Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Good article. I have two questions:
1. When will Nokia replace the current CEO
2. Will it be already too late?

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Dude! Nokia only JUST got him! They're still paying just the interest on that loan! I suspect that if it isn't too late, that window is very, very rapidly closing. I could imagine how it might turn around very quickly, but it's highly unlikely that business executives, who are getting paid handsomely in any circumstance, are going to be willing to do anything that might make them look foolish or admit they had been wrong, even when they're finally doing the right things now. What I'm saying is, despite all this talk about how they're a Finnish company and how the Finns are very humble and their corporate culture is so very different--when it comes down to it, they operate just like every other company in the world. I dare them to be different and prove me wrong but, disappointingly, I'm sure I won't be.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

ad 1) Not before Microsoft replaces Ballmer (not one game changing innovation from this company, just playing catch up over the last years, but doing this still better than Nokia nonetheless)
ad 2) Probably, for both companies

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

re 1: I give Ballmer more slack because at least he keeps MS stable and profitable.

Elop on the other hand was brought in to turn around Nokia's fortunes. And, well, he singlehandedly destroyed 40% of Nokia's value within the last 5 months. Good job, indeed.

That's, by the way, cBeam's "oh s**t" moment for Elop.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

we are all waiting for nokia
and
they
are
a joke.
msgend

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Well, first of all, Qt is anything but new. It's an existing, cross platform... platform... developed by Qt Software / Trolltech.There's no challenges in cross platform that Qt hasn't already lived with since the dawn of the IT era (1994, to be more precise). They were bought up by Nokia 2008/2009 and since then Qt has been adapted by Nokia. Till just now. We do know where they're going now, though - Nokia is dividing it up; "Nokia said it would sell the commercial licensing business of Qt to Digia PLC on March 2011".

The Qt strategy was a good one. However, they pulled the plug before they even started to sell the idea to Symbian or multiplatform developers, so it never got tested in real life. I doubt that the Qt strategy would/could have done anything good about the inherited flaws in Symbian, but it would do very much for the applications on top of Symbian (and thus, MeeGo).

Second, there's a whole lot to be said about Sun/Java's implementation of "cross platform". That does not mean that everybody else would take the same route of cross platform not being cross platform at all.

The "Write once and run anywhere" strategy has made Windows the most used operating systems throughout time. Some applications from MS DOS will still work with Windows 7, applications will work across virtualbox on cell phones, servers, tablets, tabletPCs, netbooks, pretty much any computer made after the given software were created. Oh, and while Sun may have stumbled, Android is nothing but a virtualization motor made in a rip-off copy of Java. So, I think the whole Write once and run anywhere strategy can work very well, thank you vely mush.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

I don't think you understand what "write once, run anywhere" means. :P You appear to be confusing that with "backwards compatibility". The idea that Java was trying to promote was LITERALLY the idea of writing an application on any type of OS or architecture, then running that software on any other type of OS or architecture--even in its own era, even without hardware emulation. I dare you to show me a DOS program running on your N900 without a whole emulated BIOS with an emulated PC environment (like DOSbox, bochs, or VMware). Java CAN be made to run on your N900 using a far simpler vm that runs closer to the OS without the need to emulate a whole other architecture down to the BIOS and hardware.

You further neglected to notice that many older Windows apps can't actually run in newer Windows operating systems without some sort of emulated legacy support. i.e. newer apps take advantage of newer API/architectures, while older apps need to have specific legacy support in the newer Windows--which is why MANY apps written even for something as recent as Windows XP would NOT run in Windows Vista or Windows 7. Why do you think MANY companies refused to upgrade? They weren't being cheap--they were being compatible with the software they depend on.

I agree that "write once, run anywhere" is a great idea and a potentially successful way to operate--but as the two examples you gave (Sun with Java and Android with Dalvik) point out, there is more to success than simply that method alone. Support counted for a lot. Sun shunned many partners while Android welcomed everyone. Nokia has done far worse by shunning not only partners but also customers. To quote the movie Tropic Thunder, "You NEVER go full retahd."

