Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Here is a clip from Jolla Care's response related to a question about the first wave shipping:

Translated to English:

So it confirms why there were more invitations sent on Oct 14th.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

This campaign is a HOAX for sure...Even if a tablet show up eventually, possibly, maybe.
Meanwhile the players gonna play, play, play, play, play
And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
Gerb , I'm just gonna wait, wait, wait, wait, wait
I wait it off, I wait it off.

You tell me when it's over if the wait was worth the pain.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Of course I will do just that.

Now, here's my dilemma. Why are you using part of my moustache avatar?

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Have you ever consider it to be the other way around?

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Edit: Not worth it. Changed mine... enjoy yours.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

https://ex.movember.com/

Edit: what makes you think I copied Yours?

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

I think daves has a slightly better curl to it.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Starting to doubt I will get it before Christmas...

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

i just want to point out to those who find any excuse for Jolla and giving examples of other worse campaigns as an example that Jola is somehow is okay:
I ordered Pebble(AFAIK campaign started after Jolla Tablet's one) and got watch a long time ago. It broke and within a week they already sending me replacement with not too much questions or verifications. They are small company too. So i get replacement even faster than you get your tablet :)
So if some company wants to do it right and they do it through campaign on crowdfunding site, they can do it, so what would be your excuse for Jolla now? Factory problems? Does pebble own their factory or they produce watch that is more uniq than tablet(yup there are few tablets with similar specs and no watch like pebble out)?
Just food for thought :P

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

I figure it's the same excuse I'd always make. As I understand it, Pebble is a smartwatch company: they set themselves up to design and build smartwatches. The people there were hired expecting that they understood how to design and build smartwatches. They presumably have expertise in designing and building smartwatches. If people don't like their smartwatches, the business will go under.

And, as I understand it, Jolla is a software company. They set themselves up to design and build the Sailfish operating system. The people there were hired expecting that they understood how to design and build operating systems. They presumably have expertise in designing and building operating systems. If people don't like their operating system, their business will go under.

But Jolla's tablet? That's something that, honestly I wouldn't expect they would have much expertise in designing or building. And it's something that, honestly, can flop without destroying the company. Certainly, the success of the tablet isn't crucial to the success of the company.

So yeah, I wish Jolla was a bit more proactive about the tablet, but the tablet is not central to Jolla the way that smartwatches are central to Pebble.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Well, if factory doesn't churn out products at the pace and quality expected, or if there is shortage of certain components, there is not much Jolla can do about it as they don't own factories themselves. Regardless how much we advise them to "do it right."

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

True, but, if you make a certain promise, those you gave the promise to have every right to expect that the you have taken every step and precaution to make sure that promise will be met. If things happen beyond your control that mean you cannot fulfill that promise, going silent is about the worst thing you can do. People expect at least an explanation, if not some form of a compensation.

I find the legths some people go to in order to find excuses based on pure speculation without even a shred of evidence absolutely astounding. Factory problems? Maybe, but those words should come from Jolla, not from Copernicus. And they should be accompanied with Jolla management crawling on their knees and pleading for their customers' forgiveness. And offer a €100 discount on your next purchase or something. Just like any airline has to do if it is late, regardless of if it is their own fault or an errupt volcano in Iceland.

Jolla's management must be rubbing their hands in glee as this exercise clearly proves that they can get away with making any promise in the future without any repercussions should they fail to deliver again.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Absolutely no argument here. While it is true that the factory problems I've been mentioning _are_ from words that came from Jolla, I can't say anything to justify their continuing failure to live up to published schedules, nor their continuing failure to say anything at all as their deadlines pass by.

Honestly, I really should have known that the latest schedule, even if it came straight from Antti Saarnio, was not worth the pixels it was printed on. :) For some reason, Jolla just has no firm grasp on this tablet.

(And yet, they do manage to make huge progress on Sailfish, and even hit the deadlines that they set there. I'm used to thinking that hardware production is easier to predict than software...)

