I mean Microsoft even managed to figure it out it in Windows version 1.0

Then again, I suppose Microsoft has had 20 years of dominance to come up with the obvious concept of an appstore and yet clearly everyone else has still managed to do this before them.

Strange that, perhaps Microsoft are not as good as they pretend to be?

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Damn Elop! He should had gone this route instead:

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Hey MIke

That takes me back, thanks for that.

Up until recently I still had a copy of 1.15c, slightly before you could overlap windows.

its only taken them till Metro to get that retro .... pun intended!

Cheers

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Didn't mean to confuse - it's a long thought that I've yet to fully share with most people; only a couple of people here actually and one of them (ARJWright) has even deeper thoughts about that than I.

"More cellphones will be sold than desktops and laptops sooner than later..." was something I said in 2001. Later, that came true. But to be honest, what if a cellphone could be used like a desktop? Closest so far was the Atrix that had a desktop mode and a laptop mode. The N900 was a good go at that concept too - but it was limited quite a bit due to the lack of 3G bands that worked with AT&T in the states whereas T-Mobile was the better suited carrier and they had bad coverage in some places (like Pittsburgh, PA for instance).

And the Ubuntu Edge seems to be going back down that path - which is a good thing. Thus my statement stands. Cellphones are not desktops. But they could be.

In the rush for a smartphone, most inner-city youths don't have access to a desktop or laptop but they do have access to a cellphone. So let's be honest, how many of you can use a stock smartphone as your main and only computer? Not many can say "I can" without it being modified, something added to the stock configuration that makes it more comfortable to use as your only computer.

A bluetooth keyboard or a hardware keyboard is a good start. Access and ability to alter Microsoft Office documents is another start - editing via Google Drive, SkyDrive, Box or Dropbox is already there. With the screens getting higher and higher resolution, doing a lot of the aforesaid is also getting easier too.

But it's not fully there yet as a replacement. And not very many manufacturers are closing in on that missed demographic. Not yet.

And that concludes the final part of my contradictory statement from before... people are indeed missing the point. The next billion of anything will have to be a device that can do more than the current iteration(s) of smartphones. And funnily enough, Nokia could have beaten folks there if they had stayed the path and worked out how to not piss off prior Maemo device owners and push their wares into places that could have benefitted from a forward thinking process.

That didn't happen. People are still missing the point (see above).

That's my take.

Yep... the people that made the decisions are at fault. They're too busy chasing the most megapixels and not figuring out how the users today are different from the users tomorrow. I've been through the gigahertz race, the RAM race, the bits race... and now, megapixels and high-definition screens.

Yeah. I'm real excited (yawn).

Oh, I really believe this played a part in their decline. That and the politics surrounding Symbian.

Not on a stock N900, but Easy Debian is easy enough to install. But I understand what you're saying. And that's what people are missing... those lil' pocket computers need to become something more useful than a Facebook/Angry Birds vessel.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/01/s...share-q2-2013/

We need more OSes. iOS, Android and windows is simply boring.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget....es-q2-2013.jpg

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I think you may be confused. Linux never won the desktop wars, no. Smartphones and tablets aren't a desktop, even with the way you're TRYING to explain it.. it does not qualify under any circumstance. That's not even arguably true--you're completely incorrect to try to twist that language around to try to fit a smartphone/tablet as a desktop.

I think what you MEAN to say is that although Linux never won the desktop war, it ultimately won the the PC war through Android. The smartphone and tablets have successfully replaced desktops and laptops as the personal computers. This is also the reason why Intel and AMD are sorely losing out lately to ARM manufacturers and licenses.

Language is important. They aren't the new desktop--they made desktops irrelevant to the common person.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Check this section of the Symbian Freak forum, it's for discussing apps (even apps with maps). Note the dates carefully, then look up when the iFeaturePhone was released.

The walled garden and crippling device functionality that might offer your customers freedom of choice might have been Apple's concepts but an 'ecosystem' certainly was not.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Nobody argues that this wasnt on other people's radar. Ideas are like assssholes, everyone has one. Its who delivers first that wins. And although iphone came out in 2007, you can bet that they were working on it since 2003.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I meant to imply servers running open-source Linux variants.
They are a small niche, from what I know.
Sure, most run on Linux... but they are the proprietary versions.