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Also, incredibly... I can't believe this board is censoring a perfectly normal, long lived and not even a dirty English word. :P
http://www.merriam-webster.com/d%69c...y/re%74%61r%64

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

problem with strategy they killed symbian and they didnt test the water.

lets be honest HTC and samsung both have wp7 for a good time and their android siblings sell ALOT Better.
only reason the didnt test android too probably no one will buy wp7 version.


nokia dropping symbian for wp7 its like microsoft killing windows 7 for meego because android/iOS running the market.

regarless windows is a BAD OS, it have huge userbase that couldn't be ignore.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

I'm not expert on QT but yes it's been around for a long time. Where is this mature / evolved / pervasive and all expansive ecosystem that has changed and revolutionized the industry. They haven't. I mean is there even an QT Store? From what I can see they're still trying to get it to work on MeeGo, Symbian and etc. Sure components exist but while Apple is moving on to iOS 5 and daily adding to the app store, where's QT?

I don't doubt much work and technical problems were solved with QT, but the unfortunate fact is after all these years it's a non-factor and without a QT store / ecosystem (more than just being around years ago) they are for all intents and purposes brand new.

This is the problem with Nokia the past few years. They dabbled in QT, but never really committed. They dabbled in Maemo / MeeGo but never really committed. Now they finally committed to WP7. Bad choice? Too late? Maybe, but the problem is that while Nokia had great technology never utilized it. So I doesn't really matter how long it's been around. Coulda / shoulda only works for geeks. Every day customers want to see the reality not past glory and bragging rights. of who was first.

Wait, I thought this was around for years, since 1994. Oh, so they never used it. So what good is technology if it's never used. So you are basically saying though it existed it was never used so for all intents and purposes it was NEW to the industry because it was never really out there.

Just because you warmed up and sat on the bench doesn't mean you were in the game. You can't blame Elop for Nokia's failures. At least he's trying to get in the game by joining the WP team. Promises and fanciful wishing don't win games.

I subscribe to the KISS principle. QT, the one dev. platform to rule them all just was too complicated. With Symbian / MeeGo the big moving target, Nokia thought they'd succeed where Sun failed.

Years ago they had their chance. Too little too late now.

backward compatibility is not cross platform

Just because an old dos binary works in Windows 7 doesn't mean its cross platform. Look at what they had to do for XP to get XP based apps to work on Windows 7/ Vista. Show me the Dos application that runs on OSX and linux then have cross-platform.

Yes, Java but controlled without all of the problems spreading themselves out too across multiple VMs. I don't see an Android VM for iOS / Bada / WP7 / MeeGo.

Nice try but no. Still have yet to see a credible example that is successful.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Thus bringing us full-circle to the original post which is the "oh s**t moment". Again, I'm no QT expert so someone will correct me but according to Wikipedia QT 4.1 was released in 2005. 6 years ago. If after 6 years they are still "testing" the water, they need to see that the other ships have set sailed and they are still waiting to get out of the harbor.

We're talking pure execution not potential.

I use Windows 7 and frankly it works pretty good. Don't know WP7 though. Right or wrong at least they're doing something.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

There is no contest that Nokia's execution was piss-poor, at least since 2007.

That was the reason why they brought on a new CEO.

The new CEO managed to destroy an additional 40% of Nokia's market cap within the last 5 months.

He killed Symbian - a platform that increased sales quarter over quarter until the new CEO announced his new strategy, relegated Meego to hobby status, and undermined Qt because Qt is not allowed for Windows Phones.

We will never know if the Qt/Meego/Symbian strategy would have worked. We do see now that the transition from Symbian to WP does not work. We will see if the WP strategy will work.

