Re: Ask the Council!
 

sandipkrsharma's questions regarding N900 issues have been moved to their own thread, "Questions on battery life, sudo password, and rootfs space". Please continue that conversation there. Thank you.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

For the same reason that drive-through ATMs have braille on the buttons.

Dave.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Dave,

While we all respect your views, this isn't "Ask the Docmaster," this is "Ask the Council," and as such, you are barred from poaching questions.

But now that you've started it, you must continue. What does the male-nippple-ATM-braille actually say?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

"oh, that tickles!"

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Oh man. Now t.m.o. moderators think they can answer questions in this thread. Since you're a moderator, Flandry, could you just change the name of this thread to something like, "Ask the Council and get answered by some random person!"

Re: Ask the Council!
 

It may come as no surprise that they only gave me dominion over Games and Off-topic and such. ;)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Oooh - excuse *me*.

Basically, the marginal benefit is outweighed by the marginal cost.

ATM & braille: the cost of making a special production kit for drive-through ATMs without the braille keys would outweigh the benefit (which is basically zero) of not having them on there.

Men & nipples: The increased complication in the human reproductive system evolving in such a way as the males didn't have nipples and the females did outweighs any evolutionary advantage that mutation would have - thus, in the unlikely event that some combination of genetic mutations produced a nippleless male, he wouldn't have any significant evolutionary advantage & would in fact be a bit weird & unattractive - and so if every there was a nippleless man, he died an old maid with no offspring.

People, and evolutionary mutations, respond to incentives. Basic econ 101 ;)

Cheers,
Dave.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

That's better. While expanding on your original answer, you didn't answer my question, thus respecting the thread's title.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Moderator, please change thread title to Qole Rules.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Dear council members,

I think time for words is well past behind us and it is now time for actions. I would like to know if you intend to take any step following the discussion in the tread entitled : "Cleaning N900 FUD" ?

Merci beaucoup
Thank you very much
Grazie mille

Re: Ask the Council!
 

(EDIT: Mandor removed most of his post above. If you're curious as to what I'm talking about below, please see this post)

Mandor,

Honestly, most of those questions either can't be answered by Quim due to NDAs (eg Flash availability) or the complete lack of an answer at this point (eg the future Meego community structure), they have already been answered in the thread where you posted your questions, or in other threads here (eg RPM vs deb), or they're just snarky insults (eg customers as beta testers). If you read carefully, you'll be able to fill in most of that form yourself.

If you are still feeling in a helpful mood (that's how this community works), you could go over to wiki.maemo.org and set up a page with the answers you know, and then ask others to fill in what they know.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Frankly Qole, I don't care much about the list. I would like to see something happening following the discussion we had. That is all. I will edit my previous post accordingly.

So the question to the council remains.

Your point about the wiki is, of course, well taken.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

What is the significance of a council member beginning the process of compiling known information and open questions in the wiki as opposed to any other community member doing the same thing?

(qole: That's a question, not an answer, and therefore acceptable in this thread, right?)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I am sorry to have bothered you all. I misunderstood the conclusions/suggestions of the "Cleaning N900 FUD" thread.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

No bother at all. And maybe I was the source of the confusion by suggesting to Quim that the council can help moderate certain discussions. If so, sorry for that.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Any questions for current candidates for the upcoming election?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Well, I will fire the first round if you don't mind.

I have seen comments from old-timers (or experienced users if you prefer) regarding the flood of new users joining Maemo.org after they bought the N900. Some feels that t.m.o doesn't feel the same as before because all we can read these days are posts asking for help to solve a problem and FUD posts

To put it in a sentence : t.m.o was a developers forum and now it's an after sale support forum.

A well know example (for those old enough) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

Question 1 : What would you do to help new comers feel welcome and keep old timers around ? Or if you prefer, how would you build the bridge between new comers and old-timers so that everyone can share this site together and still find what they were looking for ?

Question 2 : What do you think end-users and developers should do / learn to help each other make t.m.o and Maemo better ?

PS: Please fell free to correct me if you feel I am wrong in any way.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I just want to pipe up as a member of the current not-dead-yet council that I think that the belief that talk.maemo.org changed completely when the flood of N900 users came is complete and utter bullsh*t.

Talk really hasn't changed a whole lot. It has always been very end-user oriented. But, like anyone who has imbibed a great deal in a short time, Talk is just more itself than ever before. This is like Talk with no inhibitions ;)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

1. What I've already done was start the successful Maemo Greeters, suggesting volunteers include helpful links in their signatures. I think that's helped "build the bridge". And I know it's a small thing, but I also spend time greeting newcomers in the Welcome thread under General. I would like to think even that little bits helps.

Old-timers just need to feel they're still relevant when things change. That can be tough. But there are plenty of projects so it could be a matter of making people feel welcome enough to help.

