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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   Jolla1 & TOH (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=56)
-   -   Jolla User Experience Thread (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91875)

hemiwi 2013-12-18 13:33
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeGee (Post 1398178)
My 64Gb card is formatted ext4, and I need to mount it manually every time I reboot (root, "mount /dev/mmcblk1p1 /run/user/100000/media/sdcard").
But that alone isn't enough to see the folders. I made a bunch of symlinks so that I have /home/nemo/SDcard, /home/nemo/Music/SDmusic, /home/nemo/video/SDvideo etc. This probably isn't the best way of doing this, but it works.
Although after mounting the SD card after reboot, you might need to tell tracker to reindex. There is "tracker-sd-indexing.sh", that seems to enable removable media indexing and restart tracker.
Didn't got my Jolla yet but have formatted my 64Gb card as ext4 too.
Is there a possibility to write a batch file to execute?
Manually mounting the card each time incl. adressing different folders is.......time consumiong:p

att 2013-12-18 13:36
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic (Post 1398022)
True. As I wrote: WPA EAP.
I opened wpa_supplicant.conf on the Jolla device, but there are not networks configured in the file. Is there some additional layer like network_manager used?
They are using connman (Connection Manager) and i think it might be communicating with wpa_supplicant and sending the configuration through socket /var/run/wpa_supplicant/wlan0.

gaelic 2013-12-18 13:40
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1398182)
They are using connman (Connection Manager) and i think it might be communicating with wpa_supplicant and sending the configuration through socket /var/run/wpa_supplicant/wlan0.
thx. I'll try that as soon as possible

att 2013-12-18 13:41
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemiwi (Post 1398180)
Didn't got my Jolla yet but have formatted my 64Gb card as ext4 too.
Is there a possibility to write a batch file to execute?
Manually mounting the card each time incl. adressing different folders is.......time consumiong:p
You can probably make systemd do it or configure a new unit for systemd that will do it.

For now I have tried to stay away from systemd. SystemV init, BSD's rc and Upstart seem so clear and easy when compared to systemd.

att 2013-12-18 13:43
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strongm (Post 1398072)
Oh, I'm aware of the first of those - but it does not actually help with USB MTP, not on my Jolla anyway.
For me both works when using USB MTP.

gaelic 2013-12-18 13:43
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by parasemic (Post 1398179)
Jolla employee confirmed on finnish it forums 100% of staff is sending phones.
As most users don't speak finish there's no point in that.

Quote:
They have below 100 employees for ****s sake.
I cited 2 wikipedia entries, you're just swearing.

Quote:
Thats why its also ridiculous to cry about missing features etc as even in current state Sailfish is a remarkable achievement.
I'm not crying I'm simply criticising that essential features are missing (and I'm not alone)

att 2013-12-18 13:44
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic (Post 1398098)
And I'm not expecting a device with xxx Mio Apps and things like that. But I expect basic features to work.
And the expected basic features are different for every person.

att 2013-12-18 13:46
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milhouse (Post 1398137)
Agreed that new platforms don't launch fully featured, but this isn't really the problem as I don't think anyone was expecting that. However after all the early hype the "beta" tag arrived really quite late, certainly after people had put down their pre-order money, and it's frankly unusual for retail products to launch in a beta state, so in that sense no, it's not "common sense" at all.
I'm sorry but I don't see how this is different from iOS and Android. Both were quite buggy and had many features missing when they launched. And despite that they didn't have "alpha" or "beta" tags with them.

gaelic 2013-12-18 13:48
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1398188)
And the expected basic features are different for every person.
Connection to wifi with a smartphone? Who's not expecting that?

DeeGee 2013-12-18 13:49
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
@hemiwi
Well you should only need to make the symbolic links once, after that you need to do "only" the mounting and tracker restart each time. I'm not proficient enough to do automatic script to do this every boot.

Symbolic links that I use:
Code:
ln -s /run/user/100000/media/sdcard /home/nemo/SDcard
ln -s /run/user/100000/media/sdcard/Video /home/nemo/Video/SDvideo
ln -s /run/user/100000/media/sdcard/Music /home/nemo/Video/SDmusic
Mounting & indexing
Code:
devel-su
password
mount /dev/mmcblk1p1 /run/user/100000/media/sdcard
tracker-sd-indexing.sh

att 2013-12-18 13:51
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGan (Post 1398146)
No smartphone is launched fully featured but I don't think any phone has launched with so many bugs.
What I remember about my first experiences with N9 two years ago: N9 PR1.0 had much more bugs than Jolla and PR1.1 was a huge improvement over PR1.0.

att 2013-12-18 13:57
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kein (Post 1398150)
Actually Jolla is only sending out 400 unit a day. It has been reported that Jolla has about 100 staff in Finland so all hands available would mean 4 units per person per day. Btw, they don't work on Sat and Sun.
Based on what reads on the papers in the international shipments it seems that DHL Supply Chain is actually packing and providing the packages to FedEx. It might be that Jolla is still flashing the phones or they have also outsourced that to DHL Supply Chain.