If the WP strategy does not work, there very well might not be a Nokia as a relevant and independent concern anymore.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

He makes that statement in connection to describimg how Elop is in his view obsessed about Apple controlling the US. Where as the reality is that Asian manufacturers are currently selling most phone in the US.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

quod erat demonstrandum.

the simple fact you ignore is that although qt had been around for long, nokia only bought the technology in 2008. that's when they started exploring it for their cross-platform-stategy.

In reality, the strategy really started to become successful in 2010. The "app store" you ask for (and that shouldn't be there... app stores are evil) offers qt-applications for both symbian and maemo at the moment. Nokia even evaluates possibilities to bring qt to S40 devices. (I wouldn't see much benefit there, though: Why a cross platform tool when there's only one target platform left?)

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Qt would also make sense if you have only one platform. It is so easy to get results fast, that even I with no programming experience can write something in a few hours that really looks good and runs fast.
And Qt was used in quite a lot of projects before Nokia (e.g. Opera).

I would even have considered getting a WP7 device from Nokia, if it had had Qt...

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Exactly, 3 years is not a lot of time.

Why not? If its better than the current java tools...

Of course, nokia just wanted its own dev tools for its platform(s), c#/silverlight can also be used on all MS OSes.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Yep, have to agree on the advantages of Qt from a devs PoV. I was surprised at how fast and easy it is even without experience.

I'm in no way against having Qt on S40, don't get me wrong here. It's only that from the little information I read about the topic here and there, I was under the impression that Qt was too heavy for S40 and wouldn't perform well on those low end devices. Don't know, though, so no need to speculate. ;)

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

I think they will wait until Qt 5, which will bring more performance (qml scene graph, up to 2.5x faster) and modularization (QtGUI module will be much smaller, without the old QWidget stuff), before using it on s40 (if ever).

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Haha. Just being honest.

Fine. After 3 years I think the determination was that they were still too far away from where they needed to be to be competitive.

App stores are evil? Look not everyone follows TMO. We're talking about success in the market not a developer's toy.

Please direct me to this mature since 2010 marketplace, overflowing with apps for all manners of devices. With all due respect to all QT developers out there, most of the stuff I've seen while functional lack the fit an finish of apps you see in the App Store or the Android Market.

If QT has been successful since 2010, there must be millions of these QT apps being downloaded monthly if not weekly or maybe even daily. I'm sorry but I must have missed it. Would love to see it.

Yes, "one framework to rule them all." All who gaze upon it will fall to their keyboards and countless applications will flow forth from their fingertips, quickly covering the world and rendering all other app frameworks impotent and useless.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

But there are. There´s plenty of them at store.ovi.com, however they´re not labeled as "QT apps" because that´s just the programming behind the application :)

Just because you don´t see it on a daily basis doesn´t mean it isn´t there. Can you see all the plumbing in your house? Do you check every morning, by opening the hood, whether the motor is still in your car? Or do you just start the car and start driving?

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

First there are barely any apps on the OVI store to begin with much less the QT Apps. I'm not saying they don't exist or that it doesn't work I'm just saying that it's not a threat and without a significant number of hw platforms available there no reason to assume there would be mass adoption. You have to look at both the SW and HW together. Look, I'm not saying QT sucks, I'm just saying that at the pace Nokia was moving there was no light at the end of the tunnel for the path they were on. They had to simplify and there was no way around that.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Barely any apps? Are you judging that from the catalog for your N900? Set your device to the N95, N97 or N8 and browse through, there´s quite a few things on there.

Yes there was a light at the end of the tunnel, now your just babbling.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Yup, I'm speaking of the N900. Since there are tons of apps QT Apps, and the N900 runs QT, then why aren't all of these great apps automagically available on the N900? Isn't that what QT is for?

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Not quite sure. Never checked out the Ovi store.
My guess is that all functions (e.g. communication with sensors, audio output, ...) are not quite implemented. There's no Qt interface for some. So some code is still Symbian-native and must be ported to Maemo.
I am not sure how far Nokia would've gone with platform-independency, but at least in theory it would be possible to provide all interfaces a program needs through Qt.

