Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

that, maybe?

EDIT: and he has a point.
but it would help to use the Quote & Reply link underneath the post one is refering too, indeed :mad:

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

mind telling us in how far NOKIA being an OEM solely for m@ke$$h!t is any better then being an OEM for Android devices or even both for Android devices and LostDOS Paralysed?
Android is free, as you pointed out yourself, thus it offers better margins or allows lower prices.

what makes m@ke$$h!t's LostDOS Paralysed better?

the applications are not free? that's certainly helping :mad:

they are as buggy as any crap from Redmont; after 15 yrs of enjoying that on their PCs, ppl can't wait to have THAT on their phones, that's for sure :mad:

as i pointed out to daperl, m@ke$$h!t pushes updates down your throat no matter what; your phone crashes and doesn't start up anymore? too bad, go to your provider & have them reflash it; lose all your data / photos / comm history in the process.
GREAT :mad:
EDIT (even better...): lose all the crapy apps & BUY them again ¦-)))))))))))

EDIT': your competitors can use OVI Maps for free; that definitely helps NOKIA. :(
sure @ least to kill Symbian faster :mad:

imagine, you just need to call 911 when m@ke$$h!t decides to push an upgrade down your throat. your GF dies from an haemorrhage after slipping on a icy patch because you couldn't call an ambulance...

you aren't Flop, you are Balmer :rolleyes:

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I don't know, but as a biologist I sure hope that they would leave the word alone. I actually have a proper use for the word. Now It has been raped almost as badly as the word "innovation".

EDIT: Currently working with microbial diversity in agroecosystems.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I hate homophobic humour. Also hate it when people use the word 'gay' as a negative adjective.

but www.Elop.org still makes me smile.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

LostDOS paralysed 6.x i had to use on a Samsung i780 (or was it 780i?) that a company i was working for pushed down the throats of its employees, did it, indeed.
can't say about anything more recent :D

the hardware was more then decent, have to admit... just the SW:eek:

bought a NOKIA 1200 after a few days & was one of the few employees who didn't regularly miss phone calls >¦-)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I think your main probles is you are a hateful person and simply need to have someone to hate, or you think it makes you look cool, a real tem member of the TMO hate Elop faction, probably both.

I will take it slooow. Nokia makes hardware. Microsoft makes OS. Both are making services, all the pieces needed for for an ecosystem. Now they join to make a joint services system, an ecosystem owned and run by both companies. Still, MS makes the OS and Nokia makes HW. This ecosystem is available for the entire mobile industry. This is fundamentally different than going android, because then you lose it all.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

the only thing you understand is BSoD, isn't it?
you probably even love it.

questions to you, again
i'll cut out any "fancy" stuff not to saturate your attention span.

1
m$ charges royalties, Google doesn't
why is m$ better then Google for NOKIA?
or, for that matter, for any other companies who all seem to desert m$ and flock around android. or even MeeGo, for that matter...
why is m$ better then Google for the customer?

2
the applications on Android are made by individuals and are building on a GNU/Linux kernel, which is proven to be very efficient for fixing issues (which tend to be less frequent); m$ is m$; poorly written sw, apps developed by ppl working w/ a 9 to 5 mentality aso. asf.
why would the m$ apps be better then the android apps?

3
we have seen last winter how good m$ is @ patching. some customer simply couldn't use their phones any more.
so simple
any questions?

4
OVI maps will be made available to NOKIA's competitors.
how does that help NOKIA?

if you can't answer those questions, that simply proves our point, namely that the partnership w/ m$ is bad for NOKIA.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

It's not a big change. Bing maps already used only Navteq data long before Elopcalypse and Nokia had partnenership on location based services with MS. Bing maps on WP7 will be now just rebranded to Nokia maps. On the other hand, it doesn't really help Nokia neither as nothing really changes.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

This just proves how bad M$ are at developing software as even with the same Navteq data as Nokia Maps Bing maps is nowhere near as good or as popular. Nobody would buy a WP7 device for Bing maps however Nokia Maps is a different proposition.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Near as popular as? In the US, Ovi/Navteq maps are not even a factor here. Google Maps trumps them all in use here.

