Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Have been following the Pro 1 with some excitement. I cannot decide whether to pay for my pre-order.
Can any one provide an update on the Sailfish port. Particularly:
- are all functions working yet?
- is it expected that anything will be problematic?
- is battery performance reasonable?
Is everyone here buying it on the assumption that a Sailfish port will be in good order, or do you all plan on running Android?
Thanks in advance,

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

I can't reply to all of your questions, and I'm afraid that nobody can. But obviously all functions aren't not yet working in the Sailfish port. And, as you might already know, proprietary functions, like Android app support for example, are not included to unofficial ports. So one could say that "all functions" aren't even going to be available, at least if Jolla won't decide to make official version of Sailfish for the Pro1. But if I haven't mistaken, the Sailfish port for the Pro1 is in Alpha stage right now, so the porters probably haven't been too worried about things like battery life.

I'm personally going with Android at least in the beginning. I got frustrated to Sailfish while using Jolla phone/Jolla C/Oneplus X w/ Sailfish port. So for me Sailfish on the Pro1 is not a must, but of course it would be great thing to happen. Personally I'd rather see Maemo-Leste or some other proper Linux distro on the Pro1, along with multiboot ability. But right now everything I hope for is that they manage to actually publish and produce the Pro1 and they find enough customers to succeed.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Koirus,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. It is good to get your thoughts.
Not fussed about missing android compatibility etc.
I do want a reliable everyday phone though. I guess it is best for me to hold off for a little and see how Sailfish goes on release. Then cross my fingers there will be some stock available!
Anyone else with some inside information on the porting progress?
Thanks again,

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

No, but you can easily approach the porters yourself, thank them and ask ;)
One thing i know is Mister_Magister is reading since he mocked me writing all the porters names wrong in previous post (:D:o), maybe he could end lurking mode and share some tiny bit of insight :p

What was said and shown at Froscon is now very comprehensively (as always) wrapped up in Leszeks SailfishOS Podcast!

EDIT: To spare you all some time i did a short Q&A with Michał and here is a wrap up:

Only the second camera on back seems to be a real challenge not doable without reinventing the whole feature eg. "implement own algorithm to use it for that stupid effect."

But Selfi camera works as Chen tested on usual suspect subjects :p

wifi kinda works but not fully

nfc works

dualsim works

sensors are working i recall. one unit latest had it working on froscon. iirc they are a little bit buggy aka not always working
making sensors stable and gps working is on todo list and totally doable

it has 4.4 kernel getting anbox to work should be piece of cake

i think it will be pretty stable to use and possible anbox so android app support


Currently not fully working or no information:

fingerprint won't work until jolla opensource it

external display might be challenging

i can't say anything about battery life cause i have prototype not final device

gps is not working iirc

Bluetooth is buggy

video playing is not working but thats fixable

on screen keyboard doesn't show up after bootup you need to open and close keyboard

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

I wish someone makes a phone the size of a N9 with decent specs (a top end processor, please!!) and running Sailfish of course!!! Jolla 2 anyone?!!

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Hi Mosen,
Thanks for that great update. It is very good to hear that things are progressing well. I had pondered asking on #sailfishos-porters, but figured they have plenty on their plates - your summary is perfect.
Considering I am a one device person, and it seems like availability will be good post launch, I am going to hold off until I see a port ready for daily usage.
I am wanting success! It all is looking good.
Thanks again,

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

To make the keyboard as bad to use with clumsy fingers as the TOHkb for the Jolla 1 and the N900's keyboard?
No thanks, IMHO a 5,2" screen and consequently a keyboard with its width is the smallest practically usable size (at least for people over 40)!

Oh no, that would be the perfect route for F(X)tec to kill their enterprise: Developing an Operating System.
Purism tries that, it takes years (by which such a device is delayed), bears huge technical and business risks, costs a lot of money and thus significantly increases the price of the device (by ca. €500 for the Librem).
Side note: I have some doubts, that Purism will survive this well, and am absolutely sure, the their software stack will not be practically usable for a power-user before 2021.

