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-   -   Let's talk Nokia stock! (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=56370)

Cue 2012-07-23 11:22
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauha (Post 1241556)
They are considering same kind of revenue sharing model as what Apple does with iPhone, which is pretty freaking amazing.
Oh, Apples strategy in full then? I thought it might of meant confirmed carrier billing on the WP8 app store.

RFS-81 2012-07-23 13:00
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1241305)
Nokia hardware is great but software inferior, hence WP.
Ok answer this. If the MS made software is so exceptionally good as you make it sound, wouldn't you expect that after pumping billions to it's development for a decade (as MS did), and having a long headstart to both iOS and Android, everybody on this planet shoud be using a windows based mobile os by now. Why is this not the case?

Lumiaman 2012-07-23 13:26
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFS-81 (Post 1241632)
Ok answer this. If the MS made software is so exceptionally good as you make it sound, wouldn't you expect that after pumping billions to it's development for a decade (as MS did), and having a long headstart to both iOS and Android, everybody on this planet shoud be using a windows based mobile os by now. Why is this not the case?

Dont know. All I know is that for a common man and woman, Lumia 800 is way better than what Nokia was offering up to now, at this moment. Whether it succeeds or not, I dont know either, but out of everything that Nokia had up its sleeves, WP 7 is the smoothest platform. Good luck to them, I wish they can be wealthy, healthy and throw few open freebies your way for you to hack.

specc 2012-07-23 13:27
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFS-81 (Post 1241632)
Ok answer this. If the MS made software is so exceptionally good as you make it sound, wouldn't you expect that after pumping billions to it's development for a decade (as MS did), and having a long headstart to both iOS and Android, everybody on this planet shoud be using a windows based mobile os by now. Why is this not the case?
OK, Mr Lumiaman didn't say that WP was great. He said Nokia software was inferior and implied that WP was better. It could very well be that limiaman think that WP is the greatest of the greatest, but you cannot imply that from what he said. So why do you?

switch-hitter 2012-07-23 14:19
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1241647)
All I know is that for a common man and woman, Lumia 800 is way better than what Nokia was offering up to now, at this moment.
You don't know it, it's just your opinion. What's happening in the real world tells a different story.

The greater the breadth of functionality included in a device the better chance it has of catering for each individuals needs.

cheve 2012-07-23 14:27
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1241648)
OK, Mr Lumiaman didn't say that WP was great. He said Nokia software was inferior and implied that WP was better. It could very well be that limiaman think that WP is the greatest of the greatest, but you cannot imply that from what he said. So why do you?
As some has brought out the example of Amiga of the old where the 'better' machine did not win the war. So, it could be the same for the new WP8 phone. Nokia is putting all their eggs in this one basket(and given the past track record for the older WPx phone), it really does not look good.

Lumiaman 2012-07-23 15:18
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch-hitter (Post 1241384)
In Q4 2010 NOKIA's smartphone sales were up 36% year on year and the gross margin for smart devices was 29%. Also GM and ASP both went up in Q4 2010 as a result of the arrival of the N8.

In Q2 2012 NOKIA's smartphone sales are down 39% year on year and the gross margin is down to 23%.

It's not uncommon to see reductions in gross margins going hand in hand with increased sales, when customers place larger orders they expect keener prices (remember NOKIA's customers are carriers and retailers not Joe Public).

Decreasing margins combined with rapidly decreasing sales is a much more ominous sign.



The hundreds of millions of people who continued to buy Symbian phones long after iPhone and Android hit the market prove you wrong. Symbian absolutely, categorically was competing. Sorry if you don't like it but it's patently, obviously true.

You may want to read this, a slightly different interpretation of what you wrote....


http://dominiescommunicate.wordpress...-january-2011/

Dave999 2012-07-23 15:41
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1241701)
You may want to read this, a slightly different interpretation of what you wrote....


http://dominiescommunicate.wordpress...-january-2011/
Tomi ahonen and Eldar, I don't think the words they write has any value any more. They simply to simple minded.

volt 2012-07-23 15:47
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
That interpretation of TA's blog says that because TA saw that Nokia lost market share before Elop killed Symbian, it can't possibly be that Elop is to blame for the total and utter collapse of sales in units after he killed it.

