Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Unless you are a long term investor, the stock market is gambling. The long term investors are sitting firm on their Nokia stocks, while the 2-3% rest are governing the price by speculating. Already the stocks are valued much less than the value of the company.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Everything is gambling in that sense just with reduced risk. HFT is more than purely gambling but it does have added risk.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

In other words, it is gambling, for everyone. If the price is random and governed by speculation you can't make rational decisions on it.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Not exactly. The price is what it is based on buy and sale. It's the same with real estate and gold for instance. Other things are based more solid on demand, food and energy, things that cannot be stored indefinitely or have small storage capacity.

It is more a question of why you are buying and selling stocks on an individual basis. Small time investors are typically gambling, unless they put their money in solid funds (not funds that are purely made for speculation though). But even then, you could say it is gambling, because the alternative is the bank.

If no one traded Nokia stocks, then the price would be unknown. Then if one person sold one single stock, the price of that would decide the price for all stocks. What is deciding the price right now, is that very few believe that they can buy stock now and sell it later with profit. That is, very few that trade with the 1-3% of the stocks that are available. The large investors are there because they believe Nokia will make profit, they aren't there to make profit by trading stocks.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I'm not sure what you mean here, if the large investors believe Nokia will make a profit then that belief is in some sense still somewhat based on speculation. That is if they are in it for the profit. This is a social science and probability plays a large part whether we are talking about commodities or derivatives, it makes little difference.

It isn't gambling in the sense that good investors are the casino, the casino is not itself a gambler but it still relies on probability for profit, bad investors are the true gamblers who have no idea what they are doing but want to make a quick buck based on poor probability.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

who the hell care about nokia:

https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/JollaM...40251670298624

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Umm... it's just a login page.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

It doesn't work like that. A big investor set the terms and is often a participant at board level. Who do you took the final decision that Nokia should go all WP? The board. To go WP may even have been the main term for continued investment by the main investers. How the "industry" reacts means nothing, what the stock price becomes means nothing. The only thing that matters is to stay focused and make it happen. Go for the possibilities, the oppurtunities.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Well, I suppose the only person who can save Nokia is Lumiaman; he has enough hot air to lift Nokia stock single handedly.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I seriously doubt it. Smart money has left Nokia stock long ago and this means the long term, non-speculative, savvy investors. Most pension funds and institutional investors have rules to cut losses if stocks go below a certain point.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Wow, look at that 5 day graph. https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp...YSE:NOK&ntsp=0

That's down 10% in five work days. At that trend, it'd be 1.40 in three weeks. Or if you look at the previous month, down a dollar, that'd be 1 dollar around next month.

IF Elop was right and ttly saved Nokia by pissing all over Symbian and firing everybody who worked with innovation, you could jump in and make a fortune now. Ahaha. Haha. HAHAHA.

No.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I don't know where you are from, but where I'm from the private initiative and enterprise is always king. Companies aren't ruled by the stock market, the are ruled by people. The stock market is mainly just a mechanism to place investments, to spread your risk and capital and get a higher return than putting money in a bank or purchase gold and diamonds. In return, the companies get fresh cash. And of course lots of people speculate.

With the results Nokia have, fresh capital from the stock market is out of the question in any case. This means that the stock is irrelevant. The only way for Nokia to survive is the current major investors don't loose faith, at least not before they start earning money again. If they run out of money, then the only hope is that the investors inject some, which I believe they will if it comes to that. But they typically won't do that before the company is slimmed to the bone.

If you believe that Nokia will make it, now is the time to invest. But that is high risk speculation. The current main investors aren't doing that, they are trying to make it work. They are interesting in Nokia making profit, and are in a position to guide the ship. They are in for the long run, with no intentions of jumping ship if/when the stock price rises.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85315

:D

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Just bought some more NOKIA at $1.97 good US dollars. I think they will do well with WP8, and that is my bet.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Well! Now this is kinda hopeful, but with a history of dashed hopes and ruined potential, I'm not holding a lot of optimism just yet. Still.. this is definitely interesting to watch.

Thanks for that post!

But I thought you already said they will do well with Windows Phone 7 back when they burned their platforms and decided to jump onto the Microsoft platform? How are we to believe you now?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

He sounds like Elop. "WP7, ecosystem, it has it. Oh wait, that won't upgrade. So WP8 for the win!"

