Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

You are right, Google paid exorbitant price for Motorola. Everyone acknowledges it was a waste of money

http://www.businessinsider.com/motor...-market-2013-7

NOKIA may have been a better purchase, but I dont think that Finns were looking to sell in 2010. I think they were looking to add value to the worthless Symbian and dead Maemo. They chose Windows for two reasons: differentiate, and make MS dependent on them, so if worst came to worst, they could count on selling to MS for a good price as MS had not other significant manufacturer but NOKIA. Very clever I would say.

OK. Lets take Android love scenario. No differentiation. competing with Samsung and company, you fail, nobody will want you and nobody will buy you. If you succeed, it will still be low margins as you are cut throating with Samsung and other Asian companies. So Android would produce no buyer and would likely not give you much profits.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

hahahahahahahahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaahhahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

No, Nokia wasn't selling in 2010. If they were, they'd be worth more than Motorola. After years of dealing with Microsoft only, they were quite worthless because they didn't have any operating system(s) of their own, they didn't have a distribution channel of their own any more, they didn't have the same marketshare and mindshare as before, and ultimately, they weren't in the same position as before.

But even if Nokia were to sell to Google and not Microsoft, they would have been worth more than Motorola in 2013 than $7 Billion dollars based on brand strength (weakened), brand position (weakened) and it would be seen as a bargain at $7 Billion, which honestly I think - and I'm quick to point out how the Nokia Board screwed themselves) is an under-evaluation. And that's what I say about a company that's pissed me off more times than I can count.

Don't forget that Symbian had more share in 2010 than Windows does in 2013. So... are you saying that WP8 is more worthless than Symbian? Think about it.

Not clever enough. It sank their stock prices even further. WP was just a thin bandaid on a very injured Nokia. It didn't stop the bleeding, just slowed it down somewhat.

You're arguing that Android would have been the lesser way. I disagree, Nokia could have handled multiple OS's easily. They had in the past. So why not do it with more modern ones in the future? Take Android, skin it, make it your own. Worked for Samsung. And they've differentiated themselves quite well.

I won't argue that point though. It's not in my best interests since it didn't happen. I can talk about valuation a bit more though; because of the factors that are known - patent portfolio, programming acumen, marketing and mindshare that Nokia still commanded in 2010. And I'll even say this - Maemo/MeeGo was not in their best interests.

Nokia never knew what to do with Maemo or MeeGo. So Android + WP could have been their future. Not Symbian. Not MeeGo. MeeGo should have been adopted by other companies - which, is what Jolla did years later.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Man, you are really phuckin' stupid.

Ah hahahaha

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Let us see... I think you were talking about Nokia mobile division being worthless and all in2010, and my claim was that the mobile division was healthy. Let us not changing the channel.....So let us look at the number, shall we look at the company's official sale numbers, in million of units

yr 2009 yr 2010
Nokia 67.8 100.3
Apple 25.1 47.5

Just for kicks, the sale # for Apple was also shown as well:)
So, unless Nokia was selling at a lost for ALL their units, then I guess the Nokia evaluation at 2010 could be not too bad. Hey, if they could make $2 profit per sale unit, than it would work out to be $200M profit on the year -- not too bad in terms of actual $.

Now, unless the management at Nokia were really really really bad:), it would be very hard for Nokia to sell ZERO number of unit and to make a LOSS in next year. So, from where I sit(plus wearing a rose coloured glasses also helps), In 2010, Nokia mobile were not worthless as you claimed; or it was in such an unhealthy state that a 180 degree turn of business direction was needed.

If Nokia is still worth a few $B dollars now to MS given their current performance(isn't the year to date sale # ending Sept 2013 was below 5M units?), then surely Nokia mobile in 2010 timeframe would have worth a LOT more than ZERO(plus, they already have had a nice set of tech patents and all in 2010 - which should also count for some $$$ if they were in talk for selling the unit at all)

I welcome you to show the numbers/results to counter my view.

May be Mr. Elop is your hero, the nice turn-around-artist in your book; but me think - he did a poor job and tanked the company big time. The really sad things are that lot of families, lives and were damaged by his actions and that was hameful.