Globally, more than likely a different scenario. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with bad/good. It's (Bing Maps) just not popular.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Popular outside of the US then, Google maps may trump them all in the US but that's because it's more popular not a better maps app? In your Europe at least Nokia Maps is the one to beat on a moible device.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Just to clarify, Nokia makes both hardware and software. Symbian, Maemo and hopefully it continues down the line, Meego, are all Nokia made operating systems. And Symbian kills WP7 today even if it lacks UI candy. Just compare the sales. Why in the hell would you dump billions of users who are familiar with Symbian for an OS that loses sales by the day?

Also, you can google how many of those poor organisms (companies) survived in Microsoft's ecosystem.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I would not be so sure about that. By now Google maps is propably more popular in Europe (Android + iOS) than Ovi Maps. Bing maps obviously almost no users.

It's going to be interesting to see how the two biggest losers in digital services are somehow supposed to create good services together. Altough, I don't take it seriously that Nokia will have important role on WP7 services. It's just the usual hopeful thinking of a new Microsoft partner. They will get crushed in the partnership and relegated into a serf role by Redmond. Just like all previous MS partners (IBM, Dell, Altair, Apple etc).

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I'm not the type to believe it because somebody said so... so why is it so great?

I've used it. Found it lacking. Offline a factor? Google Maps 5.7 has that on Android. And on the N900, it still needed "some" access. So that was just a poor implementation.

Again. You're arguing "popular", which is opinion and not really bringing too many facts to the table. It suits your needs, uses. But without a lot of features on Maemo (yet) and with it on Symbian mostly... sure, Europe and Asia wills ay it's the most popular.

But as far as why, it's mainly because it's on more phones in those territories. I personally (my opinion) do not favor Nokia's Mapping software since it seems dated, sometimes sluggish, and on my N900, it wouldn't work in downtown Pittsburgh, Toronto, or Mexico City. Metro gave it hell. I didn't get it a chance whilst in Europe last time - didn't need the frustration.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

To be fair, microsoft charges royalties to android manufacturers (or at least tries to).
And Nokia is not really the best company at the "I have the biggest number of cores/MHz/pixel/screen inches" game.. So they shouldn't (and won't as you may have seen) compete with other android manufacturers, especially because all other companies seem to flock around android.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I am ignoring Nokia Maps on the N900 as that doesn't represent what is available on a Symbian OS device, on these devices it seems the mapping software to beat. Google maps as in the past needed an internet connection and that's Ok in a built up area, with a good data plan, but as soon as you losse your interent connection you are, literally, lost. 5.7 may resolve that issue but we were discussing Bing not Google maps anyway?

I have not tried it myself but I have not heard anybody saying it is better than Maps hence I assume why M$ want it on their devices anyway.

Edit

Can Bing/google maps do all this?

http://dailymobile.se/2011/07/08/nok...3-08-released/

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Maybe I'm misinformed but I'm under the impression that a lot of GPS devices (Garmin, Magellan to name a few) use Navteq (owned by Nokia) maps.. so I wouldn't consider it irrelevant.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I don't see any critical services microsoft provides to the wp7 ecosystem.
Instead of bing search nokia could use google search and the xbox stuff is not really that important. Maybe that cloud stuff could be interesting for some. IMO the only service every phone needs is a proper maps application. Nokia does not really need MS for an "ecosystem".

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I'm not too familiar with an iPhone myself, given the hefty-price for which they are sold where I live, as well common knowledge that they are tightly-locked devices, but here's the thing:

Anybody here into marketing? Have you guys ever heard of an United States-based company called... Harley Davidson?

To put it in simply, their motorcycles are crap, too heavy, make low power for their displacement, leak oil, vibrate too much, can't turn a bend. Some compare those bikes to a huge chromed dildo. So, why do people buy them?

Short answer: Marketing.

HD's marketing is said to be among the best there is, making their selling-point and product not the bike itself, but the idea of a lifestyle of unruly freedom and adventure, which the bike simply act as a physical support for the ideal construction. HD doesn't sell bikes, it sells the travesty of a lifestyle, along with all the crap at their boutiques.

Ok, so, where am I getting at? Apple.