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I understand that the board make the decisions and that large stakeholders run things. What I don't understand is how an investor is not speculating if they "believe" that it will turn a profit. Still confused by the explanation. Are you explaining primary capital markets? What exactly do you mean by a big investor? How the public (or "industry" as you call it) reacts is of great importance in securing capital. The risk will always be there for the large investors who do the underwriting, or the individual stakeholder with or without privileges. Staying focused and making it happen stops when you run out of money and securing that money is based on risk. Nokia's "Junk status" is in fact a measure of this risk, when it hits BB+ it becomes "speculative grade", when it goes below (which it has done), it means it's high risk, don't invest if you plan to profit with a degree of certainty.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/rati...nd-faqs/en/us/

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

You are mixing two things, running/owning a company and investing your money in the stock market. If the main investors at Nokia simply was looking for a place to invest their money, they would be out a long time ago. Clearly they have other objectives. That objective is a genuine one, and it is to make Nokia a healthy company in the mobile industry, a top world wide producer of phones and services.

You can compare it to F1 racing, another multi billion industry. You can bet on the teams (stock market), you can do commercials, media, arrange races. There is a whole lot you can do, and last but not least, you can invest in a team as the main investor, be the financial backbone of a F1 team. Typically they are are car manufacturers, but they can be anything, and several are pure private companies doing nothing but racing. The only reason to do this, is because you have a passion for F1 racing. It's the same thing with the main Nokia investors, they have a passion for the mobile industry, or simply a passion for Nokia. A main investor wouldn't just quit because the team have a few bad seasons, not even if the team is in a steep down hill run, he would commit even more until they manage to turn it around or death is certain.

The private initiative and enterprise is king. The bean counters in the stock market means nothing, they are playing a whole different game.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Passion and politics, I get that investment isn't always about money. Being one of very few in Europe also helps Nokia.
I don't expect the major stakeholders to give up either if it's their jobs on the line. I didn't mix up the two though, I used the term stakeholder and specifically mentioned earlier "that is if you are in it for the profit". You mentioned them as big investors, not those who own/run the company so I asked you to clarify what you mean by the term "big investor".

Still, for Nokia employees, passion means nothing if you have a costly hobby that somebody else is funding. It's actually mostly the major investors you mention that do not care for "passion". Just look at your own example of F1 if maemo itself wasn't enough. The Jaguar F1 team (no longer exists). Ford was the big investor behind that team. Ford did not want to invest in the Jaguar team anymore because it was costly and they received no direct advertising. The "owners"/employees of that team became Red Bull Racing, its "big investor" changed as did the team name, it was now Red Bull.

If you wish you can get into the philosophy of what "Nokia" actually is. The name? the people behind the product? The big investors? Highly passionate companies do go under every day, or their names or investors may change but clearly the people behind it do not die when the company name does. If that's what you are saying then you are stating the obvious.

Nokia don't even seem passionate to me anyway so I'm not sure why you even mention it. They are clearly a prime example of "profit at any cost" (oxy*****?). Job cuts and killing their own products (maemo/meego) doesn't scream "passion", it screams CFO trying to get out of the red.

Edit: wow, oxystupid censor has gone too far.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Nokia shares go below 1.50 euros. On the positive side, they have now started growing lettuce and strawberries on the terraces and roofs of the Nokia House (I kid you not). Strawberries can easily fetch about 4-5€/litre on Helsinki street markets. That should help Elop and his fastly eroding cash supply little bit.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Apparently with their new management Nokia has "decided to leverage their core competency in rubber boot production to maximize synergy with their new endeavor of cutlivating Fragraria x ananassa for the purpose of entering the lucrative fruit market" - thereby finally hitting Apple where is really hurts ;).

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

FBR Capital Cuts Price Target on Nokia (NOK)
NOK share price closed on NYSE yesterday at $1.84 and is currently sitting a couple of percent down at $1.80 in pre-market.

Edit: Stock open for trading, currently at $1.80

More on analyst downgrades

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Could Nokia go bankrupt?

http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...4-f6c2294dcb38

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

You live in your own distortion reality. Stock investors whether big or small are in for the money first and sentiment usually doesn't even figure at all. You should read more, talk more to real people and gain more experience before you make statements like these. Most of your opinionated postings are the product of your fertile imagination cooked up in the ivory tower of your room with no grounding in reality. The reason Nokia's shares are crashing is because investors are pulling out their money and they are not a tiny majority as you supposed.

Now you are seriously confusing venture capitalists with stock market investors.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Wonder what the stock rebound percentage would be if they announced Elop's instant dismissal?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

@robbiec
No, it's just only the last gesticulation before death.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Could nokia go bankrupt, was a question. I have another. Could they not? Can they survive another year like this? I doubt it.

I don't see ANY way for Nokia to get sufficient 12Q3-13Q2 sales than to immediately release a full Android range to again catch the eye of ex-symbian customers happily residing there. Windows phone just doesn't attract enough people at this point.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

There's been a few investor stories and bulletins around this morning suggesting now is a good time to buy NOK shares, and this has reflected in the price - now currently up 5% in pre-market to $1.89. Seems a long time since I've been able to say Nokia share price is up! :)

I'm not convinced by it though. NOK is a magnet for short trading and options traders, and that earnings call is looming over the horizon.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Congratulations. In 4 days you have lost nearly 10% of your investment.