Gerbrick, I agree with you [open-source is superior to proprietary solutions]
-- in theory. In theory, communism works. In theory.

^See if you know where that reference is from, elephant.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Kangal

http://royal.pingdom.com/wp-content/...7/netcraft.png

Assuming that Apache is mostly running on Linux which I admit is an assumption, it certainly seems that proprietary Windows is indeed small and niche.

Also from the w3tech stats I linked to earlier which you may have missed, Unix Server variants hold roughly 64% market share (32.5% of which are Linux) versus Windows server at 35%.

So proprietary Windows is roughly equally as niche and small as opensource Linux so no theory here then. It appears to be in use by many.

@Danramos

I meant what I wrote. For many peoples use cases the desktop of yesterday (keyboard, monitor, mouse, desk, chasis) is no longer required, smartphones and tablets have become their desktop of today.

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

By having to use the qualifier "variants", you're assisting the non-savvy perception of fragmentation. That needs to stop if it'll actually gain more traction - and folks need to stop defining what is Linux in different ways too. Start with the kernel, stop with the file system. Or something...

I'm going to ignore the "small niche variants" verbiage because in the end, it's still Linux. NetCraft would disagree with you - but finding actual numbers based on the OS/Kernel as opposed to the webserver daemon is hard at time. So I'll just go with something magical - experience.

And Linux has the edge on web servers.

Drop the extra "r" at the end... gerbick. Dr. Octagon would be ashamed of that extra "r"... see if you get that reference.

And nice Homer reference. Didn't even need to use Google for that one.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Access to it and functionality defined are two different things in regards to what constitutes a desktop. Until it can fully replace what most people are taught what's a desktop with a bachelor level education; it's not a desktop.

It's just a very powerful device that's converging in quite a few areas... desktop down the line perhaps. But what do I say about a cellphone being a desktop? Not today...

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

It wasn't 'on the radar' or an 'idea' it existed in the real world long before Apple or Google began participating.

NTT DoCoMo's app store predated Apple's by nearly a decade.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

So why did apple wildly succeed where your Symbian failed? According to you Symbian was so advanced that it made people's brains hurt on how advanced it was

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Gerbick

Perhaps the difference is that you think of "desktop" as a device.

I think of "desktop" as a set of requirements.

Rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Until I can use Photoshop, Illustrator and other pro-level spec software on my phone and not watered down versions that miss the UI/UX necessary to facilitate the aforementioned work, it's not a desktop to me.

Just about any device can do terminal. I have demands way past that... (see above)

And it's not just Photoshop. I'm sure you'll list out a bunch of native Linux apps, Vi editor/VIM, GCC compiler, Apache, SSH or something like. Be honest man, a $25 Raspberry Pi can do that. And it's not exactly a desktop replacement yet either.

I'm a designer. I'm also a developer. I'm also an admin. Above all, I have certain apps that need to be there. And I have UI needs that need to be refined to start to allow my cellphone to replace a desktop. It ain't there yet.

And that's what you seem to be missing. Your attempt to define a cellphone as a desktop replacement needs to be expanded. So share, exactly how a cellphone replaces a desktop.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Symbian outsold iPhone in every single quarter ever right up until it was sabotaged, NOKIA were profitable and growing up until then too despite shipping lots of fugly, low spec hardware. iPhone has never come close to enjoying the domination Symbian did, that void has been filled by Android.

If you want to see what failure looks like right now it's covered in primary coloured squares. It's so toxic it even taints the excellent hardware NOKIA produces these days.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Gerbick

And I think you have just made my point, you have reverted to a set of requirements that mandate functionality found in a traditional desktop.

And in your case specifically a Windows desktop, that is your choice.

I use a Linux toolchain to achieve the same, Gimp, Inkscape etc.

The fact that your specific requirements however prevent you personally from using smartphone or tablet as your primary computing device does not negate the fact that many people now days can and do dispense with standard desktops (or laptops).

