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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   Jolla1 & TOH (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=56)
-   -   Jolla User Experience Thread (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91875)

ggabriel 2013-12-13 13:55
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by w00t (Post 1395961)
Support for what?
On a serious note, I guess that the point here is that the device "plays nice" with what most users do to transfer media/files back and forth their PC's, Macs, etc.. I personally don't undertsand how hard can it be to mount a device (not to mention with the added security benefits), but most people disagree with me.
If Jolla wants to reach out to the mass market, it's good that when you plug in the Jolla device on a Mac or whatever, you get the expected reaction (somebody fill in the blanks here, I'm not that type of user).

There is a grey area, though, where Jolla can't do much, but I guess "as much as possible" would suffice. Now, if this "technology" can't be used because it's patented, then somebody write an application and make some money ;-)

Miharin 2013-12-13 13:56
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe (Post 1395984)

OS X does support rndis with the horndis driver an then you can transfer files over sshfs/scp/sftp
Does this require developer mode and use of terminal? Are there any instructions anywhere?

pycage 2013-12-13 13:57
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauha (Post 1395977)
Jolla phone doesn't show up in Finder on OSX for me. I haven't yet tried to solve the issue with terminal.

But Im running a triple booting hackintosh machine (OSX, Win8, Linux). Could be somekind of quirk caused by not running an official Apple machine, altough all other mass storage USB devices work no problem in OSX for me.
It is not a USB mass storage device. It is a MTP device, and Apple does not support this. There is the Android File Transfer application available from Google for MTP on OS-X, but Apple broke that with the update to Mavericks, too. :(

Philippe 2013-12-13 14:05
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggabriel (Post 1395986)
On a serious note, I guess that the point here is that the device "plays nice" with what most users do to transfer media/files back and forth their PC's, Macs, etc.. I personally don't undertsand how hard can it be to mount a device (not to mention with the added security benefits), but most people disagree with me.
If Jolla wants to reach out to the mass market, it's good that when you plug in the Jolla device on a Mac or whatever, you get the expected reaction (somebody fill in the blanks here, I'm not that type of user).
The issue here is that when the decision was made it played nice with PC's and Macs. However Apple recently broke things, most likely to curb the growth of Android devices. So on Windows/Linux it works fine.

If somebody is to blame it is Apple for not supporting industry standards and non-competitive behaviour.

Philippe 2013-12-13 14:07
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miharin (Post 1395989)
Does this require developer mode and use of terminal? Are there any instructions anywhere?
This does require developer mode and most likely some knowledge of command line tools. I do not know of any tutorial out there atm, and I must admit it is not the most userfriendly way. Moreover I do not know what part of those things works and how on a Mac.

There are mixed reports of iPhoto working/not working. Also people have been using dropbox etc ...

We are currently brain-storming to work out a way to get support for OS X in a way that Apple is not likely to break. But for that you will have to be a bit patient.

Miharin 2013-12-13 14:08
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
I'm gonna try and circle around the problem running Windows 8 in Parallels for now!

Edit: Works.

ggabriel 2013-12-13 14:17
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe (Post 1395998)
If somebody is to blame it is Apple for not supporting industry standards and non-competitive behaviour.
Thanks for commenting and setting the issue straight. It would be good if the EU Competitions Committee (or however they are called) paid attention here.

herpderp 2013-12-13 14:17
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainisto (Post 1395952)
There is normal unix security to protect the data.

Sailfish protected data are in privileged group, and normal android applications don't have access to that group, as android apps run as randomuid:nemo-group. So they only have readonly access to nemo users dirs (if group has +r). If you make sailfish application, and chmod g-r on the file, then android application cannot read it.

But yes between sailfish applications both are running as nemo, there is no read access restrictions, but ofcourse you can encrypt your sailfish applications data files. And even normal nemo user sailfish applications cannot access the data from Jolla applications privileged group dirs (like facebook contacts etc are protected).
I think this is a serious oversight. I understood not doing it in Maemo, but I would expect at least Jolla would implement something like Android, where the app declares what it needs, and it fails if it tries to access something it did not request access to.

At this day and age, what is the justification not doing something like this?

It only takes 1 malicious developer with a relatively popular, innocent looking app to compromise the security of most Sailfish users, and steal all the info they store on their phones.