Still you would need to compile your code twice, for Symbian and Maemo (Linux). But, in theory, that's the only effort then for the programmer.

So it might very well be that those Ovi-Store apps are just compiled for Symbian.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

i blame the SDK. the only way to compile / test your Qt apps for Maemo 5 is the Nokia Qt SDK under Linux. most developers probably just don't bother installing yet another dev environment, especially for a market as small as maemo 5. they don't see the Maemo 5 target in their Windows Qt Creator, so they don't care.

i'm pretty sure that technically most of the N97 etc. apps which were written in Qt would compile & run just fine on the N900, but it's too much effort and too little gain for most devs.

it's still nokia's fault of course, for splitting up those parts of the SDK.

(btw, QT is quicktime, Qt is the C++ Framework we're talking about :) )

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

How would this be different for MeeGo?

Again, I have the same question for the above.

Got it. Thanks for the correction. Thanks for your (and loehner's) information filled post which is a stark contrast to mine.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

well, hopefully they won't make the same mistake twice and release a multi-platform SDK which is capable of compiling / testing for all Qt platforms.

they _will_ release a new SDK for Harmattan, we'll know more then.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Strangely I can see it in QtCreator under Windows XP.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

thanks, that's great! i haven't updated my Windows VM in a while, and version 1.1 of the SDK came out about a month ago.

good to know they finally got around to fix that :)

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Will the SDK for Harmattan be different than for MeeGo?

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

i'd imagine nokia will combine them. but since the next device is going to be harmattan, and any later meego device by nokia is pure speculation at this point, no one can say for sure.
mind you, i'm talking about the official nokia sdk here, which targets their devices.

for meego proper (as in, the underlying generic platform) the sdk is already available.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

I just wonder Harmattan will have the same problems that Maemo ran into that developers will feel like it's just worth the effort even though the app probably already works.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Dude, your world is warped into some strange Apple concepts. There's no such a thing as a HTML store either. HTML must be a failure, then.

From the wiki:
"Controversy erupted around 1998 when it became clear that KDE’s KDE Software Compilation was going to become one of the leading desktop environments for Linux. As it was based on Qt, many people in the free software movement worried that an essential piece of one of their major operating systems would be proprietary."

KDE, based on Qt. I'd say KDE is fairly matured, evolved, pervasive and expansive by now.

Dude, you are way off track here. Just because you don't know what Qt is, doesn't mean that it isn't used. Yes, it's been around for years, and it's been used, and the creators of it has been making money. So, exactly what part about not being bought by Nokia at the time did you not get, since you have a problem understanding why Nokia didn't base their strategy around it until recently?

Qt isn't new to the industry, it's new to YOU. It was successful enough that I knew about it as far back as 1996. But I guess that can't possibly count, eh? This is just so much about what you don't see so it can't possibly be a success.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Reread the post a central marketplace for Qt apps is just one example of the maturity of the ecosystem. You disagree, that's fine. My point still remains if Qt is that mature and works as advertised why doesn't the N900 have the same number of wonderful Qt apps as the N8 and etc. Such a shame, isn't it?

Yes, it is being used but it's still moving too slowly to be competitive (reread myposts). Yes, Nokia based their strategy around it. They had their reasons and the problem with this strategy is that it was confusing. At some point a developer could develop for Symbian, Qt and then Maemo (now MeeGo). A waste of time for developers and for Nokia, having to spread their time to essentially support 3 dev environments. Sure Qt was the recommended platform but not everyone moved to it.

Haha. Back in the days of Windows 3.1 / 95 and having to use Winsock to log on to the internet via modem. If after 15 years it hasn't gotten momentum as a dev platform then maybe it's time to call it, don't you think?

Why don't you answer my question. Why isn't the N900 flooded with numerous quality Qt apps if it is as good and easy to use as it claims and they already exist for Symbian?

It's the other way around. The emperor has no clothes and you choose not to see it.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Disagreeing is okay, I am sure we'll still disagree after I clear up your errors.

