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Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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Most users ever online was 6,783, 09-19-11 at 03:02. Can anybody tell significance of the date? Quote:
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Best regards. |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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It was not MY crusade as you like to characterise it... Read the posts, I was ready to throw the towel in long ago. What was frustrating, was not getting any sort explanation as-to-why it was all so hard to do, long before the poll had even started. I'm not here to big note myself in any way, or push some kind of agenda, couldn't give a **** when it comes to stuff like that. [and I'll stress that I'm not the least bit interested in feathering my nest for a future run for the council/board, I'll leave better suited people for that] I've spelt out very clearly along the way what it is I was hoping to achieve. I've always been very clear if it's too impractical that's fine, but at the very least give a solid rationale as-to-why, that's NEVER happened. And if it really isn't a solid rationale, be prepared to be challenged on that, that's all. Again, I'm not oblivious to the hard work SD69 & others are doing, & it IS appreciated, but that doesn't excuse how things have unfolded. Quote:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=108 To which I responded.... http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=109 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=114 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=120 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=125 Not a single clarification or response to any of that... Plus there was MANY posts long before his at #108 asking the same sort of questions. Anyway, you should be happy, it looks like Hildon is becoming the run away favourite in the Poll. Seems like many users agree that it's more representative of the Maemo/MeeGo, MeR, & NitDroid derivatives than the other candidates. Democracy at it's finest hey.... Still, NFP/Co's being registered under the same name was apparently a big concern for SD69. I wonder if it still is now that we know that the same issue's there for Hildon, SD69, any comments, finally? Quote:
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Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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Well I don't think you got my point...I know karma is used for the elections... What I mean is that when only 230 members even bothered to vote for Council Elections; for someone to proclaim that since TMO has 65k+ registered members, the results we get from this poll would be insignificant isn't right... As you posted the link of current online users you can see only 144 registered members are online instead of the high numbers you may expect for a forum with 65k+ registered members...I mean hence, you can't discredit the poll that was put up here due to a small proportion of people voting from the amount of registered voters just as you don't discredit the Council Elections for only having 230 voters voting... I am just wondering aloud why is it whenever somebody who hasn't been here for a long time proposes something for the community is he put away instead of being encouraged? Why is there this old vs new divide that is very visible from the amount of smart-a** posts put out by those old members especially against those who are not in agreement with them or those who are introducing something new? |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
There's a meeting at 19:00 UTC at #maemo-meeting, I suspect most of the "communicating" will be done there.
That's 5am my time on a Saturday, & I already have prior commitments.... ivgalvez had promised to raise the issue of why the poll was being ditched so readily at that meeting, & if that was really imperative. But that was before that post SD69 made in another thread, which I re-posted & addressed here. Even though it's already registered under Hildon*, there's the new issue that a NFP called Hildon exists, which no doubt will be raised. *& assumedly can't be changed in the event that something else is more popular |
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Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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The idea was to have a discussion about it and at the end have a decision backed by the community, some weird democracy-thing or stuff... Quote:
Claiming almost 2 weeks later that it's too late now is... well, I leave that to you. |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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Have you even bothered to READ the posts throughout this thread* before asserting that -frankly- insulting opinion, certainly doesn't sound like it. Anyway... no hard feelings, & apologies again if some have been provoked**, I'm over it & I hope everyone else will be soon enough. I just hope we've learnt something from it all (me included), & that we'll approach discussing site_name & or domain(s) in a far more coordinated/organised & civil manner. It'll be best if the BoD/Council is behind that from the outset next time though, & is mostly driving it, but open/transparent/responsive to input ofc. *And I wouldn't wish such pain on my worst enemy, but it didn't have to be as convoluted as it end-up being, that's been my whole point, which you seem to have skirted over **no apology to benny who's served to be nothing but accusatory & destructive throughout this whole process... |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
I don't want to just argue for the sake of it but IIRC jalyst was clearly told on another thread to start a new thread if he wanted to get another name for the foundation...He did so and many pages in this thread were proposing/debating names and NOT debating the worthiness of having this thread...