Right. I'm sure there's some logic in there somewhere. Only, it appears to be warped.

Cue 2012-07-23 15:51
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1241701)
You may want to read this, a slightly different interpretation of what you wrote....


http://dominiescommunicate.wordpress...-january-2011/
Worst counter-blog I've read. If you are trying to make a point do not copy whole blog entries verbatim and then comment with one line in-between on one single point in a very similar format. I don't care how poor your wordpress/English skills are, that's just very poor form and makes your point harder to get. Didn't even understand the point s/he was making most of the time.

gerbick 2012-07-23 16:25
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volt (Post 1241548)
There is some news.

Nokia is considering a change in strategy.

No, not the way you might have been hoping. They are considering dumping the traditional strategy of selling to as many as possible in as many as possible places in Europe. Instead they want to implement the US strategy that's been so "successful" for them in the US. Pick a few operators and have exclusive partnerships. This is surely an result of moving the "successful" US market director up to global market director. Not at all suited here where we have loads of operators per country.

Should shake the stock down even a few more cents.

Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...86M00520120723
Elop has a one-track mind. The US market will not sustain or save Nokia.

Looking like my prediction of a dollar stock by August (I think I said originally end of July) is gonna happen.

mikecomputing 2012-07-23 16:49
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheve (Post 1241676)
As some has brought out the example of Amiga of the old where the 'better' machine did not win the war. So, it could be the same for the new WP8 phone. Nokia is putting all their eggs in this one basket(and given the past track record for the older WPx phone), it really does not look good.
Atari was better than Amiga ....

Anyway, this thread is pointless

Lumiaman 2012-07-23 16:53
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1241718)
Worst counter-blog I've read. If you are trying to make a point do not copy whole blog entries verbatim and then comment with one line in-between on one single point in a very similar format. I don't care how poor your wordpress/English skills are, that's just very poor form and makes your point harder to get. Didn't even understand the point s/he was making most of the time.
The point is that we really don't know what was going on behind the curtains, and what numbers they truly had, read and acted upon. I suspect that the numbers were bad, and board approved Elop's burning platform. In retrospect, the burning platform letter was stupid, but he was following 101 business school class to align everyone in new direction, by telling the people where they were going. We can be armchair quarterbacks here, but we dont have all the info that made the board hire Elop and give him permission to burn the platform.

specc 2012-07-23 16:54
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1241718)
Didn't even understand the point s/he was making most of the time.
Hmmm. Exactly what was so difficult to understand in that blog entry? It all makes perfect sense to me. Tomy is deranged, and increasingly so as time passes. I wonder what he says in 1 year :D But, he is not stupid, far from it, only anti Elop to the point of insanity.

Meanwhile, stock is rising in NY :D Helsinki did a recover :D

switch-hitter 2012-07-23 17:05
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1241701)
You may want to read this, a slightly different interpretation of what you wrote....

http://dominiescommunicate.wordpress...-january-2011/
I got my figures from the financial statements published on NOKIA's own web site.

I'm really not too interested in: 'TA said this but previously TA had said that'... yawn :rolleyes:

mikecomputing 2012-07-23 17:06
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1241553)
This might mean their next phone is going to be priced very high. They are trying to copy Apples initial strategy. Take your guesses at the price: £600? $700? Maybe they are doing the complete oppisite and wish to take another huge loss for mind/market share.
It will be in the extremes in any case.

Wonder what this bit means though:


Carriers getting app revenue, or something else entirely?
Ofcourse they doing an Apple. It worked for Apple to have higher price and start hype of something. And people will be stupid enought to buy it. It has happened before.. MANY times...

Lumiaman 2012-07-23 17:08
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch-hitter (Post 1241754)
I got my figures from the financial statements published on NOKIA's own web site.