I've read time and again that apple's main revoluctionary accomplishment is creating products that not only are functional, but that also display something about the personality and lifestyle of those who own them (please excuse the writer, he's off to the john to puke... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..ok done). I'm not too interested in watching commercials and other marketing material, but from I can gather, it seems that Apple has been using to great effect that "trendy, cool yuppie" image their products were made to project.

People often claim that apple created a product that revoluctionised the market... I'd say that they simply went with the right marketing, as well as had a decent business plan, in the iTunes store.

Those ain't great ideas, I'd say. They were just... Marketed right. So, honestly, I don't think Apple did anything great, other than hired the right Marketing team. Their main selling point surely ain't the device.

As for nokia, they could have done the same: they could have build on the idea that where other devices lock you down, theirs are open from day one, allowing you to build and modify it to one's heart's content. I could imagine a generic Smartphone-like gadget, with a generic interface resembling that of the iPhone, along with a huge lock going through it, showing a user having trouble moving the interface with the huge lock going through the screen...

And a Nokia phone, lock-free, along with a user rooting it through xterm or something more accessible... That would be a half-decent ad, and that just came from the top of my head.

...instead, we have the burning platform suicide note. Great marketing, way to go.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I'm talking about handsets, thus my usage of the terms Google Maps, Bing Maps and Nokia/Navteq maps and my clear usage of the N900 and other handsets in my references.

Simply stated, if we want to discuss the entire GPS situation surrounding devices, that's a discussion that I'm personally not prepared for because it deviates from the prior discussion as I saw it and effectively needs to also be set up properly. And I don't think that Bing nor Google even are a factor there.

I personally don't think that was the intent of your statement; I just had to clarify my statements it seems.

With that said; Google Maps has (as of the last update) offline capabilities. Bing does not. Bing can set a contact as a destination; as can Google Maps (I may be corrected on this one - I have a lot of addresses with my Google contacts, I've simply stated how I wanted to go to Mr. X, and it plotted my course from where I was located). Symbian Maps, still have to say for all of their niceness in the software, I found it clunky. But that's my stance on the whole OS.

Both have tons of places they need improvement (Google, Bing). Bing Maps so far would easily be considered the weakest of the bunch. I rarely use it on my WP7 phone. Found it quick on lock, slow on search.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Nokia has the ecosystem, or shall I say had it:

MeeGo + Symbian + s40 + Qt + Ovi Services (store, maps, mail, etc)

Nokia's base is much higher than Microsoft's. Plus they already have two market disrupting devices that can be launched, N9 and N950 (WP7 is not ready nor disruptive, it's a common failure among Android, iOS, Symbian, MeeGo). What the hell happened with the management in Nokia?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Nokia bought Symbian in 2008. They open sourced it, a prime example of good closed source that didn't go anywhere as open source. Then they closed it and literally gave it away to accenture. Today accenture is in charge of maintenance and development, and things are actually happening again. IMO Symbian is still the best, and my E6 is the best device, but Symbian OS - the longer you can push Nokia software engineers and Nokia protocol away from it, the better it becomes. Why is it that Opera makes top notch browser for the E6 and Nokia still, after all these years, makes something I would call early alpha? The quality of software is directly related to the quality of the software engineers and architects.

Maemo has always been just a toy for Nokia, never meant to be anything else, and to be fair, Maemo is the brainchild of one single guy, and he is not at Nokia anymore. Harmattan looks beautiful though, so there has to be some talent there. MeeGo is, well, soaked in mud, maybe in 10 years time. MeeGo is starting to be the final proof that pure open source simply will not work in real life. The Summer release for instance, someone and everyone forgot that the OS needs a swap partition to work properly. I understand why Nokia has left MeeGo, it is a dead end. Maemo on the other hand, has a potential future, and the reason is that it was architected from the start by a top guy who made it the way he wanted.

Regarding Symbian, the problem is not that it isn't a good OS, the problem is that it's too difficult to work with, it takes too long time and cost too much to develop. Maybe they will fix it at accenture, I sure hope so, but objectively and honestly I think they would be much better off continuing with Maemo instead (NOT MeeGo). It sure as hell will be interesting to see how all this unfolds.