Its too easy at times to proclaim that the so-called Harmattan camp want to leave their mark everywhere when they should simply be boxed into their Announce threads only... Might as well for Community related issues and Community governance issues make a new rule that if you joined after Harmattan released and are majorly a n9/950 user only then you are banned from Community discussion... I wonder if the name was something not inclusive of the Freemantle side of things what would these same people come out with...Oh they would have kept quiet and not asked for a more inclusive name? If you read the first draft of the by-laws you would have seen that jalyst pointed out to Council that it was very divisive by not having a single mention of the continuation of Nokia's efforts after the n900...After he pointed it out then the n9/950 was added in... I don't bother with such minor issues; I just felt that a inclusive name should be used and the Community should be allowed to vote for a name... Anyway, I am sorry for hurting all of you with my comments...Will try to exclude myself from Community discussion in the future... |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
Vote for MEEH = MaEmo mEr Harmattan
btw whos made that lists of name ? :D |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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The filings are underway, and the paper trail started. If we had put off filing any longer the paperwork would not be completed and filed with the proper offices by the time the elections finished. As it stands, it's likely there will be a delay between the Board being elected and it being able to actually act because of paperwork delays that have already happened. Changing the organizational name after the filings are in place is possible, it just costs money to do so. There's also the option of adding a name, like a DBA (Does Business As), which will probably be the easier thing to do. For that reason, I say let the poll take it's course. We can always add or adopt a new name. As things stand, Hildon Foundation was then, and is now, still topping the poll. As for "just waiting 6 more days", tell me: How do you think Nokia and others will react to the Board when it says "Sorry, we can't negotiate with you for another 6 days because of filing delays from when we were deciding on a name"? That's pretty sad. The bylaws,FYI, are an odd exception in this case. Bylaws for the group must be approved of by the first Board to become effective, so they can be discussed, reviewed, and revised right up to that first meeting. That's the only reason that discussion is still going on as well. I personally wanted those nailed down by the 17th as well, so people nominated for the positions would know what they were in for. But legally, they don't need to be finished until the first day the Board is active. So let me make it crystal clear here, for all to read: The bylaws MUST be finished by October 12th! Quote:
You say we didn't communicate this, but we have. We've been talking about this for months. It's been on the Mailing List, it's been in the weekly IRC meetings, it's been in the Blog posts of those meetings, and in the TMO posts related to that. We even made additional posts, and had moderators make them sticky to increase their visibility. I ask you, what more would you prefer we had done? Send you a personal invitation to comment on each thing we've discussed via a PM or e-mail? It's not like this was in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory, with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'. Sorry, I know you're upset. But to hear someone say "I didn't know X!", after we've done everything short of spam-mailing all 65K users here about every little thing as it happens, is beyond frustrating. The root of every issue this Council cycle has had has been individual people saying "I didn't know X!", when it had been out there to see, in quadruplicate, for months. Talked about, hashed, rehashed, in 4 different mediums, 20 different ways. "I didn't know Council could compete in the CA!" "I didn't know there even was a CA!" "I didn't know I needed to link my TMO profile to have enough Karma to vote!" "I didn't know we were forming a foundation!" "I didn't know voting for CC even started!" I guarantee you, during the vote cycle, people will come here to ask "What's this 'Board' election about?" And "Why didn't you tell us about this, and why can't we have say in X?!" There are probably a ton of people that don't know that Quim is no longer at Nokia. Or that Nokia is not renewing it's contract to keep the servers running past December. Or that there's been anything at all going on here to try to stop everything from going dark at the end of the year. To each of these people I ask: If you really care that badly, why would you not spend a drop of effort to keep up with anything going on? We care enough to put it out there in at least 4 different ways, every week, sometimes every day! You can read or even rss-feed the Blog, read or subscribe to one of several forum threads, subscribe to the mailing list, linger on IRC, or read the bot-logs from the channels. Any ONE of those would have gotten you this