Cheers

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Hence lies the trick of management. They knew they lost the battle, that this was the last year where they pushed their inferior devices at cutthroat prices, and it looks great, like that model marriage that you then read in the papers where the husband took an axe and decapitated his wife. OPK wanted to go on the high, but they all new, that the battle was lost.

So the problem for people like you, is that you dont understand that despite the great numbers (hell BB had them too, should I pull those also?), the pre-ELOP nokia was dead man walking. Everyone was abandoning Symbian. It looks like OPK went on the high note, while it belied his incompetence to set a new course for NOKIA.

YOu can inhale this numbers, let them soothe your belief that somehow Elop destroyed NOKIA, that somehow Finns hired the butcher and let him kill the whole of Finland, without a single Finn raising a hand to stop him (sounds like Finns are then very impotent under that scenario). But the beauty of the human brain is to dig underneath the numbers and to realize that pre-Elop NOKIA was dead. Very dead. So dead, that they brought in Elop to set a new course. If you dont see this, you will lose on investments, you will lose when you lead, and you are a loser.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I am a simple guy. All I know is this: a single digit number, says 5 is much less than 100. As in most things in life, more is better. So, under Mr Elop's leadership, Nokia latest sale were under 10M; Nokia sale in 2009-2010 were 100M. So, on sale # alone, Elop is not doing too hot.

So, let me think... Nokia went from being able to sell 100M units to below 10M, and other Android phone(say Samsung) went from 10M(my guess) to 90M(saw this # somewhere). if you can call Nokia's result is a improvement/a turn-around, Wow...what a concept,.

If Nokia was very dead before Elop, then do I have to believe that Nokia is MUCH better now because they are having 10x less sale and putting themself up for sale is a good thing.

By the way, it seems that you like to change the channel again by talking about BB's numbers. If you believe Nokia under Elop is doing better than before Mr. Elop's management? Then I guess you are wearing a much better rose-colored lens than I. Well, it is a 'free' internet :); you are entitled to what you think.

Cheers,

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I can see why you are simple. You are right, you just look at the numbers. Very unexamined life.

Navigation devices and cameras?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

The answer may lie here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2...evices_whynot/

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Starting tomorrow, I will buy my bread exclusively from Warburtons.
That will make Warburtons depend on me.

Gad, am I glad you are not my business adviser.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Its interesting, that pro-Symbian forces still thrive at Maemo. Its like the militias in Utah, Idaho and few other states, still glorifying the US past, and unaccepting of diversity and inevitability of change.....wake up guys, NOKIA was simply run over by superior forces. NOTHING would have changed the outcome, NOTHING. Blackberry is in the same boat, NOTHING, I mean NOTHING, can help blackberry either. They fell behind, they were content, fat, rich and non competitive. The now Jolla members were just a bunch of lazy coders who couldnt deliver.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I feel sorry for you... it remains me of one of those sayings: if you do not have the facts, pound the table. Take some rest and stop pounding the table.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Facts are simple. symbian died. The numbers are gone. Good riddance.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Here are some numbers chump:


http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5f205518.jpg

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

and I read that as your epitaph and breathed a sigh of relief.

rgds

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Well, let us see.

Your graph appears to be historical stock price trend between Sept 2003 to Sept 2013. If your point is about the up and down of the stock price; then sure Nokia current price is much lower than when it was peaking at $40 in mid 2007. So let me extend that thinking and may be I could conclude this: in 2007, Nokia was selling all this dump phones and the stock price was $40; in 2013, Nokia is selling all these wonderful WP phones and yet the stock price is under $10 -- what the f#$k, Wait a minute, I can get a bigger meal with $40 than $10...Oh my GOD, let us go back to sell more dump phones instead. :)

But... I guess that is NOT want you want to show or want people to conclude, isn't it?

So, just throwing a graph out without context and detail would cause a lot of confusion -- especially for simple guy like me.