F(x)tec provides an open Bootloader plus no loss of warranty whatever has been flashed (as long as you manage to reflash the original Android software stack before sending it in), and I definitely do not want them to do more than that.
They are an excellent hardware provider and as such they already have to care much too much about low-level software (kernel adaptions etc.).

"Hardware kill-switches" are primarily good for those, who do not trust their software stack to control these peripherals properly.
If so, you should not use that software stack at all, thus implementing kill switches just increases parts count and mechanical complexity for no real gain.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Can you elaborate on that? Last time I checked, and I check on a regular basis since a long time, Anbox was more a proof of concept than something one could use on a smartphone. Actually, even on a full fledged Linux distribution for desktop, it is quite complicated because there is no real snap of Anbox. The snap they provide is just some sort of script to facilitate the installation of related ppa, hence restricted to Debian/Ubuntu distributions.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Not me, that would turn funny quite fast.
Would be interested myself in hearing about the viability of using anbox for the basics pain tasks like whatsapp and bank apps.
Last time i used anbox on Nexus5 the OS integration was practically non existant. Did i get right that anbox has to be "adapted" per device, but OS integration is the same for all devices with same OS?

EDIT, Michał answered your question:
Anbox is working on sailfishos on some devices but the dev working on it kinda stopped doing it

Anbox video

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Well, I guess that's a real matter of personal preference then, because I personally thought the N900 was perfect in it's size, including the keyboard :) I'm a big guy (1.95m) with big hands, by the way.

How do you read 'develop your own OS' when I say 'free bootloader to load whatever you want'? :rolleyes:

I wonder, have you followed the development of the Neo900, and do you know why so much effort was put into separating the memory used by the phone's modem from the memory used by the CPU/rest of the system? It's because the modem is running on a proprietary software blob of which you do not know what it does. We have no choice but to use it however, otherwise you have non-working modem, and thus no telephony functionality. The modem might read shared memory, maybe influence it as well. So, your assumption is right: I do not trust the software stack. Hence why the Neo900 was attempting to detach/sandbox the modem as much as possible, as Purism is doing with it's Neo900, and built in hardware kill switches as well, as both Purism and PinePhone are doing.

I find your manner of thinking strange. It's the same as: "why include a 3.5mm headphone jack? I won't use it anyway". Sure, but maybe other people would? If you don't want to use hardware kill-switches, simply don't.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

well, me to. But I still find browsing this forum way more comfortable on my current 5.7" phone without HWK than it ever was on N900 with HWK. And it's even more comfortable on 10" tablet. Not to mention proper 15" laptop. And this is as simple as it gets layout.

It's simple, the more content I see the more easier it is to do things. Now, some compromises has to be made and at some point mobile is not exactly "mobile" any more but at the same time, 3-4" screen is not exactly better suited for work than 5-6" screen.
Now, I don't know old are you and when you started with smartphones, but all of us old farts that used Palms/Treos, R380, NOKIA communicators and othere geeky stuff back then are used to bigger size. And the benefit of modern screen to size ratio makes new devices waaaaay more comfortable to work on than before.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Kinggo, for me it the size of the device not so much the size of the screen.

I would love a full screen device. But I like the size of say the iPhone 6/7 as a good size for the pocket and ease of carrying. I cam to the realization that many ppl carry around their phone not for the addiction of content ... but also because they just don't fit in pockets the way they used to.