This is the main reason I'll avoid getting one.

maluka 2013-12-13 14:22
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauha (Post 1395977)
Jolla phone doesn't show up in Finder on OSX for me. I haven't yet tried to solve the issue with terminal.

But Im running a triple booting hackintosh machine (OSX, Win8, Linux). Could be somekind of quirk caused by not running an official Apple machine, altough all other mass storage USB devices work no problem in OSX for me.
It's not because it's a hackintosh, it behaves the same way on official hardware. It has something to do with the Btrfs file system that Jolla uses not being supported on OSX yet.

MartinK 2013-12-13 14:29
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by herpderp (Post 1396007)
I think this is a serious oversight. I understood not doing it in Maemo, but I would expect at least Jolla would implement something like Android, where the app declares what it needs, and it fails if it tries to access something it did not request access to.

At this day and age, what is the justification not doing something like this?

It only takes 1 malicious developer with a relatively popular, innocent looking app to compromise the security of most Sailfish users, and steal all the info they store on their phones.

This is the main reason I'll avoid getting one.
Tis us not easy at all to properly do this. Just check the Aegis fiasco on Harmattan on the N9 to see how bad it can get if not implemented proprly.

Philippe 2013-12-13 14:32
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maluka (Post 1396008)
It's not because it's a hackintosh, it behaves the same way on official hardware. It has something to do with the Btrfs file system that Jolla uses not being supported on OSX yet.
It is one of the issues related to mass-storage. But Jolla does not have mass-storage support. Just like all current android phones out there... Please read the messages above.

rainisto 2013-12-13 14:38
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by herpderp (Post 1396007)
At this day and age, what is the justification not doing something like this?
Generally end users just press yes to all privilege questions, so there is no point of asking, as its just one useless dialog that bothers the end user experience. There is no point of asking question that users dont understand anyways (well yes 1% do understand, but do you want 1% to spoil the experience for 99% of other users). Those 1% are able to do their own hardening in developer mode anyways (as you can freely tweak android app permissions from commandline).

Malware gatekeeping is done at store QA state (when in developer mode all bets are off anyways) and QA checks that application does not have suid bits nor privileged-group to access the privileged data directory. No Aegis will prevent that anyways as there are always ways around it, even on N9 it was easy to make malware application that steals all your data (event the aegis protected data).

gerbick 2013-12-13 14:39
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe (Post 1396013)
It is one of the issues related to mass-storage. But Jolla does not have mass-storage support. Just like all current android phones out there... Please read the messages above.
I can only talk about the devices I have here - my N9 and BB Z10 both work and transfer files without incident. I don't have my Nexus 7 handy (it's in Jamaica, I'm in the US at the moment) but the need to communicate with my desktop/laptop one way or the other would still be considered an oversight in my book.

Thanks for the clarification. But over the air synchronization needs to be streamlined in future iterations in regards to OS X and other operating systems that are, for all intents and purposes, more plentiful than Linux.

I run Linux and Windows via VMWare Fusion, so I could spin up an instance and do what I need. But as I've made aware earlier, I'm in the US. So no phone to test.

Mavericks indeed broke a lot of things. What are the options going forward that would be a tad bit less cumbersome and instant? Sync via wi-fi perhaps? Bluetooth? Most Macs have those for the last few years.

What's in store? There's are ways around the broken bits that Mavericks did. BlackBerry has found a way.

cy8aer 2013-12-13 14:48
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe (Post 1396013)
It is one of the issues related to mass-storage. But Jolla does not have mass-storage support. Just like all current android phones out there... Please read the messages above.
When I look at different Android hardware it seems that this is a hardware issue: Some devices with actual e. g. cyanogenmod are able to mass storage, others to mtp (some both?) and it cannot be changed by software AFAIK.

att 2013-12-13 14:49
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maluka (Post 1396008)
It's not because it's a hackintosh, it behaves the same way on official hardware. It has something to do with the Btrfs file system that Jolla uses not being supported on OSX yet.
Jolla doesn't export Btrfs through PC connectivity. Jolla emulates generic MTP protocol to PCs so they don't need to understand Btrfs. PCs only need to understand USB+MTP.

ste-phan 2013-12-13 14:53
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainisto (Post 1395952)
There is normal unix security to protect the data.