If your use case was limited to just facebook and shopping for instance then you would have no need of mouse, keyboard etc. and in these cases the users new desktop becomes the smartphone or tablet for all intents and purposes.

It is just a different shape of computing device (desktop purpose by old standards) and the majority of smartphones run Linux.

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

You are again missing the point. Symbian was a dead man walking. They should of cleaned that dinosaur by 2010 when it was clear that N8 and n900 can not compete, except perhaps in third world. Everyone was dropping Symbian and adopting modernity. You sound like a Brit still dreaming if empires.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Lumiaman

Actually I agree with Switch, dead men walking simply don't outsell competitors.

However it was also clear that others like Apple and newcomer Android were progressing.

If Nokia had really wanted to distinguish itself it should have created a fully open stack to compete with Android and then built cross development tooling and frameworks to bring over the Symbian developers in a graceful migration.

Burning Symbian over night and then just expecting everyone to follow Windows like sheeples was just plain madness, no one wants Windows on their phones after 2 decades of Windows on their desktops except a small minority.

As I already said though that strategy has been and gone, Nokias only chance now is to create 100% fully open hardware and hope the world will forgive their recent utter disaster and that others will be willing and able to create new and viable phones such as Jolla, FirefoxOS, Android, YukBuntu etc.

ie, let the market decide what it wants rather than trying to forcefeed Windows onto the masses.

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

********. You have no point, you've not defined anything; I'm defining very specific uses that support what a desktop does for me. I'm being intentionally myopic meanwhile you're being intentionally vague.

Define your point or you seriously have proven you have no point whatsoever.

Mac OS X user actually. And I run Ubuntu, Windows XP/7/8/Server, OS X Server, Haiku and NetBSD.

Same. But CMYK support in Gimp is extremely immature. That's a serious problem for me.

Erm, no. You seriously fail to see that there are no methods to complete the implicit tasks of creation, publication and professionally do so without jumping through some hoops. Inkscape and Gimp on a N900 means you have to install Easy Debian. That also means you've gone past stock.

You truly fail (willingly or not, I've yet to decide) to see that a cellphone is not a desktop replacement based on the simple fact that it cannot as os yet do what a desktop presently does. So what needs to happen? A new user paradigm, a new user interface, something that just doesn't exist yet. A seamless, thought out way to make that little thing in your pocket (the phone) into something that can do all of what a desktop of any OS flavor can do without having to compromise its use as a cellphone. Easy Debian doesn't make your phone into a computer. It installs a desktop OS that uses desktop UI/UX on a much smaller screen and thusly it's not optimized.

I'm speaking of doing something new. You're the one stuck in old cycles. Time to upgrade, do something new.

State your case. You've yet to do that.

Shape has nothing to do with it. It's the UI/UX that needs to be rethought. Remember when Symbian had problems adopting touch type controls initially? They had to rework the UI/UX to accommodate larger hit areas, bigger fonts and a less traditional input scheme.

Same thing needs to happen on the cellphone front. It's not that hard to comprehend.

And finally... a cellphone != a desktop. No friggin' way. You've chosen a random stance on something that really isn't presently true at all. And slapping Linux on a phone doesn't make it a desktop.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I have a point. You just made it! I'm right again :)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I'll up the ante... $52 dollars for your silence.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

These Americans...Always waving borrowed money!

But, only for you. I'll be quiet in this thread for $53.

After all, I started this thread before people derailed it :)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Gerbick

"a cellphone is not a desktop replacement" for your purposes maybe so.

My point is very clear, for "A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE IT IS" and I wager many more than your specific professional uses.

rgds

ps. I had forgotten photoshop runs on Mac.

pps. I qualified above saying both smartphone and tablet not cellphone.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Symbian was dead man walking, they were giving Symbian phones away across Third World to keep up the numbers. I think they tried with Maemo, and Harmattan, but something was wrong with the leadership. Maemo 5 was the best product because it evolved from 700 devices, but for some reason it took sooo long to release N9, and still sooo imperfect. And this is all prior to Elop. Clearly leadership was not hungry enough to throw Symbian under the bus earlier and focus on a better platform. By the time Elop got to Nokia the OS camps were well delineated. And there are several posts from ex-maemo employees documenting the leadership issues that killed development of more open platforms.