So keyboard as big as possible, screen as big as possible ... but device as small as possible :D

x

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

well, modern flagships require deeper pockets anyway so......... :D
I had Dell streak back in the days and I was claiming that's the future and everybody was LOLing and telling me that I'm crazy. Now I have XZ2 which is roughly the same size but with bigger screen.
I was always going for the bigger screen so I was never in a situation that I had to jump from 4" to 6" because my "compact" died. It was always a choice.
At some point I had galaxy tab P1000 and I used that as a phone :D
Now, that was not pocketable but after experience with so many different sizes I know that 150-160x70-80 mm is fine for me. Going back to 4.5" of Jolla 1 was more of an issue than it was a Streak for the first time.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

That's true, but I'd add that doing things with a keyboard also makes those interactions a whole different story. I remember my N900 and its small screen (which I liked), and I also remember my N9 with about the same screen size and its snappier browser. The N900 killed the comparison, doesn't matter how much I loved my N9, browsing on the N900 with its stylus felt so natural.

Actually, while browsing anything that might require me to interact or type something is still painful as of today when I use my touchscreen devices (even the bigger ones), I didn't feel any of this frustration with the full screen estate + keyboard + stylus of the N900. Plus touchscreen-only devices also imply this constant awareness requirement we all feel, trying not to touch the screen involuntarily and move the view, which gets old really fast, something that was a non-issue when holding the N900 keyboard. But I have a problem with touch interactions (yet I remember how excited I was when I got my first touch screen on an old Samsung feature phone): it's funny to think that if I was offered to browse a forum for one day (and nothing else allowed) on an N900 or on a modern laptop with just a touchpad, I'd probably pick the N900.

The Pro1 is going to be really cool in that regard. I'll miss the stylus badly, but the device has plenty to offer to make me focus on the positive sides.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Anyone notice on the FAQ section under preorder it says shipping date September?
Could've sworn it used to say second week of September...
Did the launch get pushed back again?

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Because that is already promised!?!
Including no break of warranty, if you manage to flash back to Android.

a. Yes, quite closely.
BTW, the Librem, PinePhone etc. use the same design principle: No shared memory and no Bus Mastering from a separate modem.

b. If the there is no shared memory and no Bus Mastering from a separate modem, a "kill switch" makes basically no difference.

c. When an integrated modem is used, a true "hardware kill switch" is impossible.
But a separate modem needs extra power, space, costs etc.

d. With a Qualcomm SoC as in the Pro1 an (technically excellent) integrated modem comes for free, while NXP's (Librem) and Allwinner's (PinePhone) SoCs lack one, because they are designed for embedded control applications; hence they have to use a separate modem anyway.

e. I doubt that a true "hardware kill switch" will work fine even for a separate modem, so I am really curious to see how these switches are implemented in the final schematics (of e.g. Librem and PinePhone) and / or to hear how well they works in practice.

But yes, I am long convinced that there is a small but very vocal group of believers, who direly want something called "hardware kill switch", even if it makes the device bigger, heavier, more expensive, running hotter, reduces battery runtime etc.
Still I do not believe that this group will generate significant sales, especially as the niche of devices with "hardware kill switches" is already occupied by two at the moment.
But a separate modem, when technically unneeded, would reduce the appeal of a device for the average user.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

No, you didn't say that. You said:
>>'open source' (no lib-hybris, etc.)

No lib-hybris basically means going Purism way. Using only components with open drivers available, and creating your operating system on that base. Which leads obviously to:
1. Very few options for hardware at all, and most of them outdated already (well, some people do not mind, but it makes even harder to make it succeed. Many people are already complaining of 'outdated' cpu of the Pro1, which is still quite top-tier, if compared to open source ones available)
2. Creating a new operating system (or at least parts of it) takes time. Long time. Which results as even more outdated hardware when (/if) the phone ever gets ready. This is exactly what's happening with Purism right now (and Necuno too I guess). And happened to Jolla years ago, even as they used libhybris etc.

But I guess the most important part of your message was
There's always hope! New hope given by Luke Skywalker or some new Hope Tech components, or something else.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Bonus points for injecting a classic Mt. Bike brand into your point ;)

x

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

There is no requirement to build your own operating system if you are using kernel drivers, that's just crazy.