Why haven't the Qt synergy given the N900 as many Qt applications as the N8 had?

1) Because there is no Qt synergy effect between an OS based on Qt and an OS not based on Qt. Maemo 5 is GTK based.

2) Because there's no Qt synergy effect when the Qt synergy strategy doesn't exist yet. It wasn't until MeeGo was announced, that they had a Qt synergy strategy. The first device that would have a real Qt strategy effect is the N9, N950, or whatever it'll be called.

3) Even with a full blown, successful Qt synergy effect, a platform with a few hundred thousand users will never get as many Qt applications as the mother platform with tens or hundreds of millions of users. That would require every single Qt application made for the bigger platform to be ported.

4) Qt was being backported to the N900 because they needed a development platform compatible with MeeGo. Being backported meant there is problems with distribution, resource allocation, etc. Not to mention the delay. So the only Qt synergy effect possible were only possible for a handful months, to a single non-Symbian device, before Nokia announced they gave up on Qt as the common building brick. That means the window was very limited, and the target audience very small.

Please.

You do realize that Microsoft support a far bigger number of environments/languages on Windows Phone 7 - a OS that is marginal compared to Symbian?

Really. You cover up your lack of knowledge and understanding with naked king anecdotes?

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

But wait I thought this was around since 1995? So they finally have the strategy now and it was just getting ready for 16 years? This is the the point of the OP that even after all this time the previous strategies weren't working and even the new strategy would take too much time to implement. As you said, the current strategy didn't exist until MeeGo and wouldn't be ready for a while since MeeGo itself won't be ready for a while.

This isn't a discussion about whether or not Qt exists or is a "good idea". Stick with the purpose of the thread.

And things would be different for MeeGo? My point is that the portability of Qt may not be as good or effortless as some would make it out to be.

They seem to be doing well doing that, much better than Nokia.

I call them like I see them.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Oh, for crying out loud. How many times does it have to be repeated? It didn't exist for Nokia until 2008/2009, and after that they had to adapt it to their platforms. There was a time, before Android, when Trolltech's Qt based concept Greenphone were giving developers bright eyes, and that was probably what caught the eye of Nokia as well.

No, part 3) in my explanation it wouldn't be different for a starter platform like MeeGo. You asked why there were not as many Qt applications for the N900 as there were for the N8. I answered in four parts. One of those parts says that a lesser (in percent market share) OS like MeeGo will always get a limited number of applications ported. That only shows that your goal of having as many Qt applications on such platform is completely unrealistic in any circumstance. The other three parts show that the very question is pointless since there has been no demand, no time and, I can't stress how important this is considering your question, no Qt based platform to port to.

So, basically, your argumentation is so fundamentally flawed that I don't know where to start. And NOTHING in this has to do with how good or bad the portability is, so I can't even find how the arguments connect.

Android and iOS doesn't have any such effect at ALL. Any effect at all would be a great help for MeeGo, because it would mean that there would be a lot of software that could be ported easily. It might even have a little positive effect for Symbian, because the MeeGo platform has a high percentage of developers. In addition to this, the Qt platform is easy to develop on, compared to what the Symbian developers are used to.

Point after point after point that says the Qt strategy was a good strategy. I understand that you want to negate that, but the want does not make up for being wrong. :(

You call 'them' kings. I don't even know who your 'them' is. This is just frustrating. I am sorry, but that you don't understand what Qt is or how it could have been of benefit Nokia, that you seem to mean the lack of success can't possibly have anything to do with it not BEING DISTRIBUTED YET, it makes me look like a fool indeed, for feeding you.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Windows Phone 7 is a new platform that is mostly incompatible with its (far far) distant relative Windows Mobile platform.

Without the backing of a well-established ecosystem of WM, WP7 is not remotely comparable to Symbian...yet.

Just for your information. Sorry to interrupt. You guys may now go on.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

"Qt isn't new to the industry, it's new to YOU. It was successful enough that I knew about it as far back as 1996"

Haha. Your quote, not mine. Your Qt quote is like saying Andorid has been around since 1992 because Android came from Java that came from Oak.

