Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

darn! who blew out the candle again ?!? :confused:

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

You're partly answering yourself with that. I think there's plenty of developers in our community deserving a device, who didn't get one (there was only a limited number of them).

But the big outcry on this topic seems to be about two developers. If we, as a community, feel like they should get a device, it's really not a big amount of money each of us would need to put in a pool together to get them one.

I'm ready to donate (again) if such a pool was made.

I just feel this kind of bickering against the council achieves nothing, and hurts on their real tasks ahead.

We can concentrate on the goals or the procedures. I say let the politiciancs worry about the procedures, and we should aim towards the goal that we want. If it's a device to these two, we can do it by small donations from each member.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

That is the goal I had walking into Council. I'm walking a line right now between presenting enough information to make the community happy without enforcing 100% openness that would cause progress to stop on anything for fear of having anything said twisted and thrown against them later.

Again, understand two things:

• No Council member was allowed to vote on/for themselves.
• The idea that Estel was not participating was a misinterpretation by one Council member.

It wasn't a plot or plan where a choice was "changed", or where someone had input where others did not. You're still holding to this like it was a plot, while I can assure you it was not. One member of Council, possibly two, had this misunderstanding. (One has not weighed in as he's on holiday this week.) But the overall issue is still there, regardless of if it was 3 of 5 or 4 of 5 running.

And I do think your idea of pulling in past Council in such times is a great idea. There have been several good ideas, which I will be confirming in the next meeting as an amendment to the wiki to clarify and codify this into place for future Council.

I also may have another idea, which I need to confer with Council on before I speak on it publicly.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I do not think it was a plot. I think that no Council member should be voting if they're capable of being rewarded. It makes things look bad even when it's not. It's the appearance that they were able to influence the vote to benefit themselves, that's the problem.

That's my point. That's a perceived conflict of interest.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Jeez.

I'm off again

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Either way it's valuable information and moving in the right direction.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

why would you be afraid of telling the truth?
like i posted before, no matter what you post

• some will deny or question it
• others (or the same) will twist it...

if you posted what you faithfully believe to be true, it shouldn't matter.

then again
if NOKIA files bankruptcy in 2013, it won't really matter anymore what the truth may have been.

on the other hand, if there is another CA and of course CC in spring / summer 2013, we will hopefully be able to look back on this thread and... :)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

That was the point of us ( people who questioned) all the time, though after some time the other question was — a reaction and the way we got answers. E.g. personal attacks, confusions, not all info from some of the councils.

And if ordinary member act like that, he has no excuse, but still it's that person behavior, while for any one from council it would be connected to all council.

And i still don't think Estel deserve to continue with the way he acts. For example he calls me loser and says "we don't give a f#" to me on IRC, as well as calling me names. And he explains that it's slovacian temper to talk like that and it's the people who overreact. But than again when you see the way he talks to people he sees as authority in a totally different tone. I know that kind of people and i think everyone does.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Small offtopic, but couldn't help myself. First of all, slavic temper, not slovacian - and as I'm the same nationality as Estel, I must say that I strongly disagree that it's a common trait among us :P

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Dito. I worked with developers from .PL, .SK, .CZ, .RU etc. but this seems a special case...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I'm russian btw myself, and i maybe was rude and personal here, but i think it's just it got to the point you can't stand anymore, but still i think i didn't get any closer to him.

As well i was asked to post the link to the slavic thing on IRC, and though i posted the same log before, i would agree it would be more objective to do it, so here is the link again — http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23mae...06-26T21:40:10

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

@ZogG let it go mate.

Estel is Estel and he wont change by any means. It's partly a mentality issue as in deffrent part of the world, defferent upbringing, social layers etc. The problem being Estel hiding behind this and excusing his behavor by difference of cultures (that's just being one short of a set of balls).
He could choose to take another approach where he don't insult, demean etc. the reciever. He wants to communicate something and he has the responsibility to communicate clearly without being demeaning if he wants to be taken seriously and be respected when responded to.
He obviously wants to be as he is (demeaning, condescending, aggressive) towards people whenever he disagrees or just doesn't understands why other people has a different opinion.
He's very narrow minded and intolerant and acts childish and without any empathy.
I could argument all day long about that but it wont change Estel one bit and he's behavior will proceed cause he can't se himself objectively or wont.
I've seen a few people apologize in this thread for there behavior but Estel, being to proud, lying to himself or what ever reason he has not.
He's conducting himself poorly and will continue that when he dissagrees.
I would just ignore him if you're not ready to get into a bashing from him when ever he disagrees.
It must work for him here as in the real life to act that way, not very sensible imo.
As stated before, then there's always karma wich exists wether you believe or not and influence your life wehther you believe it or not. That's the beauty with the laws of nature they work no matter what people believes.