I'm really not too interested in: 'TA said this but previously TA had said that'... yawn :rolleyes:
Have you heard of creative accounting :). I wouldnt believe everything I read.

switch-hitter 2012-07-23 17:11
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1241747)
The point is that we really don't know what was going on behind the curtains, and what numbers they truly had, read and acted upon.
Oh no, not the magic-moonbeam-data argument again.

If Elop had any of that he would've shared it with the world by now.

mikecomputing 2012-07-23 17:12
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1241413)
Android may not be fully open but lets not go too far and suggest that it faces the same restrictions as WP. WP cannot even sideload apps and any homebrew is locked as a result meaning you have to pay $99 a year to develop your own apps on it, even for personal use.
Yes, but thats not an argument for endusers. Endusers doesnt give a **** as long there is apps. And the company is hyped they buy theyr products.

So even if WP is crap people MAY buy it. But question still remains if Nokia will win on the deal. Because I am sure samsung and other will leave Google in the longer run especially if Google continues to shooting itself in the foot buy selling Nexus too lowpriced. That may piss samsung and others of and they will go back to Microshit WP/W8 instead. Wish also will hurt stupid Nokia ofcourse...

RFS-81 2012-07-23 19:23
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1241648)
It could very well be that limiaman think that WP is the greatest of the greatest, but you cannot imply that from what he said. So why do you?
All I'm saying his praising seems way overblown looking at the track record of the platform. The only reason it exists today is that MS could afford to pour money in it though it never produced any returns. Be it any other firm (with less money to spend), it would have been scrapped and forgotten ages ago, the firm bankcrupted.

Cue 2012-07-23 21:21
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1241748)
Hmmm. Exactly what was so difficult to understand in that blog entry? It all makes perfect sense to me. Tomy is deranged, and increasingly so as time passes. I wonder what he says in 1 year :D But, he is not stupid, far from it, only anti Elop to the point of insanity.

Meanwhile, stock is rising in NY :D Helsinki did a recover :D
I already made it clear, but I'll repeat it for you. Being concise is a gift some people have and they use it to make a clear point. He did not make clear what exactly was contradictory in the texts, he repeated verbatim everything that was posted, even the largely irrelevant parts. Asyndetic thinking is not good for making a point and that post was full of it.

That blog post is very poorly written and structured, it does itself no favours in getting a point across, making it difficult to follow the writers thought process. I do not care for the poorly written English either, just that it be better than a verbose copy of everything said in a blog with something akin to "do you see it? the guys an idiot" appended inbetween. Spare me with the "makes perfect sense", "what's so hard" nonsense. Not that I care about what Tomi said or did but if you you wish to write in a more concise, better structured manner where the contradiction or disagreement lays with the author then I'll gladly read it too.

Cue 2012-07-23 21:29
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1241747)
The point is that we really don't know what was going on behind the curtains, and what numbers they truly had, read and acted upon. I suspect that the numbers were bad, and board approved Elop's burning platform. In retrospect, the burning platform letter was stupid, but he was following 101 business school class to align everyone in new direction, by telling the people where they were going. We can be armchair quarterbacks here, but we dont have all the info that made the board hire Elop and give him permission to burn the platform.
that's not what I read in that link at all. From what I gathered, it was trying to make some kind of point about a contradiction in somebody elses blog post, referring to the direction that sales numbers and revenue were going.

Cue 2012-07-23 21:37
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1241759)
Yes, but thats not an argument for endusers. Endusers doesnt give a **** as long there is apps. And the company is hyped they buy theyr products.

So even if WP is crap people MAY buy it. But question still remains if Nokia will win on the deal. Because I am sure samsung and other will leave Google in the longer run especially if Google continues to shooting itself in the foot buy selling Nexus too lowpriced. That may piss samsung and others of and they will go back to Microshit WP/W8 instead. Wish also will hurt stupid Nokia ofcourse...
I guess it doesn't if you don't want an open platform and I'm not about to argue that the mass market does because I agree that they don't, but I have to ask, why did you link to Akademy and claim it's no more open than "microshit (sic)"?