Great. Then stop saying it's been around since the mid 90's. The current iteration (which is all that's relevant) started around 2008 and given that the platforms themselves won't be ready until 2012 (MeeGo), there is no reason to think that any adaption to that platform would be ready until after that.

Um... that's what I've been saying, feel free to re-read my posts at your leisure. Technical merits aside, the problem that Elop faced was that given the lack of demand and readiness of the various platforms the direction they were heading toward, getting everything on QT was not a wise choice. It would have been a lot of work building up to nothing. So he decided to cut it because too many pieces are missing and would remain missing for a while.

And here's the fundamental flaw with the Qt paradigm. I don't see developers moving to platforms because they're easy to develop for. They move to it because they can make money.

I"m sure Qt is great but there are already tons of Symbian / linux (GTK) developers. Did there really need to be another easy to program for system? I think the reason Nokia decided to use Qt because they knew that Symbian was limited and so they needed a transitional / migration platform that allowed them to support other platforms that would take them into the future.

For a company that has never been good at software, trying to develop Symbian, QT, Harmattan and MeeGo at the same time was just too much.

Yes, what was I thinking. Qt is perfect and the solution to all of Nokia's problems.

So you're saying that Qt is finished for all platforms and is just waiting on some developer's hard drive but Elop decided not to distribute it? Nice.

Re: Elops oh s**t moment for Meego
 

Qt is here and there, getting adopted by more and more people, and evolving a lot on the way. It's not some "pervasive" invention like the transistor, the compiler or whatever.

That doesn't make any sense! "Qt store"??!!...

The most we could have perhaps was some kind of CPAN for Qt... Nah, forget it, that is just plain crazy, trying to compare Qt with something like a full "ecosystem" like iOS or whatever.

Hey maybe apt... Debian's repos. There is a "store", a very old and successful one that has a few Qt apps, will that do it for you? :p

Qt is working full steam on Symbian^3, Maemo 5 and even older Symbian phones. (not sure what version, but it includes 5800 and others). I don't know how many developers have already released Qt apps, but it's all there, ready to work. I wish I had one of these devices to give you more information, but unfortunately I only have a N800. This one is indeed only got Qt hacked into it.

Maemo started in late 2005, with the 770. It was always based on GTK. Nokia only bought Trolltech in early 2008, after N810 was already on the streets. Maemo 5 supports Qt, but it will only now become a central component, used in the system "core".

And more than that, while Qt was cool back in "all those many years" as you say, it changed a lot lately. The SDK was not so much cool and straight forward like it is today. And there was also important innovations like QML, etc. This is all new, and if it wasn't created specifically to offer competition to the other "ecosystems", this is the role it plays now.

So, for all effects in this debate, Qt is actually "new". The often mentioned tradition and adoption is more of a rhetoric thing. Qt development for mass mobile apps only really exists and is being tested right now, because of Nokia's relatively recent push.

...Is good technology waiting to be used.

Nokia's purchase and adoption of Qt is recent, and so are many current Qt features. So, yes, to all effects it's new. (Starting to repeat myself, sorry)


So KISS my Qt!!! Qt is beautiful, Qt is life, Qt is love! Simple and powerful.

Multi-platform development is always complicated, that is the truth. If there were no problems, it would be the same platform. Qt does offer a great means to archieve that, but it's not just about that. And also, have in mind that we are talking multi-platform across mobile/desktop etc. But maybe it could turn out Qt only really grows for handelds, who knows! :P

You can use Qt and just Qt to make lots of cool apps, and target a single device if you want. Very simple, stupid. You are talking like Nokia was forcing you to always take care of numerous different platforms, that doens't make any sense. If you wish, there will be facilities, but you can really just enter Qt Creator, make your simples stuff there, load it in a few handsets, or just on Maemo5 for example, and be done with it.