information. And at least 3 of those you can automate to the point that systems will push that info directly into you mailbox, or desktop, or widget, or instant message, or SMS, or tweet, or USB smoke-signal generator, or whatever you use as a primary communications media. It just gets to me when, after months of doing everything I can to keep on top of things and make sure things are known, and open, and transparent as they can possibly be, people still pop up and go "I didn't know X! And it's your fault for not driving to my house, knocking on my door, and telling me, directly, in my language, and forcing me to repeat it back to you, and then reminding me the next day in the same way, for week." Sorry... But you need to take some responsibility for this on yourself. Democracy requires of it's constituency a very minimal amount of effort to stay informed about what's going on. If you don't expend that minimal effort, it's hardly fair to complain about it. |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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chill out ;) |
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June 22nd: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...-june_22-2012/ June 23rd: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85061 June 29th: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...-june_29-2012/ July 6th: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...ting-july_6th/ <-- first note of name. July 10th: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ly/005552.html <-- name appears in bylaws. July 13th: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...-july_13-2012/ Name July 27th: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...uly_27th-2012/ repeated August 3rd: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...ng-aug_3-2012/ regularly August 10th: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...ust_10th-2012/ throughout August 17th: http://maemo.org/community/council/c...ust_17th-2012/ this August 24th: http://maemo.org/community/council/b...donfoundation/ time-frame. September 3rd: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=86556 <-- this thread starts So do you see the issue now? This is not "new". This has been around, quite literally, for months. Only in the last few days, 2 weeks before we needed to file papers to make this real, and spend the money (out of my pocket, btw) to make this thing go, did anyone say "hmm... I don't really like the name..." It's like being engaged to someone, setting up the wedding, walking down the isle, and the groom going "you know... I really wanted a blond, not a brunette. Can we dye your hair? What do you all think? Shouldn't I be able to marry a blonde?!" Now is not the time.... The time was before, or well after. |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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PS... Nominations started. :) Have you checked the wiki page at all yet? ;) |
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I asked several times if there could be any sort of leeway, as even if I had started the poll after a wk of feedback, we didn't know what sort of trend would arise, and how long the poll may need etc. Quote:
We were being told as early as the 11th that it was "too late", but we were not being given any explanation beyond that. Quote:
Does that mean we can now take our time & add some extra names, because some users have already expressed annoyance that none of the candidates are suitable. Plus there is already some question over whether we can use some names, including Hildon, so they may have to be removed. Quote:
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So from that point on I remained in limbo as to what to do, as I could never get any straight answer. After no response for about another wk & constant pressing by others, I decided to properly compose the OP, allow another 34hrs for revisions/input, & then start the poll. And there was no clear indication throughout the course of the thread that Hildon would be the most popular choice. In fact, I'd say Aeolos (or one of it's variants) would probably have had a stronger showing than it is, if it wasn't being split between Aeris. But Aeris was a suggestion with at least some explanation, so I was bound to also include it in the Poll. Quote:
I have been following the relevant threads closely though, & constantly posting questions asking councillors to clarify themselves, & PM'ing the odd councillor, I think that's enough. It wasn't like councillors were too busy elsewhere, there was always at least one actively partaking here, but critical posts were constantly missed -bizarrely enough. Quote:
It took so long to get any sort of feedback that I eventually just had to proceed regardless, by then it was ridiculously late, but i figured maybe with some direct dialogue in the next meeting, we could FINALLY sort something out. I readily concede I could've/should've just pushed ahead after the 1st wk instead of letting it drag well past the 2nd, but I was not operating in a vacuum, I was trying to get answers but hitting a brick wall. |
Re: We need a name for the NFP entity that we're changing to: add your vote(s)!