The picture provided by Jolla is probably about sailors flashing the first 450 phones sold at Helsinki Narinkkatori to the first preorderers.

att 2013-12-18 14:02
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic (Post 1398193)
Connection to wifi with a smartphone? Who's not expecting that?
WLAN works for me. You are using "edge" case of WLAN. If I remember correctly N900 and/or N9 didn't also support your case at the beginning.

SamGan 2013-12-18 14:15
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1398198)
What I remember about my first experiences with N9 two years ago: N9 PR1.0 had much more bugs than Jolla and PR1.1 was a huge improvement over PR1.0.
My N9 was highly usable with PR 1.0. After I updated to PR1.1 I barely noticed the difference.

gaelic 2013-12-18 14:16
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1398202)
WLAN works for me. You are using "edge" case of WLAN.
WPA EAP is a standard, broadly used and nothing new.

Quote:
If I remember correctly N900 and/or N9 didn't also support your case at the beginning.
It's not like it's neccesary to inventing the wheel from scratch for every new device ... wpa_supplicant + clients (wicd,networkmanager) already support it out of the box.
And also not to make the same mistakes Nokia made in the past (now they're more or less non-existant, guess why)

jsiren 2013-12-18 14:17
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
I'd say WPA-PEAP isn't an "edge" case of WLAN, even if a minority case. It's quite common in academic (eduroam, more than 5000 networks in 54 countries) and corporate settings. Anyhow, as far as I understand, connman and wpa_supplicant both support WPA-PEAP, so it should be no more than a UI issue.

maluka 2013-12-18 14:20
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGan (Post 1398146)
No smartphone is launched fully featured but I don't think any phone has launched with so many bugs. Jolla customers are paying real money to be beta testers and to top it off the company doesn't appear to take bugs seriously enough to start a bug tracker. Even an offer to start a bugzilla for Jolla was met with the response "we have no time to read it" which borders on arrogance.
This is becoming hyperbolic. Android, Windows Phone and iOS all launched with major bugs and missing features.

Jolla is a tiny company who are being honest about their bug tracking limitations and they're being attacked for that. I would rather them tell me the truth than have them put up a false facade.

Stuarty 2013-12-18 14:23
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ste-phan (Post 1397588)
Ergonomocs: well IMO they are not too great actually ... I love the rounded feeling of an N900 or 808, Pre 3. This square phone trend looks nice but is not too comfortable to hold and will undoubtedly later be classified amongst weird 1980's designs when new technologies arrives and telephones are no longer display centric.]
Yes, exactly what I was thinking. The rounded shape of the Pre 3 or N9 really make a difference to everyday use.

And after nearly two years with an N9 the biggest adjustment for me is moving from mostly one handed use to almost always needing both hands.

att 2013-12-18 14:27
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsiren (Post 1398209)
I'd say WPA-PEAP isn't an "edge" case of WLAN, even if a minority case. It's quite common in academic (eduroam, more than 5000 networks in 54 countries) and corporate settings. Anyhow, as far as I understand, connman and wpa_supplicant both support WPA-PEAP, so it should be no more than a UI issue.
Yes, I know very well. I have used eduroam and I have been a very little piece of building it.

I still consider WPA-PEAP an edge case for "normal" people.

att 2013-12-18 14:28
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGan (Post 1398206)
My N9 was highly usable with PR 1.0. After I updated to PR1.1 I barely noticed the difference.
We obviously then used different feature sets :)

att 2013-12-18 14:31
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic (Post 1398208)
WPA EAP is a standard, broadly used and nothing new.
When you replace WPA EAP with XXX: How many times I have heard that in different contexts, even this year :)

jsiren 2013-12-18 14:32
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1398214)
Yes, I know very well. I have used it and I have been a very little piece of building it.

I still consider WPA-PEAP an edge case for "normal" people.
I always knew I wasn't normal :D

jsiren 2013-12-18 14:34
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuarty (Post 1398213)
Yes, exactly what I was thinking. The rounded shape of the Pre 3 or N9 really make a difference to everyday use.

And after nearly two years with an N9 the biggest adjustment for me is moving from mostly one handed use to almost always needing both hands.
Maybe this could be addressed to a degree with a slightly differently shaped or lightly textured OH?

kpblxa 2013-12-18 14:35
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
battery drain is something ... they should have put double capacity battery in this god damn phone!

gaelic 2013-12-18 14:43
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1398219)
When you replace WPA EAP with XXX: How many times I have heard that in different contexts, even this year :)
Still it's nothing new and the tools Sailfish is using already support it out-of-the-box.