Sailfish works fine without libhybris provided the hardware has kernel drivers, as do others in the space like Plasma Mobile, Ubuntu Touch .etc. Even Android could be a possibility using open kernel drivers

Purism chose to make their own OS for their own reasons, others like Pine phone and Necunos certainly aren't doing that.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

I have had purchases blocked by my bank. After I contacted my bank and explained it to them I tried the purchase again and it went through.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

From this tweet, what I understand is the first batch is already locked, so maybe they edited the FAQ to take into account the next batch and avoid disappointing new people ordering (?).


Thanks, didn't see videos as recent as this one for Anbox running on Sailfish. It seems to be working okayish, really a shame that development has stopped. It would be interesting to see if Michal has extra information, and if someone is planning on taking over the work.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Not exactly, left my scale in the shop, sry.
But i had all 3 devices shown in below screenshot of Leszeks video in hand and when i recall correctly, the pro1 (middle) was only very slightly heavier than the XA2 Ultra (left). That is known to weigh 221g.
My guesstimate is the Pro1 prototype we had at Froscon does weigh between 230 and 250g.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

That's a very logical and precise estimation. Final sample weights 241 grams. Lies in the middle of your range. :D

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

\o/
I only wrote the official (non disturbing) version.
What was actually going on in my chef head was:
ok, 1 Nigiri riceball is 10g. Was the difference greater than 3 riceballs? No, so lets underestimate and say between 1 and 3 riceballs more than the XA2 which i then looked up its weight and posted :D

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

As Chen mentioned above, 241g. Wonder if dimensions changed at all too
They should update the site if they haven't already

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Probably the dimensions have already been carved into the stone tablets, only the weight has not been finally measured...

Also the lack of weight information may be due to how many riceballs are included in the sales package?

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

To this day, I'm still longing for an up-to-date resistive screen (even without a stylus), instead of this capacitive crap we've been fed with for ages :(

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

since I exchanged 3 resistive digitizers on N900 and left with dead one again, I'm glad that they moved to something more reliable. There are more than enough decent styluses for capacitive screens.
Not to mention active one from Note.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Isn't it nice that Christmas comes earlier this year? Before December? - Only few weeks... And then...

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

well, they just died. They even replaced MB after the second one died but it continued on the new MB. And honestly, I don't miss it at all. The precision it provides was needed on smaller screens but today not so much. And UIs are much more finger friendly designed.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

I also think it is quite hard to find full-hd Amoled display with resistive? Or am i wrong? - N9 was, and is still better to use than N900 (ok, depends how one use it, but anyway. My opinion...).

This song comes always to my official and qualified ears when i read whining about "...no resistive display, won't use..."

Live for today by Sweet : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAGXY79Yg24

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

of course that is needed. My point is that they are precise enough. Pick some keyboard with cursors keys and that's it.
Recent study showed that even majority of note users don't use stylus. I agree that OEMs are tossing turds and gimmicks all the time all over the place but not everything was better 10 years ago.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

I am just wondering, what would be the use case where resistive screen and stylus are must? Drawing pictures on a phone perhaps? What else? Because I haven't found any situation where I'd prefer resistive screen. In old devices with very small screens and non-zoomable views, it would of course be useful to use a sharp stylus and resistive screen, but where else?

I'm using N900 as my daily driver, and regarding the hardware, I'd say the resistive screen is the second biggest minus for me, just after the battery performance. In daily use, I don't find resistive screen very 'precise'. For example, when scrolling a long list of alarm times in alarm clock, it's almost impossible to adjust your finger force correctly to make the list scroll from the top to the middle. It scrolls always either a few lines down or straight to the bottom, but almost never to the middle :D It's annoying. Perhaps it would be easier with the stylus, but taking it out for a simple scroll breaks the UX.

