Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Yes actually it should. If you are willing to condemn him for it then it should be explicitly stated. Technically what he did didn't violate the rules.

I would also like to point out that if this guy was a company it would not have violated the rules to have his employees create and account and vote up the app. We should probably nip that in the bud before it becomes an issue. Assuming anyone planning commercial releases into this piss poor commercial environment is still considering doing so.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I feel the same that there's too much over reacting going on. Yes he broke the rules, but I at least feel that it's somehow justified at this point in time due to expected sharing grounds not being implemented.
Extras is the only viable option to sell apps at the moment, and that shouldn't be the case.

No one can deny that Ovi Store should've been up and running PROPERLY since pre-launch, yet it's still not functioning properly.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I think the question we should be discussing at this point is How does Nokia percieve this?

Extras was enabled by default due to a lot of hard work by this community. It was a great effort!

Unfortunately, we have now seen how easily and casually our efforts at providing quality software can be circumvented. If I were a Nokia higher up, I would have to re-think the decision to allow Extras to be enabled by default. At least until the community can show how we intend to prevent this type of abuse in the future.

Everyone warns how unsafe testing or devel may be. Clearly there is now evidence that Extras may be unsafe as well.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

One would hope Nokia would see this as a HUGE wake up call that they need to remove the digit that is firmly implanted in their anus and get the OVI store into shape.

I have no confidence that they will however

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

We're all so keen on claiming we're a community yet we don't act like one: in a community we support each other.

That means we praise someone when we does or delivers something good and when someone does something bad, we point out the wrong in his actions and expect an apology to which we grant forgiveness in return. I'm sure I can toss the world "synergy" and "ecosystem" somewhere in there :)

I'm not trying to defend his actions but come on! How about a realistic consideration: this a community, not an eutopia.

We do put a lot of faith in other members' trustworthness and we are bound, at some point, to be disappointed.

Like all issues, this one must be placed in context:
he did do something wrong and nothing I will say will make it acceptable but what he did was somewhat understandable.

How about we correct the issues in our QA process, remove his sticky thread from the games thread as punishment, and simply get him to go through the voting process again.

He (hopefully) learns his lesson and we modify the process to try and stop this from occuring again.

Sounds fair no?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I think that I have said quite many times that I will forgive, but off course there is some people who will not tolerate at all this kind of behaviour.

I still do not understand how you see Nokia as reason for his actions? Please try to explain me. I would never ever try to justify my actions by misfortune, bad luck or 3rd partys fck ups.

Maemos policies has nothing to do with Nokia's.

This is just one channel in endless possibility of other channels. Off course this has advantage of being enabled by default, but still i do not understand your point.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Amen..............

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Because ultimately Nokia is responsible. Look he shortcut the process - there is no question about that. Wasn't a cool thing to do but it also wasn't against the rules, so by the letter of the law (and no I am not a lawyer) he did nothing wrong.
But think about this it could have gone this way instead.

Dev Hears about maemo -> decides to port his product to platform -> ports product -> pays money to Nokia for rights to publish to store -> publishes product to correctly functioning store.

End of story. No thread here, no questionable practices, no moral outrage. All because Nokia did the correct thing and FIXED THE GODDAMN STORE.

Oh and one last point - I have searched and searched for the thread of moral outrage that took place when people discovered they could get the angry birds download for free. I can't find it. it seems people are only moral to a point and the stealing of software is apparently well within that point.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I couldn't have said it better myself

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Well, that's a view, but I think you're wrong. You can't legislate for people deliberately choosing to act badly, and you shouldn't have to. He can't possibly have been under any illusion that what he was doing was anything other than an abuse of the process, and that really is enough.

That seems to be exactly what has happened. No-one's thrown SIO2 out of the community, he didn't like being called on behaviour that I think we all agree was not right, and went off in a strop. Maybe he'll be back to do things properly next time, but that's up to him.

That seems to be the current state of play. So far at least, there hasn't been anything approaching a decision not to let him back in if he comes back and acts appropriately.

This seems to have run exactly as it should:
- Developer does bad thing,
- Bad thing gets caught,
- Bad thing gets reverted, and developer is asked to account for themselves.

Exactly which part of this process shouldn't have happened?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

There wasn't a thread as such, but there was definitely a good deal of moral outrage on the Angry Birds thread when people were boasting about having downloaded it without paying.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Well I see he has the source code for the games for sale. I've bought one of them, and I'll just post it here for everyone.

What? That's not bad right? I mean, there's nothing stopping me from doing it, so I don't think it should be such an issue. :D

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Ok now you are making the assumption that everyone sees the world as you do, you can't expect everyone to see right and wrong as you do. That's why clearly documented rules are important in both society and here. You have no way of knowing what his thoughts were when he did what he did. Perhaps his sole thought was to get his product out to the market the only way he could and that since the ovi store was not functional then getting it into extras as soon as possible was good for both him and the community that has time and time expressed a desire for commercial games of higher quality than the free ones.