Regards Dousan...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Sometimes you learn the most about human nature when you watch children. The other day i saw 2 kids playing and the stronger one grabbed a toy from his younger sibblings by force and he was told not to do so by the adults.

As he realized his mistake, i can see the conflict that played out in his mind: he grabbed hold onto the toy as he wanted it for himself, yet his guilt betrayed him as it showed in his face and behavior.

In the case here on tmo, i saw a big (and rather distasteful) defensive move when someone called foul. I didn't think it was necessary if said person was confident that he truly deserved it by merit.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

n9 is almost free now. Why not just buy another device?

and stop using thread space?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

The reverse can also be argued; why not preserve their dignity and community's trust and goodwill by forfeiting their free n9. It's almost free anyway.

Obviously people value things differently and they have different priorities.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23mae...06-26T21:54:36

Estel_ especially, e-yes, who praised Community and Council in his submissions, yet, after losing, he posted one-liner about how he hate Council and Community. Hah!

PRAISED? WHEN? WHERE?

And I only said "Damn you, councils", AFAIR. Nothing about community.

My submission: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ne/005465.html

@estel, are you liar?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

And yes, I believe that working project (if it's really almost/halt working) is better than "theoretically hypothetical possible "concepts"".

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ne/005473.html

So. What is actually rule?
Become a council -> Profit ?!?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

True. they could. no doubt. But the same goes to most people posting in this thread :D

conflict of interest IN ALL POSTS! so if that is the case. No one here have any dignity left, execpt you ysss...since you just arrived. But what is you hidden agenda for posting in this thread.

Plz freeze everyone. You all have your own hidden agenda here!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Many Harmattan developers need ideally 2 devices to properly develop their softwares, because :
- the developer has the right to use one device (bought with own money) as an user/test device, and keep other device (won in a device program) exclusively to develop;
- many low-level hacks can result in reflashing the device;
- it is useful to have 2 or more devices with different configurations, like PR1.1/1.2/1.3, open mode kernel x inception, etc, so the developer can reproduce the user base diversity to better fix reported bugs;
- a N950 is required to have 100% N950 compatible software for some features (NITDroid, etc).

By the way, I have donated money to eyes to buy his N9 to develop NITDroid. Even a friend of mine who isn't a N9 user has donated.

Why do you insist to repeat this argument so I need to reply again ?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Way to not read the post bro. To pick a fight you have to be MORE inflammatory. Try again.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

PAGGER!

This is like bairns fighting over Panini stickers. Grow up the lot of you. Nobody ever gets the silver-foiled Kevin Keegan sticker.

Infact ... a crumpled Willie Miller at best, found at the bottom of your satchel.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Do you really need an answer ?

Ok, I'll do it. MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan is an OS and needs to run on a hardware (Nokia N9 or N950). If the device (N9/N950) has the option of multibooting Android 2.3/4.0, this feature will :
- attract more users who sometimes really needs some Android softwares not available on Harmattan (Netflix, etc), so buying a N9 becomes a viable option;
- avoid Harmattan users to buy an Android smartphone to experiment Android OS, Android softwares, Android programming (there is Qt and Python for Android). So the Harmattan users have more money to buy/maintain Harmattan devices;
- afterall increase the N9/N950 user base.

Sorry but I see the "Community Awards" as part of Nokia "Summer'12 Device Program", which has some goals, including motivate the Maemo/MeeGo community and help reducing the list of missing softwares. Therefore more Harmattan activities : more sofwares, more community using Harmattan (including the 4 council members), etc.

Please don't cite Nokia Lumia here as possible prizes, it is nothing related to Maemo/MeeGo/Linux/Qt/decent mobile OS. I refused to participate on Nokia Lumia Device Program some months ago.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I don't want to fight or be inflammatory.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

compare contributions is just ridicules! it can never be fair! Most thanks, most, downloads, most lines of code, most hours spent and no judges. That is the only way eliminate the conflict of interested and make it fair up to a standard.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Sorry, but even as blunt and transparent as I am, this is not true, for two reasons:

• Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true. Lots of people believe in everything from invisible pink unicorns to flying spagetti monsters. That doesn't make any of them true.
• The other is that just because something is true doesn't mean it's meant to be known publicly. In fact some things can be true until they are known publicly, at which point it's no longer true. (See below.)

I'll use this as an example. Suppose someone at Samsung told Council something in confidence, say about a future takeover of Nokia and revival of the Maemo line. (Not, this is not fact, it's fantasy...) That would be awesome for the community to know in advance, but something they probably would not at liberty to actually disclose publicly until it happened. Posting that information publicly could damage that deal or kill it. At a minimum, it would destroy any future chances at getting advanced information, even though it's "the truth".