mikecomputing 2012-07-23 22:32
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1241890)
I guess it doesn't if you don't want an open platform and I'm not about to argue that the mass market does because I agree that they don't, but I have to ask, why did you link to Akademy and claim it's no more open than "microshit (sic)"?
because google depends on hwmanufactors make drivers for android. So stop this bullish about android is free or open. It is not. They depend on hwmanufactors as much as microshit.

actually the more intrests in android the more it hurts other embedded linuxdist. Because the bigger android gets the less intrest to make drivers for x11/wayland. Thats why i linked to vivaldi article. Btw vivaldi is what you can call freedom NOT android...

but again this is not what mainstream cares about. Most people vuys what other has or what is hyped. Thats why i think wp MAY comeback with alot of marketting ********. And there already is some brainwatched wp fanboys some already in this forum it seems;)

SamGan 2012-07-24 02:25
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1241748)
Meanwhile, stock is rising in NY :D Helsinki did a recover :D
As you keep saying the stock market doesn't matter when Nokia's share was going down why announce with a double big smiley when the share rise? Could it be you don't believe the "wisdom" you keep trying to push down our throats?

specc 2012-07-24 03:41
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGan (Post 1241964)
As you keep saying the stock market doesn't matter when Nokia's share was going down why announce with a double big smiley when the share rise? Could it be you don't believe the "wisdom" you keep trying to push down our throats?
How old are you exactly? I don't, but you do. 7% up :D Now, be happy!

SamGan 2012-07-24 04:27
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1241980)
How old are you exactly? I don't, but you do. 7% up :D Now, be happy!
What is the relevance of my age here? Keep trolling!

specc 2012-07-24 04:32
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1241881)
I already made it clear, but I'll repeat it for you. Being concise is a gift some people have and they use it to make a clear point. He did not make clear what exactly was contradictory in the texts, he repeated verbatim everything that was posted, even the largely irrelevant parts. Asyndetic thinking is not good for making a point and that post was full of it.

That blog post is very poorly written and structured, it does itself no favours in getting a point across, making it difficult to follow the writers thought process. I do not care for the poorly written English either, just that it be better than a verbose copy of everything said in a blog with something akin to "do you see it? the guys an idiot" appended inbetween. Spare me with the "makes perfect sense", "what's so hard" nonsense. Not that I care about what Tomi said or did but if you you wish to write in a more concise, better structured manner where the contradiction or disagreement lays with the author then I'll gladly read it too.
LOL :D So you "refuse" to understand the article because you don't like the English (or non-English). Obviously the author wants to give Tomi a kick in the rear by feeding him his own dog food. At the same time he get his own point across rather fluently, because Tomi has already done the job.

Tomi has become poisoned by hatred to a degree that he cannot think straight any more. Everything wrong with Nokia is Elop's fault according to Tomi, and it doesn't matter to him that his own earlier analysis shows that Elop is not to blame. Nokia was falling off the cliff long before Elop came aboard. Tomi knows this, but because Elop=Micro$hit=big bad evil, he let his feeling overrule. This way he has guarded himself. If Nokia survives, it will be due to the evil empire MS and the mole Elop. They will make it through sheer evilness (and tons of money). If Nokia dies, it's also all Elop's fault. There is some logic in there (obviously Elop being the CEO is responsible for a whole lot about the success or downfall of Nokia's survival maneuver), but it's the logic of a madman.

specc 2012-07-24 04:36
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGan (Post 1241992)
What is the relevance of my age here?
None, but it helps understand why you are trolling the way you do.

specc 2012-07-24 04:59
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1241755)
Ofcourse they doing an Apple. It worked for Apple to have higher price and start hype of something. And people will be stupid enought to buy it. It has happened before.. MANY times...
As I understand it they are simply letting the operators in on the profit of the sale of each phone. Not sure I like the smell of that though.

specc 2012-07-24 05:17
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1241913)
Thats why i think wp MAY comeback with alot of marketting ********.
Business is business. Without marketing (and lots of it) WP/Nokia has no chance.

gerbick 2012-07-24 05:26
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1242015)
Business is business. Without marketing (and lots of it) WP/Nokia has no chance.
There is marketing and there is effective marketing. No amount of marketing budget has boosted WP7's share.

specc 2012-07-24 06:21
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1242018)
There is marketing and there is effective marketing. No amount of marketing budget has boosted WP7's share.
The market share of WP in Europe is 2-30%, with great variations around the continent. Finland is the highest (and by some develish mechanism your or not wrong suggesting that marketing has not boosted the share there, it is due to loyal Finns). Elsewhere marketing has definitely boosted the share from nothing to something. 6 M Lumias.

volt 2012-07-24 06:32
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
2-30%?