Sailfish protected data are in privileged group, and normal android applications don't have access to that group, as android apps run as randomuid:nemo-group. So they only have readonly access to nemo users dirs (if group has +r). If you make sailfish application, and chmod g-r on the file, then android application cannot read it.

But yes between sailfish applications both are running as nemo, there is no read access restrictions, but ofcourse you can encrypt your sailfish applications data files. And even normal nemo user sailfish applications cannot access the data from Jolla applications privileged group dirs (like facebook contacts etc are protected).
:confused:
Nice to have an answer from somebody with some background knowledge.

Before we start chmodding and encrypting stuff...

Could you please explain the following:

Suppose I install "moneymaker.apk" on Android: moneymaker.apk demands access to: network, address book, phone status, location data, file system EVERYTIHING.
Allow? Yes / No
Here you think: ok maybe No is the better choice and I 'll forget this ever happened and download the next app.

How does an install of moneymaker.apk go on Jolla?
Is there a warning? Yes or No, if not, why not again?

Or I can safely go ahead as even Skype for Android cannot get my sailfish generated location, address book data, check phone status etc... because it runs as nemo and does not have access to "protected data"?

thanks for elaborating a little more...

ste-phan 2013-12-13 14:57
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardyates (Post 1395957)

If you would like to see some of the pictures they are in my flickr feed currently the first 7 pictures are all ones taken with the jolla

http://www.flickr.com/photos/richardcyates/
sometimes there seems to be a purple color cast, I have noted this on the other examples as well.

Exif data does not identify the camera as "Jolla"?

I notice your Flickr identifies the Lumia 1020.

att 2013-12-13 14:58
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardyates (Post 1395966)
On screen it shows me 07:44 under which there are 5 illuminated lines, then a gap then 2 dark lines (sorry not got chance to screenshot and in a hurry)

Yesterday and today the alarm hasn't gone off at all - it is definitely supposed to go off every day - can you feed that one back too?
Just to check: Have you set it to alarm mo-su (every day) or mo-fr (every working day)? Now your illuminated lines indicate that you might have set it to alarm mo-fr, or you have hit another bug on displaying the alarm data.

Philippe 2013-12-13 15:01
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cy8aer (Post 1396023)
When I look at different Android hardware it seems that this is a hardware issue: Some devices with actual e. g. cyanogenmod are able to mass storage, others to mtp (some both?) and it cannot be changed by software AFAIK.
This is not a hardware issue. That cyanogenmod supports it in some cases is because it makes certain choices.

For mass-storage we need to have a separate FAT partition to have it work on all OS's. This then needs to be unmounted/remounted on demand. Measures need to be taken that programs don't block those actions. Nor panic when the FS they plan to use disappears. Then there are the issues with buffers, possible file corruption, ...
Other impact is that the user will have hacked up storage etc...

This is why everybody has been moving away from mass-storage and onto MTP as removes the problems with multiple access etc.

And as I explained before, MTP used to work on OS X at the time we made the decision. And we are working on a solution for the only broken OS out there...

drcouzelis 2013-12-13 15:07
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1396025)
Jolla doesn't export Btrfs through PC connectivity. Jolla emulates generic MTP protocol to PCs so they don't need to understand Btrfs. PCs only need to understand USB+MTP.
That's what I was thinking. What is the filesystem layout in Sailfish?

I much prefer Sailfish to use BtrFS and other advanced filesystems than to store everything on Fat32 just so every computer can mount it.

aegis 2013-12-13 15:10
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Has anyone tried this yet?

https://github.com/phatina/simple-mtpfs

It's an MTP file system using FUSE. Should work on Linux and Mac.

att 2013-12-13 15:12
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardyates (Post 1395960)
With the help of a friend who writes qt programs, i've been trying to install the Tweetian beta. Unfortunately my friend is currently in Sydney which is a hindrance since I'm in the Uk. We have installed the qt dependencies need, but keep hitting the rpm.lock, and that won't delete either

Any ideas? what is the default password for su?

(please go easy on the reply, I can type accurately to enter commands, understand them a lot less)
Use pkcon for installations. In case you have used rpm or zypper directly.