I gather that is on top of losses from the $5/stock you bought earlier?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I'm assuming Lumiaman is playing the 'long' game and over 3 or 4 years he may see a healthy return on his investment. It's not impossible to see a sucessful Nokia returning to $3-$4, possiblty a little more. He's bet everything on WP8 being a success, but that is far from a certainty. It may even be the least likely outcome, and in any other instance he could (and possibily very badly) lose a lot of his investment.

So the 'long' game may still work out for him. In the meantime, you have to wonder could his money be earning better for him elsewhere? I'd say yes.

Edit; I had missed the $5/stock the first time, hopefully he doesn't have too much of that in his portfolio and a lot more of the $1.90's. Expecting much return on $5 NOK is very optimisitc imo, but I hope it works out for him :o

Edit 2: Stock opened for trading up a little at $1.84

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

His long game is 2 years and he expects it to hit $10 in May. He has kept repeating "time to buy more" every month for almost a year I believe, claiming it has hit rock bottom a while back. He could have waited like any smart person would. I wouldn't take his advice seriously, I doubt he even has a vested interest in Nokia other than a psychological one. I believe come July 20th it can go slightly lower.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

LOL :D Bean counter talk by a bean counter obviously. Passion, power, control, winning, loosing, creating, destroying. That is what governs this world. If you had some money you would understand. Money is just the tool you need to make it happen.

As I said. Two different games

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

You guys talking about buying now... how much disposable income do you truly have to lose in a gamble as such?

Nokia's stocks are not turning around anytime soon.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I'm on a negative result on nokia but a vary good overall result of the year. If you only investing in one company, I doubt nokia is the right one. But if you go wide and buy stocks in let's say 50 companies you can easy buy stocks in companies where Noone believes in and buy more when the values goes down. When it turns you have a lot of shares and can capitilze on all the short term players. Sure you lose everything from time to time. But the main thing: follow your strategy if it's successfully and analyze you current position as often as you can and need.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Even as low as the price is now, I'd sooner short their stock than go long (buy it). Whilst Elop remains in charge, it's a one way ticket to 0 / buyout / breakup, as has been obvious since the WP announcement.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I think nokia has hit bottom now and will raise very small 20 july. In short run...

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Without talk of a takeover, that won't happen.

Symbian sales are still crashing, and the 808 will do nothing to arrest that, given the way both it, its launch and availability have been totally neutered by Nokia

Lumia handsets continue to sell disastrously, and sales are plummeting even further since the WP8 announcement.

The only end in sight is the end, for now.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

That's a reasonable question. I bought a lot but at a low enough price I can write it off without crying. Much.

I've lost far more on energy, pharmaceutical and future tech. Thank you, Old Money, for your continued market manipulation and resistance to change!

As for Nokia, let me share a little story. I may have shared before; sorry for any redundance.

In 2002 I was let go from a great job and walked off with over $2000 from my 401k. I dumped it into an IRA and started considering where to invest. We were all still reeling from the 2000 dotcom bust and it had rippled far, wide and deep into tech stocks of all kinds.

Corning glass (GLW) was really beaten down. I saw them at around $1.90 and my interest was piqued. I knew they held significant patents in fiber and exotic glass applications (Gorilla glass, anyone?). I knew the slump would not last forever, and sooner or later fiber to the home was going to happen. So I bought several hundred dollars worth. My gut instinct said to get more but like a good investor I built a balanced portfolio.

By 2008 GLW was over $25 and I cashed in about 90% of my holdings. Cha-CHING!

Then the market took another dump and my other stocks made up for it. And then some.

(The funny part of this story is that my stepfather had 2 million $ to invest in 2003 and I told him to sink a ton into GLW. Of course he ignored me.)

Now here's NOK sitting at that same seductive price point. So I look at it objectively and yes, I see some patents, and yes, I see some cool stuff in the pipeline-- but I'm missing that gut feeling that says NOK is the same sleeper now that GLW was then. Too much has changed. And outside of their Nokia Seimens Networks venture, they're at the wrong end of the business.

If Nokia's prospects don't improve dramatically by the end of this year, then IMO every long holder-- self included-- is screwed. Period.

(PS: I started buying back into GLW at around $8 a share)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

This http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/...or-smartphones consumer survery indicated 0.3% marketshare for Nokia's Lumia range, of the US smartphone market, in Q2 '12. That's 1/3rd of Symbian's marketshare in the US ...