WP is for high end. Symbian is way too expensive and takes too long time. MeeGo is a dead end road. Neither MeeGo or Symbian is able to make Nokia compete at the top end. Maemo could compete, no problems, but the former CEO (as in NOT Elop) "killed" Mameo so they could go further with MeeGo instead. Elop has killed MeeGo, but as we all know, Maemo isn't really all that dead after all, far from it. And things are getting more confusing:
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...10_for_Sym.php
Meaning, things developed for the N9 could run on any Symbian device. :D

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

The problem is is that it took too long for all of that to come together. Personally, I blame it on Symbian ruling the roost for too long and not being flexible to change. By the time they realized that they needed to, it was almost too late.

That being said, Elop's reaction was too far the other direction. Yes, Symbian probably needed to be taken down a rung or two, but Elop's reaction was to take it out to the back and put one in the head. Given that it is most of Nokia's business right now (and probably will remain so even when Nokia releases a Windows Phone), it was plain stupid.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Linus Torvalds would have a bone to pick with that.

Also, I'd argue that MeeGo isn't any more "pure open source" than Android. The only difference is that we get to see how the sausage gets made, which isn't always pretty.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

And Symbian is steaming forward in North America. Soon they will pass RIM and become number three after iOS and Android :D
http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os...-201006-201106

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

That should read: we get to see how the sausage doesn't get made.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Arguing against open source using a mostly closed-source example won't take you very far, you know...

The N900 could have something much bigger than it is if only 100% of it's software and drivers were available. Suuure, some other evil small-time asian company could come around and put the whole suite into a cheap device and sell nokia's hard work around their market for little to no cost...

Oh, but then Maemo would spread around like wild-fire, there would be like a frakkload of "ApPs" floating around, enough to truly call it a plague. You know, Maemo'd probably be everywhere, and an, what's the name of that thing again... Oh! ecosystem would like blossom out of it.

Dude, seriously, how could that hurt someone? In fact, there's even a certain "Big Two" company that has done something very similar...

So, I'm trying hard to see open-source not working... All I'm seeing is a short-sighted company.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Maemo isn't open source software compliant neither as the source code of the OS is not (fully) available.

if you wanna see something really ugly (and monstrously inefficient) look @ KDE4's development since openSUSE 11.0 tried to enact it.
a grotesque farce.
'nough said...

we already had an ugly discussion along what open source is or isn't and why (not) it is a good business model on the EPIC N9 anticipation thread.
the ugliness revolved around the question whether (service) companies that make (some) money around open source are making that money FROM open source or from SERVICE around o.s. or from PROPRIETARY software that runs on o.s.

to focus on the mobile phone market:

Google isn't making money from o.s.; they make the money from ads. the more mobile phones their ads display on, the more money they make; thus android is free; it is probably the least o.s. as Google has started including PROPRIETARY features in the kernel that the Linux Foundation rejected.

NOKIA... didn't make money at all with Maemo, so the whole point is moot.
@ least Maemo was closer to the o.s. model in that the kernel is open & can be altered (power kernel aso.)

Intel is obviously not making money from o.s.
Asus, Acer, Lenovo (?) and other net top manufacturer including Intel CPUs are the hope for Intel to get money out of this.
considering that the Linux Foundation has the stewardship over MeeGo pretty much guarantees its openness...

==> thus your argument is not sound

if you want to go & hunt down your meat yourself, be our guest
that should keep you busy for a while ¦-)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

More has gotten done for Maemo through open source than the total effort of Nokia.

With Meego, I think the expectations of most (including Nokia) was out of line with the goals of those who are making Meego. It follows in the footsteps of the cognitive dissonance that Nokia has suffered from for years.

Considering that I wasn't talking about Maemo, all of this is beside the point. As others have said, Meego != Maemo.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

your point being?
only about a hundred posts ago you were the one advocating that Symbian had to go down the drain to make room for m$ crap...
changed your mind?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

they wouldn't even have had to release the whole source code.
several companies (LG among others...) nearly begged NOK to partner on Maemo... :confused: :mad:

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Well, we can, for the sake of argument, move over to desktop OS. MS is closed, administered by idiots (Elop kind of idiots), Windows is made by less intelligent beings with no clue how to make really GOOD software - and so on. Guess what MS rules the desktop. What about Linux. There are as many Linux distros as there are Linux dudes, and they are equally useless compared to Windows. Yes, you can browse the web with Linux, and you can read your e-mail, but it stops there. If browsing the web and reading e-mails is all you need, a trouble free tablet is a better choice, and I have at least 99% of the entire population with me on this.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

and what is MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan?
more open source then MeeGo i take it?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Doubtful. There's closed source modules (binary blobs) in the Linux kernel.