In Settings: System settings: Developer mode enable Developer mode and Remote connection. Input a password and tap Save.
Then in Terminal app run "devel-su" command and give it the password. You are now root user on the system, so be careful because in the worst case you can brick the phone.

herpderp 2013-12-13 15:12
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainisto (Post 1396017)
Generally end users just press yes to all privilege questions, so there is no point of asking, as its just one useless dialog that bothers the end user experience. There is no point of asking question that users dont understand anyways (well yes 1% do understand, but do you want 1% to spoil the experience for 99% of other users). Those 1% are able to do their own hardening in developer mode anyways (as you can freely tweak android app permissions from commandline).
This is not a satisfying answer to those users who are in those 1% (I would argue that their percentage is substantially higher than that). And I'm sure I'm not alone in not wanting to waste my time hardening something that should be safe in the first place (one app's data from another app, without authorization).

But fair enough, at least a straight answer. I see this kind of security is not in Jolla's first priority.

richardyates 2013-12-13 15:13
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ste-phan (Post 1396027)
sometimes there seems to be a purple color cast, I have noted this on the other examples as well.

Exif data does not identify the camera as "Jolla"?

I notice your Flickr identifies the Lumia 1020.
Most of the recent pictures are indeed Lumia 1020. When I look at the exif info, the phone is identified by its processor as ARM&HD (or whatever it is I forget. The pictures side by side are noticeably bluer on the Nokia than the Jolla. The Jolla pictures remind me of the N9 and 808, which I guess is their heritage

richardyates 2013-12-13 15:14
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1396036)
Use pkcon for installations. In case you have used rpm or zypper directly.

In Settings: System settings: Developer mode enable Developer mode and Remote connection. Input a password and tap Save.
Then in Terminal app run "devel-su" command and give it the password. You are now root user on the system, so be careful because in the worst case you can brick the phone.
Thanks:-) Noted:-)

att 2013-12-13 15:15
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1396034)
Has anyone tried this yet?

https://github.com/phatina/simple-mtpfs

It's an MTP file system using FUSE. Should work on Linux and Mac.
I use it to access Jolla from my Fedora Linux laptop. Fedora starts automatically Gphoto2 to access Jolla but for some reason Gphoto2 doesn't work with it.

gerbick 2013-12-13 15:42
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1396040)
I use it to access Jolla from my Fedora Linux laptop. Fedora starts automatically Gphoto2 to access Jolla but for some reason Gphoto2 doesn't work with it.
So what does work with it?

benny1967 2013-12-13 15:42
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe (Post 1396030)
For mass-storage we need to have a separate FAT partition to have it work on all OS's.
OK - now is this the answer to my question why mass storage was naturally supported on both the N900 and the N9 but isn't on the Jolla Phone? Because the Nokia models hat FAT partitions that the Jolla has not?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue in favor of FAT now or anything like that. I just felt that the explanation "everyone's moving away from mass storage in favor of MTP" is not satisfying for someone who used only mass storage on all Maemo devices so far, including Maemo 6. I can live with a good explanation why Jolla didn't include mass storage, as I could live with the N900 not supporting MMS given its complexity. I only feel that "everyone's moving away" isn't a good explanation.)

att 2013-12-13 15:56
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1396049)
So what does work with it?
I dismiss Fedora's dialog to open Gphoto2 and then I run simple-mtpfs from command line to mount Jolla. In some cases the first mount can fail. In those cases unmounting and mounting again fixes it for me. Then you can access data and photos with any software that uses normal filesystem syscalls for accessing them.

Miharin 2013-12-13 15:57
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1396034)
Has anyone tried this yet?

https://github.com/phatina/simple-mtpfs

It's an MTP file system using FUSE. Should work on Linux and Mac.
That looks like something worth giving a shot. I might break my Mac though. Better try it on the laptop first... ^^

VDVsx 2013-12-13 16:08
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sconf (Post 1395713)
Oh well, I'm on the same boat...err...jolla with non-working SMTP connection.

Pretty annoying and I refuse to use google as work-around. :eek:
Is this related to username != email address ? If so, that setting was already added and hopefully will be release in next SW update.