Straight out lies.

WP's biggest market share is in Finland, where it's 8%. In Europe as a whole, it's 1.25%.

Source: statcounter.

specc 2012-07-24 06:38
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volt (Post 1242040)

Source: statcounter.
LOL :D since when did statcounter count market share of sold units?


This is market share: http://wmpoweruser.com/finnish-carri...share-in-june/

gerbick 2012-07-24 06:41
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1242039)
The market share of WP in Europe is 2-30%, with great variations around the continent. Finland is the highest (and by some develish mechanism your or not wrong suggesting that marketing has not boosted the share there, it is due to loyal Finns). Elsewhere marketing has definitely boosted the share from nothing to something. 6 M Lumias.
Total percentage is less than 2%. That's what counts. 2% in total man.

30% where? Izmadeupkhstan?

specc 2012-07-24 06:56
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Why, why why are you all just a bunch of Nokia/MS haters to the point of lunacy :D Nevermind that.

Lets look at statcounter. It's rather fun. Statcounter counts hits. It does not count share of sold units. Market share are sold units in a month or Q or whatever. So statcounter gives a rough representation or indication of the total out there. The total Symbian devices, the total iOS devices and so on.

The market share of Lumia (WP) in Finland is 30% roughly Q2 2012. Statcounter shows 8%, which indicates 8% of total users have Lumia. This sounds reasonable.

In Europe in total statcounter shows 1.36% WP. Then we multiply this with 3.7 (the Finnish ratio) and we get 5.1%. So, the market share in Europe for WP is 5.1% or somewhere in the neighbourhood for Q1/Q2 2012.

gerbick 2012-07-24 07:28
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1242050)
Why, why why are you all just a bunch of Nokia/MS haters to the point of lunacy
I love the unofficial numbers and leap of faith you just exhibited. Instead of one unofficial source, can you give me a true source for the sales? Like... Microsoft perhaps?

And I'm not a MS hater. Bought, used, liked the Lumia 900. Switched back to the N9 because I can - well that and I need an unlocked phone for an upcoming trip this week.

Cue 2012-07-24 08:54
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1241996)
LOL :D So you "refuse" to understand the article because you don't like the English (or non-English).
Quote:
I do not care for the poorly written English either, just that it be better than a verbose copy of everything said in a blog with something akin to "do you see it? the guys an idiot" appended inbetween.
Clearly you didn't understand me yet you somehow think you "understand" the blog. The only way you do is that the jist of it is trying to counter Tomi's claims so you are confusing your agreement with understanding. Replying with what basically amounts to "Tomi can't think straight because he hates Evil Elop" is no better than the claim of a contradiction in the article that I picked up already in the blog, with an added "because he hates Elop" that is not even mentioned yet alone implied in that poorly put together piece.

Quote:
Lets look at statcounter. It's rather fun. Statcounter counts hits. It does not count share of sold units. Market share are sold units in a month or Q or whatever. So statcounter gives a rough representation or indication of the total out there. The total Symbian devices, the total iOS devices and so on.
Same can be said for units shipped but you seem to have no problem blurring the line there by claiming them as sold. Then, if that wasn't enough, refering to a non-cumulative sales market-share of one carrier for the month of June as an indication and counter-argument of its cumulative market share or active devices in the wild.

I don't even know why I bother with you. Maybe it's because you're a persistent troll and I fear somebody may actually believe your BS.

volt 2012-07-24 09:07
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Why not multiply up by pi on top of that.

This is too dumb, I don't care to discuss any more with someone who just makes up stuff on the fly to troll troll trollolololol.


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