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I just casually mentioned at one point "Why it?" As it didn't seem fully representative of the community as-a-whole, it was but one of other things I was addressing in the by-laws. The problem was it had always been a tentative name by your own admissions, you even conceded it wasn't exactly decided via a wide-ranging consensus, hence you reluctantly (understandably) agreed to a thread/poll. Had it been executed that way many months ago, maybe we wouldn't be having this problem, easy to say with hindsight of course :) Quote:
Some (most?) of us don't live/breathe the governance side of things, + I've mostly dropped-off in frequency at TMO over the last several mths (too busy IRL). And I'd like to stress again, I am very appreciative of all the work that those who are councillors (or will be) have done or will do. It just would've been nice if there was a bit more responsiveness along the way, that would've saved a fair bit of confusion/drama. |
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@ least as far as i could without concrete data; will try to track down the mailing lists & all... |
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I'm talking about the contract Nokia has with service providers to keep the lights on. Those contracts, to my understanding, for ALL services related to Maemo/MeeGo, terminate at the end of the year, regardless of provider. It is also my understanding that currently one group has administrative access to all of the above mentioned services. I do not know the layout of those services internally, nor their physical or network locations. What you're noting is that their network locations (and possibly their physical locations) are varied, which very well may be. But they are all serviced by one group. This is not at all uncommon in the world of networking. It would not seem odd to me at all to see a high-bandwidth service (like a repository) placed in a different physical location where data access is faster or cheaper. It also makes sense from a standpoint of redundancy to have systems in separate locations, allowing the others to serve as backup locations and/or fail-over systems. For all we know, these servers could be running in Nokia office complexes across several countries. I'm hoping we'll know more about all of this very soon. But right now, what we do know we're happy to share. What we don't we'll be sure to ask about. :) |
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As for adding names, that will be for the next Board to decide on. As custodians (until the 12th) I don't see using funds to add a DBA as an appropriate use, since we still don't even know how much funding we'll have, and what we'll need to keep the lights on yet. As for other groups having the same name: Often the only time this is a conflict is when one goes after the other for using their name. Legally the challenge has to be made, and upheld in court, that a reasonable person could confuse the two groups or think one is a sponsor of, or endorsement of the other. For example the Apple Record company going after Apple Computer over the bitten-apple logo. In this case, since the other "Hildon Foundation" is a municipal water company, I don't think it's going to be an issue. Quote:
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And before you say you don't have time for it: It took you longer to read this reply than it would have for you to read the summary of the last meeting. Quote:
The end result of all of this is that this has been in the work for several months. Your "annoyance" at the name popped up in the last week or two before things had to be finalized, when things more important and far more permanent, were happening. Would it have been great to have a poll for the name 3 months ago? Sure. Initially we were going with Maemo Community until that was shot down by Quim over trademark issues. It was discussed in Council meetings, and put into the first draft of the bylaws months ago though, and nobody complained, until a couple weeks ago. Frankly, the name is really not at all significant. It will be used in a few legal agreements, and that's about it. We've spent hours here, over something that will be used probably about 30 times in the next 3 years, by a dozen people or so at most. Meanwhile, of all the people commenting here, only a couple have bothered to even read the bylaws, and comment on them. You know, the thing providing structure, governance and the mission of this foundation? Tell me: Which is more important? The name of a group, or the structure and mission of the group? Now you'll excuse me... I have to go see about twisting some arms to run for Council, as the deadline on that is coming up this Friday, and we have to date 0 candidates. You remember Council, right? The group doing all this work to keep things going, while others sit around criticizing them for doing what they were voted in to do... |
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they are still selling N9s and they will stop supporting them in 3 months? ? Quote:
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And that's a total mis-characterization, there's been many throughout the course of this thread who've expressed interest for names other than Hildon, peppered with the odd person who's explicitly expressed a dislike for it (& a preference for theirs), & I'm not one of them. Quote:
Then if the next Board decide it's fine to proceed w/a consensus name (no more rushing, Poll can run for several mth etc) we can add extra names to the new one, & maybe remove some if there's too much legal concern. But TBH I'm over it all long ago, as pointed out many times now, it's really quite a superficial thing. Do others still care? I don't know, maybe quite a few still would. Perhaps it's best that the next council/BoD get the message out to as wide an audience as possible, that the NFP's already registered under X name, but that it wasn't chosen in the most ideal community consensus fashion, & if they so chose, the council can proceed w/a representative selection process (ofc explain the trivialities of the NFP name as part of that). Quote:
I always thought something along these lines would in-fact be the reality... Quote:
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The current by-laws thread 1st started a mth+ ago not 2wks, that's when I 1st noted the NFP name being used, even then it was getting a bit too late of course, given the deadline. Quote:
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I don't make a habit of reacting the way I did several posts back, I defy you to find many other eg's in my posting history, it didn't come from nowhere. N.B. I'm removing email notifications for this thread & all others, except for maybe 1-2 (probably just Maemo elections & by-laws). If anyone wants me to update the OP (even if it's somewhat redundant ATM), feel free to shoot me a PM & I'll do so. |
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