What I need to do more often is breathe deeply before replying to antagonistic posts. Newcomers don't need to walk into a hostile environment.

2. End-users and developers need to quit worrying about titles like "end-user" and "developer". We're all technology enthusiasts or we wouldn't be in this thing. Let's focus on what we have in common and also recognize that everyone has an important part to contribute regardless of their skills, likes, etc.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

A summary I've seen frequently, but a very inaccurate one, unfortunately. Talk (formerly itT) was never particularly developer-oriented, but it was very much an enthusiast's forum, the population of pure end-users was nearly non-existent. It was a community of engaged users, not just developers.

I disagree, the focus on Talk has changed. The previous devices didn't do well in the maintsream market, and most of the traffic here came from engaged users. The N900 has much more mainstream appeal and with it it has brought with it a lot of pure end-users. They're not interested in sticking out for the long-term and they're not interested in contribution. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but Talk has changed, it's not the same place it was a year ago. :)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

First, thanks everyone for your answers !

I applaud your initiative.

Do you think that a clear explanation of what and how a new user can contribute would increase their likeliness of contribution ? I am just throwing that into the discussion : I am a new user and would like to be useful to the community but I don't know how to be useful. How do I report properly a bug using Bugzilla ? I am not a coder, what can I do for the community, Maemo 5 and the N900 ? How can I help others help me (or how to properly ask a question to get the answer I am looking for). Is there a list of wiki pages that are in need of love ? Is there a list of community projects that new members could help with ? etc ...

I think you nailed it more than I did.

That is sure not the job of a council member to keep "pure end-users" around when Nokia changes focus to the next device. That being said, what should be done to get them interested in contributing while they are on Maemo.org ? What do you think could make them switch from "forum-lurker" to "contributor" ?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I still believe that if you sign up for talk.maemo.org to ask a question or participate in a discussion, you are an engaged user.

I do not belong to any Microsoft Windows forums. That's because I use Windows because its there, not because I like it.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

On this, do you have an idea of the effectiveness of this initiative?
I'm really curious to know whether initiatives like this one are effective at diverting some of the "OMG I can't launch app XX. plz help"-style threads.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

On this point I strongly disagree. Asking a question then disappearing forever is not the sign of an engaged user anymore than entering your name and email information into a company's online support form would be.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

It's hard to quantify that success, but the feedback I received indicated it was very helpful. To take it a step further, I think signatures could be better formatted to better draw attention. Something to consider...

Re: Ask the Council!
 

You do have a point. I would qualify qole's statement to add "most" to users and "who stick around" as well. ;)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Absolutely, and there are initiatives in place to address that (some in limbo due to MeeGo). If I am re-elected, improving that will be one of my top priorities... with the understanding that most solutions will apply more to the forthcoming community.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

If you ever happen to need help with that you can give me a call.

Is it possible for you to give examples of those initiatives ?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Sure to both.

One is the tester program VDVsx and Attila77 (et al) are working so hard on. Steadily they are improving the process and the ability of anyone to get involved.

Another is my project: the MeeGo User Experience Framework (feel free to suggest anything).

Even better: your own anti-FUD wiki article. ;)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Oh come on, internettablettalk.com had lots of those users too.

Everything has gotten bigger, but I really believe that all segments of the population are growing together. Sure, there are more trolls, whiners and ask-and-runners, but the engaged user base has grown dramatically too.

Sure, there are lots of stupid threads here, but there are lots and lots of interesting ones too. Even the noisiest, trashiest part of town, the N900 forum, is mostly full of honest questions and interesting discussions. Just look down the list of active threads. Most of them have titles like "Cisco PIX VPN Connect from N900" and "please help me to install vlc....".

I get pretty tired of the way the bad threads get all of the attention. To me, that's just what the trolls want. It is like how the security checkpoints at airports stopped allowing water bottles on aircraft after 9/11. Why are you letting the bad guys set your agenda?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I know you're tired of hearing this, but once they get their foot in the door, and and aren't dealt with quickly by staff, trolls will ramp it up until they get that attention.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I'd like to note this is not exclusively the case. I'm not exactly an active contributor I'd be the first to agree (due to my personal circumstances, I do hope to slowly turn this around), but I do help others out with problems where I can, especially concerning Qt, and whatever other stuff I can do.

And if it hadn't been for that more mainstream appeal of the N900, I'd not be here, simply because prior to that, my attitude was always '*ANOTHER* device? No. I want *ONE* that does more'.

And the n900 did that for me, and I'm fairly sure, quite a few others too.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Churn, like it or not, is always going to happen to greater or lesser degrees. What you are saying is of course correct: that with a higher volume of lesser engaged users, churn is going to be greater.