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Would it be very cynical of me to think that Jolla is maybe only using the Tablet as a means of raising capital for development sailfish as an OS?

Jolla have managed to raise two million (cant remember the exact figure) via the indigogo campaign. This is money that has been paid to them and is/was sitting in the bank. Im not sure how it works, as far as agreements with indigogo, to actually produce, supply etc something for a campaign?. but they can say they have produced and shipped (a very very small number 250-300? ) of Jolla Tablets. No deceit or lies here. In the same way they can say that they did produce and ship (even if a very very small number) the Jolla Phone Battery as promised. No deceit or lies here

In the mean time they can use the majority of the money to fund the development of sailfish as an OS.

They can then drip feed those that have ordered a Jolla Table as and when monies are available from licensing the OS...

Of course if it does all go pear shaped - all will say its a very brave thing they tried, its a difficult market, They almost made it...etc etc

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

No, I don't think production plants let you do that. It would be horrendously expensive if they actually wanted to produce such small batches.

You can be pretty sure that the factory are forcing this on them. If some big players with fat wallets come along and want extra batches produced in time for Christmas, Jolla get bumped.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Not just cynical, but crazy. The major costs involved in producing a consumer product are spent for designing the device, setting up a factory to produce the device, and hiring & training workers to build the device. You only start making a profit once the factory has pumped out enough of them that the difference between the parts cost and the sales price brings in enough money to pay off that initial startup cost.

Jolla has _already_ done all the startup work, as evidenced by their ability to actually produce about 200 units of the final product. So, they've already spent a whole lot of money here (almost guaranteed more than they raised from Indiegogo). Unless they somehow manage to turn things around and start producing this tablet in volume, they're going to be in a big financial hole here...

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

However, Indiegogo is not the only finance source.
But, yes, I agree.
Frankly, to me it would even be accepted if I never received the tablet. I think they are now moving very fast and very progressive with the OS.
I feel quite satisfied, and look forward to where that is heading.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Going silent is still better than to go out with incomplete information, as you know perfectly well. Explanation is not enough, they need to know when to expect deliveries to take place and if that information is unavailable for variety of reasons, there is no point in trying to explain anything. Doing it will only drag you to answer questions you don't have answers better than Soon(tm) or something like that. It's exactly the king of communication you yourself have been highly critical of.

Jolla's hands may be tied on that one, however, the product is finalized, software is out but they are missing the devices to ship so only reasonable explanation is that they don't get the devices from the factory. Reasons for that may be either shortage of components (as that has already been a problem during the design phase), or the quality of the batch has been bad and they cannot deliver such batch (which obviously is not something they can disclose publicly), or the factory has scheduled something over Jolla's time slot. Considering that they are manufactured in China.... it shouldn't come as a big surprise. It's a shame there are no relevant production lines for this kind of products in Europe any longer.

However, they did disclose this information. From Antti Saarnios blog post:

We have faced numerous challenges, ranging from issues with component deliveries, to component issues with the display (we’ve kept you up to date with all the challenges we’ve faced with the display), to securing manufacturing time slots from the factory. All these put together have contributed to a domino effect, negatively impacting assembly and shipment timeline of the Jolla Tablet.

But lets forget it and decide they didn't say it, so we can criticize them for not saying it shall we? :)

Most likely they are in pain because this tarnishes their reputation and there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop it. In the end, talk is cheap, no matter how much you crawl or offer discounts etc. to support it. Damage is already done and it will be aggravated by this very community for years to come (or until Jolla is no more).