In modern smartphones with capacitive screens, there is not any very small elements in the OS to tap, so in daily use you don't even need 'precision'. If you think about Android, there is a lot of finger tapping but the buttons are big enough to tap. In Sailfish, the buttons are ofter replaced with swipes, so even less precision needed. Also the bigger screen + easy 2-finger zoom makes network browsing more comfortable as you don't need to press tiny buttons. (Also the sites have became more mobile device friendly but I don't know if that's only positive thing). And when you don't have to use force while swiping, it's actually much easier to make 'precise' moves with your fingers. Also the OS has became smarter to read your finger moves. For example, if there's four small buttons which all of them fit under your thumb at the same time, the OS still knows which of them you meant to tap. I'm not implying that resistive screen lovers haven't tried modern capacitive screens, but if you haven't, you definitely should do. When I bought my first smartphone (it was Motorola Defy, capacitive screen, perhaps 2009) the touchscreen first felt scary. I remember what it felt like when I typed my email credentials to the email app with the virtual keyboard. It felt like "how I ever can press these tiny buttons, as I can press four buttons with one finger at same time". But I could, and got used to it very quickly. The OS was smarter than I first thought it to be. And both the screens and the os have been getting better since 2009. I still prefer hwkb for typing, and because of that I bought the Pro1 :) But I'd like to hear what are the use cases where resistive screen is definitely needed, although it might be slightly off-topic.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

If you need to draw with precision, just get a Samsung Note 9 or higher.
Kthnxbye

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

There's a lot of examples in the Look What I Drew on My Phone thread that illustrate the creative potential of the resistive screen. Not that it's impossible to create art in other media, including a capacititve screen, but, like oil versus acrylic, it would be a different work in a different medium.

My other thought is cold weather use. Those so-called "touchscreen compatible" gloves really aren't warm enough when it's very cold out -- at least not for me. I suppose that's the reason that in-car touchscreens and those on gas pumps are still resistive.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

I don't draw, yet I believe the reasoning behind asking "in which use cases do we need accuracy?" is flawed. In many cases it's not needed because applications were designed to comply with a lower accuracy, like the zoom to select text in Sailfish (which is way better than the Android system by the way, in Android, accuracy would still be welcome on this point), big UI buttons, gestures, larger screens, and so on. And it works well enough. But still, why would we consider that accuracy is a bad thing and that we're better off now that we parted with it? Browsing TMO on the N900 was great because it was not necessary to zoom in to tap on the next page link. I can't tap on the next page without zooming in now. And since there is no stylus in modern times (capacitive stylus do not improve accuracy, and Wacom digitizers are something very different that will never be included in all screens), I have to guess if the link is still under my finger when my finger obstructs the view.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying resistive screens are great and that everything was better 10 years ago. We have to weigh in what we got from capacitive screens, they are cheaper, usually more scratch resistant, very responsive, and they dominate the market so they exist in a wide variety of technologies (AMOLED for instance) and resolutions. The main problem I have with them is they actually are too responsive. There is no difference between barely touching them involuntarily and actually making an action, while a good quality resistive screen did react differently to both kinds of contacts.

I'm still happy with all the phones I had after my N900 and they had capacitive screens. I'm just saying there is no point in trying to tell one technologies defeats the other one on every aspect. They both have pros and cons, which is why it's a shame that we have no choice anymore. Just like mate and glossy laptop screens.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Do you have N9? I have use that, and still use, in rain and never fail me... Don't know about other phones...

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

That's surprising, I used to live in the artic circle and I never managed to freeze any capacitive screens, despite being outside quite often. Perhaps because I always carry my phone in my pockets, not in a bag. The problem was gloves though, or the inability to use a tool/pen/stylus/key to contact the screen. I know some capacitive-friendly gloves exist, but these are not serious gloves, and no need to mention how inaccurate it can get when wearing gloves.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Resistive works better in cold climate (and the conductive gloves needed for capacitive screens are not really comfy/warm...)
Resistive work in damp environments, even underwater.

Re: Are you Ready? F(x)tec Pro 1 HW Keyboard Phone
 

Does the Pro1 support double-tap to wake? (and also does this work in the sailfish port yet, if so?)