Oh and laughingstock I think you will find the CLEARLY DEFINED rules within the agreement for purchase of that source code prevent you from doing any such thing. But feel free to give it a shot - I look forwards to the lawsuit thread :)

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Still nothing to do with Maemo.org repository rules and responsibility, policies and trust what is given here to dev's.

This is your mind game and yes this could be case if Nokia had managed to start their Store. And i´m also bit pissed because of their slow progress. But i do not see why on earth it would all this be Nokias fault. It's different totally different thing.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Clearly defined and circumventing are a matter of opinion. That's what I was trying to point out. THe fact that a single user can only vote once is a pretty "Clearly defined" limitation. Just because theres a loophole allowing someone to create multiple accounts to push their point does not mean its right.

Same thing. Just because I bought a copy of some source code and its "clearly defined" that I did indeed pay for one copy does not mean the same loophole doesnt exist when it comes to posting it all over the web.

Obvioulsy I havent bought any source code nor do I plan on it. But my point still stands. There were "clearly defined" limitations set when he discovered he could only vote once with one account.

Just because I jiggle a door handle and find it unlocked does not mean I should walk in.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Exactly, there were two different groups of users involved there...

Many of the people who first downloaded the pack were simply using well established and normal methods to access a repository. There wasn't anything to alert them that they were acting against the wishes of the system operator until they dug a little deeper. At which point the thread started and people realised what happened. I'm sure that the Rovio guys bear this group no ill-will

The second group of users were those who had read the threads discussing the problem and choosing deliberately to avoid paying. These guys were acting immorally.

The actions of this Sio guy fall squarely into the same class as the second group above.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I do not know others but I´m strongly against that and if i correctly remember I made some nice comment to user who is from our dear neighbour country.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Well, it kind of turned into a public shaming. That can be a valid action in some cases, but it shouldn't be anything but a last resort. That's why I think we need a formal process of some sort.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

And as far as the blaming Nokia part, that's just silly. If that was a valid argument in any case, anywhere, then parents would be getting executed for the actions of their children. That's not even worth an argument truthfully.

Granted, I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion and people should leave it well enough alone. The guy messed up, he psuedo apologized but obviously doesn't care, and he has that right.

Honestly, my personal opinion is I could give a ****. I think the games are shitty anyways. :D

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

This is a thread against what SIO2 Interactive did , and what about the proces s (open door , bug, how ever you want to call it) , and what abnout the OVI "STORE" , this is not all his fault and i do like his work an I do support and i`ll buy his games.

I want good aps and good games, we are not in the "inquisition" just looking people to blame is better to look for an solution to get,
user : better apps and games,
Dev : money for their work

Sorry for my english...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The correct process should have been,

"Hey guys! I've just put out a new version of my games. Please check them out and vote for them here (link) and let me know if they're ready to be pushed."

20 minutes later, guess what, they're pushed.

Instead, he took the shadey road. That's it in a nutshell.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Well good luck with that point of argument in a court of law.

Again you people are basing your arguments on your interpretation of the rules (which I will again point out do not say anything about this).You can be upset about it, you can choose to no longer support his software, but the postings here went far beyond that to the point of exclusion of this developer from all future maemo dealings etc.


Just because you see the word in one way i n no way means the rest of the populous has to see the world the same way. Its that kind of single minded belief that an individuals point of view is the only correct one that leads to a crap load of problems in other areas of the world. Its entirely possible that in the developers part of the world, what he did would not have raised even an eyebrow. Cultural differences etc can give one person a completely different view of right and wrong. That is why RULES!!!!! documented are so important.

If the terms of use for the repositories had said ANYTHING about this situation I would be right at the front of the queue calling for censure of this guy. But they don't, so I am willing to accept that this was the end result of a farked up situation with no malice intended, which is precisely what his reply in the thread says.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

That's why they have juries Bratag. A slice of population who have power over laws and what they think is right.

The "jury" on this has spoken.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Yep based entirely on their opinion of right and wrong. That's no way to run a world or forums. Without rules I am within my rights to do whatever I want and can use the defense "Well according to my moral point of view what I did was not wrong" and all I need to do is get enough people to agree with me and I can't be touched. Down that road my friend lays evil.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Seriously. You're really saying that when the rules say that something needs a certain number of votes, it's not clear that it doesn't mean a certain number of votes all from sockpuppet accounts controlled by one person? You don't think that's a bit obvious?

Firstly, it's not the only way he could; anyone can set up a repository. Take the Mozilla folks for example - they haven't pushed their various Firefox betas through the maemo.org process, because they haven't hosted them on maemo.org resources. That's fine, because then everyone knows where they stand and no-one is being misled.

There's no way of knowing that they were high quality, because the quality checking process was skipped. As has been pointed out in this thread already, previous releases of these packages have got an enthusiastic response from the community, and with that, volunteered testing that has got them through the process in a perfectly reasonable amount of time.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

That's no way to run a world? That's how justice is done in a majority of countries. The juror system is pretty much the best in the world. Do you understand it? It is the very basis of what IS right and wrong. Mankind makes those rules. You think the Aztecs thought their sacrifices were wrong? :D
That's why jury systems exist. That's why what is "right" and what is "wrong" is determined by the people themselves.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Socialism, Communism and maybe Islam is what come to my mind after reading all this .)

