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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   Nokia N900 (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
-   -   Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44155)

danramos 2010-02-11 22:07
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 521881)
Progress comes from constructive criticism, not abject whining.
In principle, I agree.. however, even the whining is constructive if you approach it correctly. You cannot expect everyone to have a mind for constructive criticism--some people can experience something, say driving a car, and explain precisely the problem they seem to feel to be the problem. Others, on the other hand, can drive the same vehicle and claim that they simply didn't like the car but lack the articulation of language or the experience to be able to place their finger on precisely the details that could be improved to make the vehicle a much better drive. Ultimately, their opinion (or whining, as you put it) might still be perfectly valid. The object SHOULD be to persuade customers with such a good experience that whining of any sort should be at a minimum despite their ability to articulate the experience into words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakiman (Post 521897)
I disagree. There usually is a very good reason why people whine.
You cannot expect all great ideas to come from nice and constructive comments.
You summarized my point, precisely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 521907)
Well, I'm only speaking from personal experience of course. I've seen that people who can effect improvements tend to tune out whiners because they offer little substance and a lot of noise. Therein lies the difference with and advantage of constructive criticism.
Or, to look at it another way, the people who can effect improvements might need to improve their ability to understand the whining better. After all, the mission SHOULD be to provide customers (as many as possible) with what they want--it should not be to provide only the most articulate of them with what they want. ...unless, that's your business model (business to business, for instance)... but with the N900, I sincerely doubt that business-to-business is its main goal, given its shortcomings as a phone and with Outlook integration, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger_27 (Post 521988)
funny funny!!

guess one wrong post and I get eternal damnation!
I saw that! I couldn't believe people would be so nasty.. but I saw it.
On the other hand, maybe they were just trying to welcome you and promote Hell, Michigan.

Brank 2010-02-11 22:09
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
I welcome the criticism, but storming in to make a thread about how **** this device is according to you while you haven't taken the time before to find out what it can and can't do, that's just a waste of everyones time.

If you have to return this device because you don't like it, you haven't done your research on it, and have just gone for something shiny. Too bad you only saw a raw diamond, but it's getting refined.
If you're a business user you probably don't have time to wait for the refinement or then you have the means to keep this baby in your top drawer waiting for its glorious future, and have another business phone in use until then.

ot but kudos to the mods who have been making awesome tags today for pages :)

mullf 2010-02-11 22:10
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 522000)
I saw that! I couldn't believe people would be so nasty.. but I saw it.
That was a joke, and meant to be connected to the tag that followed it, as one sentence.

Texrat 2010-02-11 22:11
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 522000)
Or, to look at it another way, the people who can effect improvements might need to improve their ability to understand the whining better. After all, the mission SHOULD be to provide customers (as many as possible) with what they want
In principle, I agree-- with the caveat that when signal-to-noise favors noise by a significant margin, you are better off focusing precious time on contributors who already have the necessary skills and/or the willingness to refine their approach. I'm betting you'll find that this is the rule in practice. I've never known anyone in a problem-solving position who could afford to process every single input-- especially the noisiest ones.

As far as the "as many as possible" part goes, check into the philosophy of "firing your troublesome customers". ;)

fatalsaint 2010-02-11 22:15
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 522000)
In principle, I agree.. however, even the whining is constructive if you approach it correctly. You cannot expect everyone to have a mind for constructive criticism--some people can experience something, say driving a car, and explain precisely the problem they seem to feel to be the problem. Others, on the other hand, can drive the same vehicle and claim that they simply didn't like the car but lack the articulation of language or the experience to be able to place their finger on precisely the details that could be improved to make the vehicle a much better drive. Ultimately, their opinion (or whining, as you put it) might still be perfectly valid. The object SHOULD be to persuade customers with such a good experience that whining of any sort should be at a minimum despite their ability to articulate the experience into words.
Dan.. while I think I do understand the point you're trying to make.. and have tried to make many, many times over the course of many, many "whining" threads.. You're still missing one very important thing.

If the person just doesn't like the car and the other person says "Can you tell me why?" and the other person just sits there "Well.. it just doesn't FEEL right.. you know when you push on the clutch, or shift on this.. it's just not right."

That's fine...