The challenge IMO is what can be done to engage that volume and help produce 'ideal citizens' out of it if you will.

I don't have the whole part of the answer there, but I think that outreach activities like the Maemo Greeters program was certainly a step in the right direction and I think more activities like that are a great idea. Users communities per country with, say, 6 month meetups aren't even that unfeasible with the volume that devices must be selling in now - imagine what that is going to be doing to the more gadget-enthusiast amongst them...

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Yeah. The forums could probably use a harsher attitude to things like this. But has this ever been brought up and properly discussed?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Good questions and I'll try to answer them as a prospective candidate. Thank you Texrat for your invitation in this thread.

Question 1:

First off I don't believe this forum ever was a developers forum. As GeneralAntilles said it has, is, and perhaps always will be an enthusiasts forum. I also agree with qole in his assertion that nothing has changed with the influx of N900 users.

Using your example of Eternal September referring to the the influx of freshmen, I believe if you examine the join dates of some of the "old-timers" responsible for some of the negative comments, you may see that they were not "old timers" at all.
Most of these snarky responses that I have seen came from members who joined a few months or at most a year before the new member asking the question.

Continuing with your example, sort of like a freshman room mate who got in first and picked the good bed and moved the dresser before you got there. Someone I will call "The eternal sophomore".

Question 2 :

This forum started out device oriented and not OS oriented. It was a privately owned, publicly viewed forum and as such had a benevolent dictator in Reggie, the owner. Then it was acquired by maemo.org and in a noble experiment, every member of maemo.org seemed to have a voice in its direction. This may have contributed to some of the eternal sophomore's empowerment. Unfortunately these sophomores are also the ones who most likely are, as GeneralAntilles put it, "not interested in sticking out for the long-term and they're not interested in contribution."

With MeeGo quickly approaching and the need for support for legacy Maemo devices, I believe that the forums should return to a device specific group of forums. Each device, legacy and new, should have its own forum with no more than 4 or 5 sub-forums for device specific subjects.

Each forum could establish its own style, moderation, and own specific posting guidelines as long as these do not contradict any general posting guidelines. The style and moderation of these forums will then come more naturally based on posting volume.

I also believe that the administration of the forums should return to an identified, perhaps council appointed, benevolent dictator.
This way the elected council would be accountable for the forums administration but not responsible for the day to day operation.

How can this help?

For one, it would put posts in better context. However the specific you used in your opening was "after sale support forum":

Enthusiasts will always come here after acquiring a new device. The specific forum for this device could, and should provide that new member with answers other than RTFM.
However, it is also my belief that this community should not be used by any manufacturer as a cheaper alternative to providing full customer support for the devices it intends to sell.
IMHO, this is something that needs to be looked at very carefully going forward. However, at this time a community council's input into matters such as this has not yet been clearly defined for me. But then again I'm slow like that.

BTW, one of the reasons I love this forum is that eventually all your questions will be answered. :p

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Many, many times.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

You're no pure end-user. :) Definitions are always so nebulous in discussions like these, but probably the most critical part.

Sure, but the proportions were inarguably different. A hobbyist device tends to attract a different crowd than a mainstream device. Talk has changed, whether you want to admit it or not.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Inarguably? hahahahaha! Is that your way of saying, "Stop arguing! I'm right!" ;):p:D

Re: Ask the Council!
 

You're both right. Shut up. :p

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I am going through this at the moment. First impression is that is pretty much what I am, as a end user, looking for. Congratulation !

Slide 5 : Is there really no other way to make a donation than with site like PayPal. Perhaps it should be integrated with your ovi account ? I just see this coming : "I wanted to make a donation but I was brought to PayPal. Is this a scam ? PayPal is not mainstream. If an end user got a Nokia phone and s/he is brought to Ovi.com for donation or better yet if it is integrated in the OS and told that, say, 2$ will be deduced from his/her Ovi account then I am sure donations would increase.

Slide 16 : Just a small comment. I would trigger the survey after the application has been launch for the fifth time. When I close an application it is often because I have something else do to and don't want to go through a survey at that time.

This whole process must be quick. An example :

Hi you are launching this application for the fifth time would you to give a feedback ?

YES --- NO --- Take survey later

If user says YES then :

Rate this application : 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
Donate to developer(s) : 1$ - 2$ - 5$
Go to application web page (where you can ask for enhancement for example).

As I am not always online I would like to be able to complete the survey offline. I guess it is possible to store the survey localy and then when the phone is connected it can be sent.

Slide 21 : Is it possible to have something a la Windows which automaticaly send a report ? If it takes more than 1-2 minutes you are at risk the end user will get tired and close the bug reporting application.

To make it simple : Speed and ease of use are key elements for bug reporting, donation and rating.