P@t 2013-12-18 14:48
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Where is the bug tracker for iOS and Android?

As far as I agree that a bug tracker would be nice, people complain because they can. Usually there is no way you can contact and read developpers !! We should be happy about it?!
That is already a good sign. And they promised to address this and improve the collection of bugs and that information towards customers.

I still have faith that things are gradually put in place and we should be confident that they listen. Jolla was vaporware for some but we did believe something will come out and it is happening.

If I have a worry, it is more like that too many people would abandon them and force them to abandon as well... So I hope that they are able to improve the OS rapidly to keep the first adopters and attract new ones...

strongm 2013-12-18 14:52
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGan (Post 1398206)
My N9 was highly usable with PR 1.0. After I updated to PR1.1 I barely noticed the difference.
That was my experience with the N9 as well. I loved the N9 from the first day of using it. I am less happy with the Jolla (not the same as being unhappy, though)

ste-phan 2013-12-18 14:53
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Here is a note on XMPP / SIP - I tried hard to excuse Jolla for the temporary (dreaming of white Christmas) lacking integrated SIP and went on to install my favorite Android application for that.

It didn't work well and I had to revert to yet another SIP application that is still in Alpha on Android but which surprisingly added problem free XMPP secure chat.

Great victory today: I have gained a feature that my N900 does not offer.

Here's the summary.


One side N900 or Siemens C610IP, other side Jolla

2 different internet accounts.

CSIPSimple: this elegant and well integrated Android SIP solution seems to have trouble to run on the Alien Dalvik, probable cause is the high level of integration this application provides.

-connects to SIP accounts (Betamax DE and Terrasip ES show online)
-cannot call regular fixed line: press call: nothing happens , number disappears
-cannot establish call to other SIP (Betamax, Terrasip)
-cannot create contacts etc.. (unsupported action - probably due to Android integration level, fine to me that Jolla contact book is shielded off)
-can control Jolla native phone application to call via regular cellular network - upon user confirmation
-can accept incoming call on SIP account, no sound both directions and application sometimes crashes.
-built in sound test: no VU activity, all sound dead


Jitsi: promising but this is alpha software so it is hard draw a line between Alien Dalvik implementation failures or Jitisi :D

-connects: both XMPP and SIP show online
-sound plays via loudspeaker, not ear speaker (as reported with Skype for Android), microphone works
-Camera: no camera device found :(
-can receive call on SIP and from external fixed on DID number - so so quality but there are plenty of codecs to try out.
-could not place call to fixed from SIP (call window appears and jumps away)
-secure ZRTP XMPP voice call established but underwater sound effects, however this is happenin in Jitsi desktop client as well.
-secure XMPP text chat: OK



Conclusion: the virtual layer implementation is lacking the following features:

-no sound redirection to ear telephone speaker (all voip appellations seem to indicated this)
-camera apears not connected to VM
-applications seem to be not allowed to select a contact from the native Sailfish address book

How can we configure Alien Dalvik per application access rights?



Both applications are complex and highly configurable so if you have more luck with CSIPSimple for example kindly correct this summary.

Note on installation:

Just download the APK with the built in Jolla browser then tap one time on the downloaded APK from your download list (if you know how to find it in Sailfish , he he) , a message will appear that the application is installed.

No app shop required. Life can simple and beautiful sometimes.

https://code.google.com/p/csipsimple/
https://jitsi.org/


To nice to be real: all native apps online and interactively integrated in the home screen ;-) http://sdrv.ms/1fmJ2Cn

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=photo%2c.JPG

pycage 2013-12-18 14:54
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
The Sailfish mailing list has information about bug reporting and lessons learned from Maemo days.

The essence of it being
Quote:
So, in summary, we are working on systems for this and we don't want to provide
a half-baked solution which no-one will like - watch this space!

tissot 2013-12-18 14:55
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpblxa (Post 1398222)
battery drain is something ... they should have put double capacity battery in this god damn phone!
Here's some about that.
http://wpsailors.com/2013/12/18/joll...te-soc-change/

pycage 2013-12-18 14:58
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tissot (Post 1398233)
So it can only become better. Right now it's on par with the N9, I'd say. Disabling 3G in areas with weak reception helps a bit, too.

zwer 2013-12-18 15:07
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by P@t (Post 1398227)
Where is the bug tracker for iOS and Android?
I'm all for cutting some slack to Jolla given their size and efforts so far, but we have to stop excusing them for doing / not doing something that iOS and/or Android developers do / don't do. Most of us are sailing on jolla precisely because we are not happy with the current offer from the aforementioned. If I wanted an iOS or Android device I wouldn't have followed Jolla at all. Aren't they supposed to be, you know - unlike?