Dave999 2013-12-13 16:25
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
What application is must haves in j Stores? If any? How many apps available?

att 2013-12-13 16:34
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1396073)
What application is must haves in j Stores? If any? How many apps available?
Currently 47 apps.

Dave999 2013-12-13 16:37
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1396076)
Currently 47 apps.
One useful?

zwer 2013-12-13 16:44
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe (Post 1395999)
We are currently brain-storming to work out a way to get support for OS X in a way that Apple is not likely to break. But for that you will have to be a bit patient.
The way I see it - if that is your goal you only have two options:
  • developing your own protocol, drivers for each platform and user friendly software to utilize it - this implies high support cost and limits 'mass storage' to only supported platforms, or
  • building a shadow virtual FAT on top and exposing it to USB - it's not as difficult as it sounds, I did some rudimentary work in that field a while ago and I'd gladly donate you the code if only I could find it, however I'm not sure if Microsoft still claims patents on that so it might get costly

Even Apple wouldn't dare to break legacy USB-FAT so the latter is pretty much Apple-proof, and not only that - every device with that support would be able to read the storage.

If we move away from legacy, as I've mentioned earlier, current Linux filesystems wouldn't need much modification to do away with single-host mounting, but that doesn't solve the problem at hand.

att 2013-12-13 16:44
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1396050)
OK - now is this the answer to my question why mass storage was naturally supported on both the N900 and the N9 but isn't on the Jolla Phone? Because the Nokia models hat FAT partitions that the Jolla has not?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue in favor of FAT now or anything like that. I just felt that the explanation "everyone's moving away from mass storage in favor of MTP" is not satisfying for someone who used only mass storage on all Maemo devices so far, including Maemo 6. I can live with a good explanation why Jolla didn't include mass storage, as I could live with the N900 not supporting MMS given its complexity. I only feel that "everyone's moving away" isn't a good explanation.)
There are lots of technical problems related to mass storage mode, not just FAT vs more modern filesystems. It can be made to work but it requires lots of glue and has many bad side effects. I can understand why Jolla's sailors have decided to use MTP instead. I think Philippe has made a good job in describing many problems related to it.

MTP's main issue is that it is quite young so some operating systems are still having some problems with it. Hopefully situation is much better in a year or two.

att 2013-12-13 16:48
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1396077)
One useful?
Yes, I have installed Quicklist, speecrunch mobile, Scientific Calculator, screenshot, Android support, Documents, Notes, Maps, Media, Clock, Microsoft Exchange, Calculator, Mail and Calendar. Some of those are from Jolla Essentials collection.

Philippe 2013-12-13 16:49
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1396050)
OK - now is this the answer to my question why mass storage was naturally supported on both the N900 and the N9 but isn't on the Jolla Phone? Because the Nokia models hat FAT partitions that the Jolla has not?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue in favor of FAT now or anything like that. I just felt that the explanation "everyone's moving away from mass storage in favor of MTP" is not satisfying for someone who used only mass storage on all Maemo devices so far, including Maemo 6. I can live with a good explanation why Jolla didn't include mass storage, as I could live with the N900 not supporting MMS given its complexity. I only feel that "everyone's moving away" isn't a good explanation.)
Go back and read the whole reply please. All the reasons why were mentioned before, "everyone is moving away from it". Also mass-storage on N900 and N9 had a number of unresolved issues you might not have seen/or not always seen. Which is also a reason why it is not there now.

Dave999 2013-12-13 16:57
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1396082)
Yes, I have installed Quicklist, speecrunch mobile, Scientific Calculator, screenshot, Android support, Documents, Notes, Maps, Media, Clock, Microsoft Exchange, Calculator, Mail and Calendar. Some of those are from Jolla Essentials collection.
Great now I only have to make sure my gf stays at home watching the door on Monday and I will be a jphone owner. Transport during weekend is a go, right?

I think we need a new anticipating thread for the next jolla device right here after Christmas.

Nalim 2013-12-13 17:29
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Today I've received 2x Jolla device (Czech Republic). I haven't expected anything special but to my surprise I am touched to tears how great these devices are. I almost feel they have their own soul. I'm an mobile device addict, currently I have several androids (samsung note3, sony z ultra, ...) but this is really something special. Am I alone with such a feeling?


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