But of course if it makes you happier, I could switch to extreme negativity claiming they will never deliver, never do anything right, never ever even publish updates to Sailfish "the right way" and the whole project is utterly doomed, failed, bad and EVIL because I don't have access to their inner communications, all of the source code and agreements they have with 3rd parties. I just don't see it advancing anything useful and it's boring, so I guess I'll stick with what you call "letting them get away with anything, rubbing their hands in glee..." at least for now. :)

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Pebble also introduced new OS, own one, that they develop. With new SDK and even after introduced new watch(round one).
And if Jolla only software company(btw why update 2.0 came later if so) why they produced the tablet. Again you can have as many excuses as you want but after all they did said they would(and after all i belive they would at some point deliver), but they failed at large with dates, delays, communication about it. Updates after months of delay and silence do not really count :)

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

What progress again? Get rid of other halfs, the colour themes of phone and all the "exclusive" things and UI slowly comes to look more android with few swipes. Revolution is not about UI, buttons or swipe, but about UX, and while with N9 and even with Blackberry10 i felt natural with all gestures, with Jolla you need to learn and get used (if you explain UX it's wrong UX).

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

And if some user from TMO can tell that, why wouldn't they think of it ahead, as it's their job you know :)
And again who told that factory delayed for more than half year (may was original date) and what Jolla sit quit all this time and wait for factory to call them?

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

You remember you are talking about some standard chinese tablet with some modifications(search this thread for links of found "brothers" of Jolla tablet)

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

If so, there is no UX that is done correctly.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

But a close one there is in my memory :D

The Maemo 5 interface felt all natural to me from the first minute.
It was like homecoming on my trusty desktop PC.
Including the tap in blurred area to cancel, hold back button for surfing history in browser, ctrl+c/v, shift arrow, etc..

The only feature I had to look up was how to activate the virtual mouse cursor.

With Jolla Sailfish I am still struggling how to get back from this gallery review to my camera interface fast when rushing to take a next picture.
I did it before, I know how it works, but I keep struggling when it counts.
That is just one example but there are a couple of those dead ends where I have to try something different to get back on track.

Also I have to remind myself that there is an extra menu somewhere swipe forward or was it backward.

It is not bad but surely not a second nature like as Maemo 5 feels.

Here is my top UX.. Maybe not fair as some devices have really excellent HW features while other are set back by the new barebone approach there must be an "app for that" or "additional gadget for that" style.

1) Maemo 5 as on N900
2) Harmattan as on N9
3) WebOS as on Pre3
4) Sailfish OS as on Jolla till 1.1.7.28
5) Sailfish OS as on Tablet and latest update on phone (2.0)
6) Symbian Belle as on Pureview 808 - some UX features are just killer and the UI has great customization possiblities but a lot stands with great HW features + reasonable software. (Pureview camera launched by HW camera button, Mouse & keyb native support, USB OTG, HDMI, probably forgetting a few)

Choose only one: probably the Nokia 808. Dream UX would be an updated Maemo 5, Nokia 808 HW features incl HW keyb +

Damn, when will I ever heal and move on even if it means going backward in overal UX? :D

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

There is nothing ideal, but i gave you an example of intuitive UI.
In addition, it funny how Jolla changes a lot of things they introduced as "uniq" and "unlike" features towards the Ux more of android :P
So again, I know you love them, but at least do not make a mistake as Marc did with a tattoo :P

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

True. It took more effort to get into Harmattan than into Maemo 5, however I still consider Harmattan UI-paradigm to be more powerful than Maemo 5 and after getting used to it, there simply was no way I wanted to adopt different UI-paradigm again (however, if Jolla goes belly up, I guess I wouldn't have a choice anymore). Being intuitive usually means just doing thing "the familiar way", but UI considered to be very intuitive may not be at all intuitive for people who have no prior experience with it, or have experience from different kind of device. That's why I have taken this "intuitive UI"-thing with heavy dose of salt since from the days of first iPhone. It either needs to be explained, or it needs to ne so outright limited and dumb that even dumb persons know how to use it - and still there would be those dumb people who need it to be explained to them... :)

As for struggles with SF 2.0, personally I haven't had issues to adapt to them like you have. Some things were better in 1.0, some things are way better in 2.0 and over all I regard 2.0 better.

