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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   Nokia N900 (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
-   -   Nokia has exciting news for N900 users (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58884)

HugoSon 2010-07-27 07:17
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maartenmk (Post 766036)
The first part is true, but you could save a JPEG without the post-processing functions applied, couldn't you? You would lose some of the color-depth, but there would hardly be any artifacts, and it is indeed a lot more practical than the RAW output.
...the build in JPEG processing takes into concern some parameters in order to optimize the output; like sharpening, lens aberration, etc.. White-balance has to be applied anyway – so no: just save the RAW dump without applying any settings will result in a worth result. The artifacts you are talking about are coming mostly with the JPEG compression and the fact, that the chip within these cams is just much too small to deal with low light conditions and you see some noise/artifacts because of the too high pixel density on the chip.

maartenmk 2010-07-27 08:45
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoSon (Post 766063)
...the build in JPEG processing takes into concern some parameters in order to optimize the output; like sharpening, lens aberration, etc.. White-balance has to be applied anyway – so no: just save the RAW dump without applying any settings will result in a worth result. The artifacts you are talking about are coming mostly with the JPEG compression and the fact, that the chip within these cams is just much too small to deal with low light conditions and you see some noise/artifacts because of the too high pixel density on the chip.
I would be surprised if the JPEG processing and the sharpening etc. are really linked, but if they are, a software JPEG processor could be an option.
And the JPEG compression artifacts are really nothing to worry about, it is the blurring-sharpening that is usually the culprit.
As for lens aberration and white balance, I wouldn't mind if that is applied.

attila77 2010-07-27 08:46
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maartenmk (Post 766036)
The first part is true, but you could save a JPEG without the post-processing functions applied, couldn't you? You would lose some of the color-depth, but there would hardly be any artifacts, and it is indeed a lot more practical than the RAW output.
That would not be overly useful to most people, as most sensors are not made up of RGB pixels - you need to process the data to get even that first (the left side shows how RAW would look like if was saved as an image).

http://www.rawxplorer.com/convert.jpg

maartenmk 2010-07-27 09:47
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 766139)
That would not be overly useful to most people, as most sensors are not made up of RGB pixels - you need to process the data to get even that first (the left side shows how RAW would look like if was saved as an image).

[...]
I was talking about post-processing, i.e. image enhancements such as edge sharpening.

But i am not trying to have a theoretical debate here, let me state it differently:
The standard jpeg output is the result of post-processing routines in the phone, which are by their nature sub-obtimal.
Raw output on the other hand is nice, but impractical.
.
Therefore I would prefer a jpeg (or ping) output that is as close to the image as captured by the sensor as can reasonably be expected from this type of format.

attila77 2010-07-27 10:03
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maartenmk (Post 766186)
The standard jpeg output is the result of post-processing routines in the phone, which are by their nature sub-obtimal.
Raw output on the other hand is nice, but impractical.
.
The thing is, you NEED some postprocessing for the image to look remotely useful. A phone-cam jpeg image, saved without any noise reduction, sharpening and WB/colorspace magic looks genuinely terrible. And if you need to postprocess it anyway before you actually use it, you might as well use RAW as a source. This is also one of the reasons DSLRs have dual-format modes like RAW+JPG. That way you have a low q jpeg for showing/looking/searching, and if you decide an image is a keeper, you can always post-process it later.

danramos 2010-07-27 19:40
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 766205)
The thing is, you NEED some postprocessing for the image to look remotely useful. A phone-cam jpeg image, saved without any noise reduction, sharpening and WB/colorspace magic looks genuinely terrible. And if you need to postprocess it anyway before you actually use it, you might as well use RAW as a source. This is also one of the reasons DSLRs have dual-format modes like RAW+JPG. That way you have a low q jpeg for showing/looking/searching, and if you decide an image is a keeper, you can always post-process it later.
This is fine, except that at 5 megapixels and on a cell phone that doesn't so much as even have a tripod stand screw-hole in the bottom, this seems unnecessary. I appreciate all the controls in the software, but RAW is neither a good "format" (if it can even be called that) nor is it a particularly useful one.

Regardless, it's nice that it has that option. So I tend to agree with both camps on this one but I would prefer more work done on enhancing the on-the-fly features or even better, add in some RAW file processing features right on the device. This is supposed to be, after all, a computer-first device, right?

Another suggestion: Nokia (or someone) should design a tripod mount adapter (say, an N900 mount with a tripod hole in the bottom).

These would validate the RAW format on this device a little more.

ZackMorris 2010-07-27 20:07
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
What is everyone using to process the RAW?

ZackMorris 2010-07-27 20:41
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Also has anyone else noticed that when the files are named they are a month off in the naming structure?

ossipena 2010-07-27 21:02
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maartenmk (Post 766036)
The first part is true, but you could save a JPEG without the post-processing functions applied, couldn't you? You would lose some of the color-depth, but there would hardly be any artifacts, and it is indeed a lot more practical than the RAW output.
"some"? :D

only something like 3800 shades per colour :D reducing from 4096 to 256

jpeg just doesn't have enough headroom.

ossipena 2010-07-27 21:07
Re: Nokia has exciting news for N900 users
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maartenmk (Post 766186)
Therefore I would prefer a jpeg (or ping) output that is as close to the image as captured by the sensor as can reasonably be expected from this type of format.
well, it would be so hideous (soft, AA...) and lack the adjustment headroom.

and the pixel pitch is so small that there must be some NR done before even trying to create a jpg.....


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