Vast majority of people dont care if system is open or closed. They care how well it works. Although Android powers huge amount of devices, all I see around me are iphones and few lower end Androids. at least in the usa, most higher end users, use apple, with some android penetration but most of it at the lower end, and that is why the android numbers (just like Symbian in the past) look inflated. Nonetheless, whether open will win over closed system, is a point of semantics. Its amazing that Apple can produce a single phone a year and beat up on everyone. It tells you that people value quality and performance. I am curious what will happen when apple releases budget iphones....

In this forum people want open device so they can tinker. Great. 99.99999% of the people want it to just work, and that is what sells. n9 and N900 didnt work well. N8 was the biggest flop. All of this was prior to Elop. He could have gone to bed with Google, and it would have been me too. He went with WP8, a lesser me too. I wish they continued on their own OS, but I think he chose to focus on one thing and do it well. Maybe he should have focused on Meego, maybe he should have focused on something else. Maybe he just didnt trust the programming culture at NOKIA to trust them with software solutions (and they certainly didnt make it easy with N900 and N8 and N9).

I built a house out of steel reinforced concrete that can withstand 300 mph winds. The buyers could care less what was in the walls. All they cared was about the colors. There you go.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

@Lumiaman

Maemo is sufficiently CLOSED in enough parts that 3rd parties couldn't use it on other devices and make it their own, Hence little to no adoption.

Android "Source Code Available for Android 4.3
Android is an open-source software stack for a wide array of mobile devices with different form factors. .... We wanted to make sure there was no central point of failure so no industry player can restrict or control the innovations of any other. That's why we created Android and made its source code open." Hence large scale adoption.

obvious.

Not a failure of management or of the technology, just a fundamental missunderstanding of why OPEN is winning.

rgds

ps. it's "couldn't" care less! ... anything else is as upside down as the rest of your ideas.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

What is an high end user? LOL

"most higher end users, use apple"

Haha epic sentence. Thanks for that Mr cluelessness. :D

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

And yet in Q4 2010 NOKIA's gross margin was 29.2% compared with 24.4% last quarter.

Here's another one for you:
In Q4 2010 NOKIA's ASP was EUR 156, last quarter it was EUR 157. Despite making hugely more desirable hardware now than then even NOKIA's ASP hasn't increased in real terms.

Plus this:
In Q4 2010 NOKIA sold 28.3 million smartphones, last quarter it was 7.4 million.
(and that's in a time period where the overall market has more than doubled in size)

And just for good measure:
In Q4 2010 NOKIA made an operating profit of EUR 884million, that compares to an operating loss of EUR 115 last quarter.


You always see what you want to see, you always believe what you want to believe.
- Tygers of Pan Tang


There's a real possibility it will simply canibalise their sales of the high glamour iPhones just as the iPad mini has done to the iPad (iPad mini hasn't stopped Android overtaking iOS in the tablet market too).


In Q4 2010 NOKIA sold 5 million Symbian^3 devices, if my memory serves me correctly that could only have been the N8 (which wasn't even released until the October). Any Lumia models selling that well yet?


He couldn't, his puppet master wouldn't allow it.


Oh, FFS :rolleyes:
This pretty well sums up how I feel about my country.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

What's the difference between a Citroen and a giraffe?
One's got hydraulics the other's got high ...

Maybe 'higher end users' are giraffe shagg3rs?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Let me remind you something that your memory doesnt serve you well. NOKIA board hired Elop because they clearly saw that Symbain was dead man walking. If Symbian was so great, how come NO ONE licenses it now, and how come in 2009, Samsung announced that they dropping Symbian, followed by a whole slew of other manufacturers that they are dropping the great Symbian platform by the fall of 2010?????

The sign of great companies is when they notice the need for change long before it becomes catastrophic. NOKIA leadership didnt plan well, didnt execute well, and were lulled by the numbers you quote above. Anyone using Symbian devices in 2009/2010 knew that this was inferior OS, waiting to fall dead. All pre-Elop.