I do think that any serious software product, and it doesn't get much more serious than a full-blown OS itself, needs to have a bug tracker accessible by its users. Nowadays it's not a rarity for software to completely overshadow the hardware in terms of complexity, down to the last transistor - thus, no matter how much people and time you devote to testing it will necessarily come out with a ton of bugs, and not just bugs that fit under a 'special use case' but some downright glaring. That's why you need to extend your bug tracking facilities all the way to the users of your software because both parties benefit in that process.

Just because Apple and Google don't have such facilities in place, doesn't mean that Jolla shouldn't.

daperl 2013-12-18 15:12
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silwer (Post 1397638)
I do not want to sound "Lumiaman", however, after one day using Jolla I can not find a single thing that performs on Jolla better than on N9. Jolla Sailfish is still so beta.
I might be even using N9 for next 6 months and hopefully by that time Jolla has improved a bit.
Agreeing with Lumiaman is similar to telling time with a broken clock.

pycage 2013-12-18 15:21
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwer (Post 1398238)
I'm all for cutting some slack to Jolla given their size and efforts so far, but we have to stop excusing them for doing / not doing something that iOS and/or Android developers do / don't do. Most of us are sailing on jolla precisely because we are not happy with the current offer from the aforementioned. If I wanted an iOS or Android device I wouldn't have followed Jolla at all. Aren't they supposed to be, you know - unlike?

I do think that any serious software product, and it doesn't get much more serious than a full-blown OS itself, needs to have a bug tracker accessible by its users. Nowadays it's not a rarity for software to completely overshadow the hardware in terms of complexity, down to the last transistor - thus, no matter how much people and time you devote to testing it will necessarily come out with a ton of bugs, and not just bugs that fit under a 'special use case' but some downright glaring. That's why you need to extend your bug tracking facilities all the way to the users of your software because both parties benefit in that process.

Just because Apple and Google don't have such facilities in place, doesn't mean that Jolla shouldn't.
IMHO, users don't (know how to) use bug trackers.

zwer 2013-12-18 15:29
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pycage (Post 1398242)
IMHO, users don't (know how to) use bug trackers.
Fair enough. However I do think that users of the software can and should contribute towards its overall quality, and while most lame users either don't bother or don't know how to use them, there are those who do and are willing to.

A bug tracker, even a simplified one, and a knowledgeable moderator for it are not much of an expense and benefits are usually greater than such small investment.

strongm 2013-12-18 15:32
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pycage (Post 1398242)
IMHO, users don't (know how to) use bug trackers.
That may be true of typical phone users - but is that the target audience for the current iteration of Jolla/Sailfish?

Milhouse 2013-12-18 15:34
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pycage (Post 1398232)
The Sailfish mailing list has information about bug reporting and lessons learned from Maemo days.
Good to hear - do you have a link to the discussion?

Never mind, found it. :)

I'll pipe down about the lack of a Bugzilla for now, but if there's nothing forthcoming in the new year I'll be raising the issue again.

Milhouse 2013-12-18 15:40
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by P@t (Post 1398227)
Where is the bug tracker for iOS and Android?
I don't care how Apple or Google run their development, the key thing is that there has always been an active bug tracker for Maemo/MeeGo-Harmattan projects, practically since day #1 back in 2005, and I don't see why Jolla should be any different given their history and legacy.

Open projects (and I don't include Android in that definition) have always had public bug trackers. Jolla claim they are open and "unlike" the rest, so...

Milhouse 2013-12-18 15:48
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwer (Post 1398244)
Fair enough. However I do think that users of the software can and should contribute towards its overall quality, and while most lame users either don't bother or don't know how to use them, there are those who do and are willing to.

A bug tracker, even a simplified one, and a knowledgeable moderator for it are not much of an expense and benefits are usually greater than such small investment.
Totally agree, I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong when I say that the community would be more than willing to help moderate a public bug tracker. It's always been that way in the past with Maemo and Harmattan Bugzillas. I lost count of the number of new bugs I marked as "duplicates", created by users that didn't bother to search and thought they were the first to discover a bug. It's not a major hardship as long as the tracker provides some value which it usually does, even if it's not read the software team (although it should at least filter into their internal system).

P@t 2013-12-18 15:59
Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwer (Post 1398238)
Just because Apple and Google don't have such facilities in place, doesn't mean that Jolla shouldn't.
Do not read only first line ;) I never meant such a thing.
I am all in favour of more communication/transparency. I am just suggesting to leave them some time to implement things as we want...
And we should be happy of what they did already because in the rest of the world, this is not that brilliant!


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