So my list would be:

1. Sailfish 2.0
2. Sailfish 1.0
3. Harmattan
4. Maemo 5 / N900 as it was very powerful as pocket computer
5 iPhone as it was fluent and effortless, though not powerful
6. Symbian Belle because it could work both vertical and landscape throughout the whole UI, which is what I have been missing since, but disliked the multi tasking-style and overall bad performance especially when heavily burdened

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Here is the financial status of Jolla Ltd. Indiegogo campaign alone can sustain Jolla Ltd or the development of Sailfish OS only for few months. And not even that if we reduce the hardware costs. This means that the development money is mostly coming from somewhere else like owners, investors, partners, loans and bonds.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

I doubt investors are interested to continue feed Jolla with money 2016....

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Why not? They've stumbled with the tablet, but they've finally started to crack open the OS market. They're looking like the only significant competitor to Android at the moment (that is, as a mobile device OS not tied down to a particular manufacturer's products). So, they do still have a story to sell...

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Congratulations for them! My guess, however, would be that the Pebble OS is just _slightly_ less complex than Sailfish. ;)

Marketing, of course. It's been some years since Jolla formed, and they only had the Phone to show off their OS. As an aging device, and with no successor, the Phone is limited in how well it can advertise Sailfish. The Aigo x86, a low-cost tablet with a large "retina" screen, made for a perfect way to show off the beauty of Sailfish, and the Indiegogo campaign raised plenty of buzz.

Nothing I can say against that. :(

Well of course they do -- it's better than NO updates after months of delay. :)

Funny thing, I personally don't give a crap about UI/UX. :) If you really want a perfect user experience, get an iPhone -- Apple's spent billions getting the user experience right. But if you want freedom to access your file system, freedom to customize the OS, freedom to run your own software... Well, Jolla seems to give you that. Otherwise, get ready to spend hours (days?) hacking your device and voiding your warrantee...

Ah, if only. Had Jolla settled for a vanilla Aigo x86, we'd all have had tablets in our hands last Spring. But no, they had to get the _perfect_ screen to show off Sailfish. And so, endless delays.

BTW, if you want, you can check out my own thread on the Aigo x86:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=96002

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Pebble is less complex, but on other hand they introduced totally new Os with new way of UX nad new UI and new functionality, while Jolla just introduced new features, part of them were implemented as patches before btw :)

And as of freedom, there are Androids (that can work on x86 too btw) that are almost 100% FOSS, so again if you do not care about UI or UX and you care about freedom, why not android, ubuntu phone or tizen, some of them are more open and more hacker friendly than Jolla.
And again if you want freedom, you can buy rpi or other already assembled kit with pure linux.
P.S. I bet the problem of "perfect" screen is PR, they have problems and they switched display, to justify they told it would be "better" display with no info for months :P

Edit:
I remember my argues with you few years back, when I told you that they doing it wrong and it goes that way and you tried to defense them blindly and finally you coming to sense :P

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Looks like someone is having "let's have bashing-celebration-day"... again. :)

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Isn't that every day?

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

If only were no reason :P
You need to blame those who gives a reason for that and I would help you pass your time till you get your tablet, if you'll get it :P

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

So by stating baseless claims, that's considered coming to ones senses now?

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

So basically from ~7 my posts with explanations you take out one small sentence in the end and bash me for bashing :P I see what you did there :)

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

I totally did that.

Mikecomputing, gotta love the guy (no sarcasm)... but he's been a serious grump as of late. I hope he gets his (and the others as well, myself inclusive) Jolla tablet sooner than later.

It's just all of this doom & gloom talk is just... well, opinion based.

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

For some odd reason, I really don't feel specific need to primarily find someone to blame.

Others may have that urgent need, especially if they have been against certain manufacturer since from the very beginning...

Re: Discussion over the Design, Features, and Rollout of Jolla's new Tablet, Assuming that it isn't a Figment of our Collective Imagination
 

Actually I was in first wave and was pro Jolla, how about that?

So delay, miscommunication, problems is an opinion based :)