There are times when discretion and privacy are important.

We've had people being very upset that they were casually referred to in a Council meeting in an off-hand (and probably off-color) joke. Imagine if the per-Council vote, on who voted for whom, were made public. Imagine if every person in the CA had their merits disclosed, and reasoning for which person was better for a CA award in the opinion of each Council member. Do you think that wouldn't result in a firestorm? Yet doing just that was needed in order to make sure our decisions were based on true information, and for us to share knowledge from different parts of the community (because none of us is an expert in all areas of the Community.).

Something on this topic but not said earlier on the closed thread, because I was away for the weekend:

Reality TV is not the real world. Citing "Dancing with the Stars" as a real-life voting system is like saying Matlock is how most court cases are handled. Simon Cowell can be a complete àss because he doesn't have to later interact with the people he's bad-mouthing. Nor is he trying to build and maintain a community that cooperates and gets things done. In one-off, one-shot, total time-wasting, BS shows, you can vote publicly and harshly, because you don't need to care if that vote or it's reasoning is damaging to the individual or the community.

In communities where everyone will continue to live and work together after a political schism, voting must be private. The only exception is if the community is small, open, and tolerant enough to accept differences and self-criticism without forming grudges, cliques, or inter-group discrimination. This community, like most around the globe, does not have that quality.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Nice that you cite your reasons, but frankly, if someone is buying an N9 to run Android on it they're not generally going to care about or use Harmattan. If someone buys an N900 to work on Nemo, how does that help Fremantle, or CSSU, or... It may help sales of the device; but it generally doesn't help the Fremantle community. I think even the Harmattan community wouldn't agree on this point in unison.

Yet on that very page it states that the Community Awards is "unlike [the] other programs". One way it's unlike the others is that coding is not the focus, instead the focus is on "testers, helpers, hardware modders, contributing participants of brainstorms and so [on]". Tell me, how does a helper or hardware modder help reduce "missing apps"? They generally don't. They help other parts of the process, and build community, but they don't create missing apps.

The CA program has several differences from the other competitions, from not being app focused, to being for past work vs future promises, to Council voting vs a public vote or Nokia rep voting. The continued insistence that it has to have the same goals and requirements of the other program parts, given explicit statements to the contrary by those hosting it, is really depressing.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

F*ck me, this sh*t is still goin' on?????

Some of you guys are now embarrassing yourselves, it really is time to throw in the towel.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I think to some degree the screaming has stopped and there's actually some constructive discussion going on. Perhaps you should read a post or two. Sometimes threads change, once in a rare while even for the better. ;)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Let me remind you rules, quote from wiki:

Every time I visit TMO, I usually see NITDroid in the list of active topics. So, yeah... "It's not contribution".
You're funny in your attempts to shield dishonesty.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Tell this to Davie.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Ok, let fsck the nitdroid alone.

But what about rzr, itsnotabigtruck and other?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

When you put it like that I think any kind of contribution would be valid. Why not thanks from the community we shall support in this contest. I outrank you with a mile in thanks.

Where is my device?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I believe (almost) every submission was very valid. But there is a limitation on the number if devices that were available.
Only a few I would say never stood a chance (signing up to TMO, just to try and get a freebie)
Now - that you scream out so loud ;)
Can you please point me to just ONE contribution from you that has nothing to do with NitDroid?
I too fail to see how NitDroid has anything to do with Promoting Harmattan (or Meego) other than (fun).
If I want Android, I run an emulator, or buy one cheap-a** phone.
Mind you, I think its an accomplishment, this I dont deminor at all. But thats all it is.

PS - this is MY personal opinion - please dont consider that a general council opinion.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Dude, it's because you thank yourself for every post you make. And still you don't manage to have as many thanks as posts!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Oh, that is true. I forgot that. Thank you for reminding me.

:)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Where I can find (in rules) that contribution _MUST_ promote anything??
I'm not idiot to self-nominate for award if (apriori) I can't win. Obviously, I missed something while reading rules. What part of rules states smth about promotion?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

can we avoid the "my e-penis/contribution is better than yours" discussions? By experience they never end up being useful.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Best post ever! (in this thread) That is what I have been trying to say this whole time, but my English is not good enough.

This whole thing is a penis competionen from the beginning.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Ok, javispedoras, I agree.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Another "allwinner" for award of best conclusions to this thread. I absolutely agree.

By the way, comparing e-penis was the thing that "epic four" was trying to force on us, from the very beginning (i.e. writing, why someone's contribution got awarded, and other not = what was valued more or less).

/Estel