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

My view of the net result?

- one less developer for the platform
- better qa process adopted

I'm sorry that the developer left. I wish everyone criticizing the developer would release a game for the platform. And while they are at it, please review the source code of every single project in extras to see if there is any intentional or unintentionally malicious code in it.

Frank

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Yep - and as soon as you show me where this rule was written down I will happily agree with you. Until then you are basing all of this on YOUR point of view (along with some others) There are a number of people here that think that he deserves a second chance or even that he did nothing wrong at all. Are they wrong as well because YOU think that your point of view is the correct one?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

my 2 eurocents, from an italian point of view:

- shame on you sio2, not for what you did, but, man, how could you have thought that noone would have noticed??? we need more careful developers, honest or not, thats not so important. :) but be smarter, please!

- you can't call that "soccer"! that's not soccer! call it penalty workout if you want. whean i read soccer, i accept payng for testin (i've bought the n900 after all!), i accept being exploited (really, im not ironic neither moralist) but i do want real soccer 3d like PES or at least FIFA, holy ****!

EDIT: yes we do have euros in italy!

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Why ban him?

Simply display this message to anyone trying to install his program:

"This package runs script that can send all sensitive information on the device (passwords, contacts, etc.) to the developer. The developer has indicated that he believes that if he can do that, it is moral for him to do that. Are you sure you want to install this package?"

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Except that in no way has any bearing on what actually happened and is a gross overstatement of the worst kind of FUD

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

But with closed-source software being tested by the community, it could have happened, not that I agree that we should do anything further.

In all, I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness.

We all agree that the developer did something against the spirit of the community.
We've all had our chance to have a little moral outrage - and hopefully gotten it off of our chests.

We all know that Nokia does need to get it's Ovi store sorted out to provide some non-community review of commercial applications, because not everyone that wants to develop for us is going to want to give us their code to inspect.

Fortunately the developer didn't do anything malicious, and now we've seen that it can be done we'll be safer for next time.

He has apologized, and hopefully we've not scared him off completely, because we do need developers (both free and commercial) in order for this platform to thrive.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

If it turns out that he's not coming back, then this must be considered as a huge step backwards for the platform's future success.

I'm considering of making a petition thread for Sio2 to come back - considering how much work he's put on this project, and of his own will too (unlike the other companies with strong Nokia-relations).

It would be really sad if a small joke like this would decide Maemo's and Sio2's short-term future.

Seriously people, get over it! If you don't want his work, then you can pass - but don't force everyone to do the same. Despite of what he's done, I still think his games should be welcomed to Extras as a place-holder until Ovi Store will be ready (which should be very soon, as PR1.1.1 enables paid apps).

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Come one, come all... let's all flog it once more...

http://archive.perfectduluthday.com/...dead-horse.gif

Seriously, let's start to wrap this up.

Make your final argument; think carefully of what you're trying to achieve and how it figures in to the community's interest at large.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Agreed.

As hard as it is to swallow, the overall best reaction instead of exploiting is to fight HARD for system and process improvement. If everyone went undercover through exploits, then the systemic issues don't get the proper attention/fixes and ultimately your system will fail.

That said, I will give the developer credit for his apology and willingness to work within the infrastructure going forward.

EDIT: I typed the last part too soon, sorry.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Uh, didn't he say he shouldn't be blamed and wouldn't develop for the N900 any more?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

After reading a little over 70% of the posts (yes, I had no patience to read all:)), only have two things to say:

1:
Dear sio2interactive, I really was very upset with what you did, but I accept the apology and I hope that you continue with us (I believe that everyone should have a second chance). I think we all have learned something from all that was said here in all these posts.

2:
Our platform at the moment needs all good soul willing to support it, either with free software or paid. I still believe blindly in the ability of this community and Maemo5 and wish you keep believing in them as well and from now on, through the right way, continue with us.

ps: Sorry for my English, I speak only Portuguese natively. I hope everyone understood me.

Marcelo Chaves

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Ultimately and unfortuntely IMO, yes.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Bingo!

The issue isn't that our system is broken. If he had followed the procedure and his code was good, his games would have been promoted.

The fact that Nokia's OVI store is broken also doesn't justify circumventing our system.

Our system was designed by, and based on, the good faith of the community.This good faith is extended equally to each member of the community until cause has been given to revoke it individually.

Cause to revoke the communities good faith in this individual should be based on the fact that he registered 10 different member names in order to receive 10 times the good faith you or I receive.

The fact that he produces excellent 3D games or that he exposed a weakness that needs to be addressed is irrelevant.
In this case the end does not justify the means.

What happens now? We move on. The future status of this individual with regard to this community lies with the Community Council and not with a bunch of yahoos like us throwing stones.

(Although I do enjoy a good public stoning. You should get there early before all the decent sized rocks are gone. :) )

We should also realize that this exploit of the communities faith was simply multiple log ons and take steps to prevent it in the future.