Glad you said MeeGo. Maemo isn't all that fully open. For instance, try getting the source for the Swipe UI. Won't happen.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

i suspect you have anywhere between 10 and 20% of the population AGAINST you.
those ppl who are tired of having to pay for the m$ crap when they buy a PC or laptop even though the 1st thing they do when they get it home is installing GNU/Linux on it.

EDIT: but to pick up on your point; yes, small laptots or tablets that run MeeGo would definitely be a thorn in m$'s big toe ¦-)))))))

already explained that @ length
m@ke$$h!t only got a shot @ the PC market because IBM didn't have an OS ready for the PC (XT, AT, aso...). so, 'til they would have OS/2 ready, they thought they'd use m$ for a while.
maybe they didn't even think about making an OS of their own for PCs (...) 'til the whole industry was making them.
and then, obviously, it was too late.

for over 15 years, well into the 90s, Novell and IBM were dominating the network (management) market.
M$-NET was nothing but a rework of NetBIOS and was dwarfed by competitors solutions well into the 21st century.
long story, short point; again, m$ took ages to copy or to hire out ppl to do stuff others had been doing for ages.

as system & network admins are lazy (like everybody) about ten yrs ago they ended up using the features THEY HAD TO PAY FOR ANYWAY and that came with the servers and workstations and thus m$ became a standard.
this has nothing to do w/ the quality of their products.

the lamentable story of LostDOS immobilized / paralysed is simply the continuation of that;


most likely, they'd also like NOKIA to fix the SW for them ¦-))))))))))))))))))))))

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I wasn't aware of that one, this sure makes the current situation look even worst.

Sure, we can't comment on the specifics of the deal, but still... Nokia really looks like as though playing its cards against itself...

I'd say it's a market thing. Selling the best product for the lowest possible price is often a sugar-coated way of saying "Selling the worst possible sh*t for the highest possible price". As long as the market isn't rejecting it, why bother innovating and competing against oneself? Keep the fecal matter flowing, the cash coming, and everybody will be happy, right? Not that there aren't limits with that, as Vista managed to prove.

The thing is that, while M$ does produce OSs, their greatest selling point is the "ecosystem" around the thing, which carries a lot of appealing software, to the masses, at least. In the server area you don't get the same results, for instance, and it's the same for audio and graphic manipulation.

In the end we get a chicken and egg thing... Linux is safer, far more stable, and well, free... Why doesn't it take off? Simple, it might be tough running Crysys 2, Dragon Age, whatnot in it.

On a sidenote... Really, Windoze might not be open-source, but on the consumer market, it's nearly free. I've honestly only seem people paying for XP and Vista on laptops, and that's because they'll pay for it whether they like it or not. On desktops, in 11/10 cases you have a pirated windows copy.

M$ knows this, and it's part of its strategy. Linux is free, but so is Windows, in the consumer market (the office and corporate markets are entirely different animals). No wonder this thing has such market penetration...

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Will be fun to read this thread in a year or so...

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

who will pay for the Maemo.org infrastructure in a year?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Me. ..........

EDIT: ment Ms :)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

MeeGo must go down the drain. Symbian will never be developed fast enough for high end devices to compete with twin core 1.5 GHz android slabs, WP will. Therefore a change of direction is needed, and has been effectuated.

What we have is:
WP + Nokia = cool ecosystem, cool devices, cool OS for high end, future proof.
Symbian + Nokia = cool OS subcontracted to accenture, cool devices. Uncertain future, but as long as there is demand and WP isn't pushed down to lower end...
Harmattan = question mark, but will provide synergy with Symbian.
S40 = Future proof, cheap devices, web apps, next billion and so on.

My point is this: WP is high end and it will take several years before WP is pushed down to mid end (as stated by Elop). Therefore, nothing is better for Nokia right now, than Symbian doing well. I'm happy, my E6 is happy.