However.. if that person then hangs around that car.. and every person getting into the car they sit there going "This car sucks, you can't shift, the seat feels like ****, and the manufacturer eats babies"...

Well - no - there is nothing useful about that. And *that* seems to be the problem we have on these forums.

As I've said many, many times - I don't mind when people complain. They can complain in a well thought out, very detailed way - or a very ignorant (as in lack of knowledge) but friendly way.. and I don't care.

When they complain belligerently I get annoyed.. but not hostile.

When they complain again.. and again.. and again.. and insist on quoting every person that has something *good* to say about the N900 (car) and constantly regurgitate their same complaints again, and again....

No. That's not useful. It's downright annoying and ridiculous.

Although.. I can't say the OP was all that useful either.. but I understand the point - and even agree to a certain point.. but wasn't the best approach IMHO.

HumanPenguin 2010-02-11 22:24
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevdKathy (Post 521810)
I'll try hard to overlook the sexism. I think your underlying motivation is probably good: you're right that there will always be people who get the newest thing only to complain at what it won't do. (I have yet to get the n900 to make me a cup of tea in bed in the morning).

But remember when you paint with a broad brush, you create boxes that actually don't fit real people. Almost everyone reading what you have said will find some reason it doesn't fit them (in my case, I'm female, and while I run devices into the ground its with work. I don't 'just break' them.)

The pleas for less unconstructive whining (note, that's not constructive suggestions and the like) is well made, though.
What havent you seen fTeasMaid in extras-devel yet. It lacks a little functionality like

.fillTheKettle()
.turnKettleOn()
.findTeaBags()
.steepTea()

But we do have the tea steeping timer and are working on embedding it into the app.

It has a long way to go but we are ahead of the iPhone app. (I just gave it a name)

danramos 2010-02-11 22:25
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 522005)
In principle, I agree-- with the caveat that when signal-to-noise favors noise by a significant margin, you are better off focusing precious time on contributors who already have the necessary skills and/or the willingness to refine their approach. I'm betting you'll find that this is the rule in practice. I've never known anyone in a problem-solving position who could afford to process every single input-- especially the noisiest ones.

As far as the "as many as possible" part goes, check into the philosophy of "firing your troublesome customers". ;)
I don't entirely agree with that philosophy. Sometimes it means that the noise to signal ratio IS a part of the message.

"Firing your troublesome customers?" You mean like...
http://consumerist.com/2008/03/leaks...-document.html
or heck..
http://consumerist.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt...tag=best%20buy

You want Nokia to be the Best Buy of manufacturing? :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatalsaint (Post 522012)
However.. if that person then hangs around that car.. and every person getting into the car they sit there going "This car sucks, you can't shift, the seat feels like ****, and the manufacturer eats babies"...
Well, that's not whining--that's just being a jerk and slandering. Whining is when you've tried it and don't like it and complain.. or even if you didn't try it, but it's lacking what you wanted and you complain about THAT. The latter is actually USEFUL if you bother to listen, the example you gave isn't useful in almost any circumstance and doesn't really fit the criteria of 'whining' so much as undermining.

fatalsaint 2010-02-11 22:30
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 522024)
Well, that's not whining--that's just being a jerk and slandering. Whining is when you've tried it and don't like it and complain.. or even if you didn't try it, but it's lacking what you wanted and you complain about THAT. The latter is actually USEFUL if you bother to listen, the example you gave isn't useful in almost any circumstance and doesn't really fit the criteria of 'whining' so much as undermining.
In this forum.. I don't see a difference. I don't attack threads where someone is "whining" if that's the only place I've seen them in...

If I've seen them in a dozen different threads.. and they said the same thing in all of them... that's when it starts to really get annoying. And I am pretty sure that's where most of the people attacking "whining" are really coming from.

roger_27 2010-02-11 22:31
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
what if you complain about people who whine about people who complain? :p

that is exactly where I was coming from fatal saint

Arrancamos 2010-02-11 22:39
Re: Stop negativity- Most of u here are temporary
 
Learn to read between lines.
Try to understand other ppl view.
Take the positive ideas from other ppl feedback.
And do sum. mean write in a positive way, mean do construct!

Did this post sum o not sum? uhmmm


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