You point was that nobody wanted Symbian, and the Nokia mobile was worthless before Mr. Elop's leadership. Your graph does NOT show that. If it were the case, shouldn't the graph show sharp decline of stock price toward of $0.0 by mid-2010 and then an upward trend once Mr. Elop has taken over.

We all know that by late 2011, under Elop's direction, Nokia was selling nothing but WP phones; and the overall stock price still trending downward; so using the same logic as you would have used(i.e. low stock price reflects the fact that less people wanting the product), then would it also means that Nobody wants WP either for all these years? But I have a warm and fuzzy feeling that you don't want me or other to conclude that either, isn't it?

As I noted before, it is a free country/or internet(as everyone says); you are entitled to what you want to write and say. But if you want to prove your points, I welcome you to put up the numbers. Again, please do not pound the table, I begin to feel sorry for the table now.

Cheers,

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Let me tell you what the graph shows. It shows that despite "great" Symbian sales, the most rapid decline in NOKIA stocks occurred under OPK, the king of Symbian. Not only that, but the decline continued to occur despite great symbian numbers that you posted, and that the slope of decline did not change much with Elop, which tells you that Elop did not worsen the decline of the stock, it was freefalling prior to him.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Wow, I love these management excuse - too bad I couldn't try that with my line of work. I wonder what DID Mr. Elop tell the borard before He was named the CEO?. May be he said: (1) well guys, I am only one guy in this sinking vessel, so I don't have hope to turn this things around. I can try but good luck. OR (2). I am going to turn this thing around like no tomorrow -- just watch me. We will be swimming in cash, and be the KINGS of the world.

I think he mostly like said something like (2) and mostly saying something about he will fix it. So if the stock WERE really in freefall and his job were to fix it; then Mr. Elop FAILED - full stop.

By the way, you tried to change the channel again:). The point was whether NOBODY wanted these "dump" Symbian phones in 2010 and whether the Nokia mobile was worthless in 2010 as you claimed. May be you have trouble keeping up the timeline...no?

By the way, if NOBODY wanted the Symbian dump phones, how come Nokia had NON-zero sale figures for phones between late 2009 to early 2011. What were they selling? I really want to know how they achieve a market stock in $10-15; since they were selling things that NOBODY wanted.

Cheers,

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

It is gone to ZERO. There are ZERO symbian phones now. And these dumb phones were sold to countries that couldnt afford or didnt see android and ios yet...just a matter of time when those markets saw the competition, and cheap android pretty much obliterated any vestige of touchscreen symbian......

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

These last few exchanges are ignoring - purposefully or not - that you're talking about 2007-2010. Back when there was no WP7/WP8 and the move from Symbian and its internal politics and overfunding were already were on the way, but not yet concrete. You're both also overlooking that Nokia, while once huge, was not gaining as much per year in regards to the then faster growth of the market.

Simply stated, Nokia kept growing, but not at the accelerated rates that iOS and Android enjoyed thus their decline in marketshare. Jumping to the lesser known/utilized mobile OS Windows Phone 7 and later WP8 didn't really help in regards to growth or marketshare. It's arguable that it dug them deeper into the situation they're now situated in - handset division sold to Microsoft for instance.

But instead, using nonsensical graphs and management arguments about something but not including everything - business is a multi-faceted endeavor and picking and choosing the pieces that support your stance is easy to do; but doesn't make it right.

Nokia was slow to turn from older Symbian/non-touch phones that featured what folks wanted on the newer touch phones and expectations. Sure, you can point to many successful Nokia products, like the N95, but folks will also remember out of memory errors. I vowed to never own a Symbian phone and that was mostly because of the fact that I just didn't like the OS. I've owned iPhones, Android phones, the N9, N900, and even a Lumia 900 and now a BB10 Z10. But in the end of the day, never a Symbian phone.

Back to my point; you guys are overlooking the overarching trends of smartphone growth and Nokia's lack of grabbing that new market with their offerings. They did well in other areas, but not well enough to continue their prior 2007 growth.

Add that to your argument, I'd consider it a well-rounded discussion instead of this tit-for-tat round of exchanges.

Just my honest opinion... carry on.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Hey Gerb, I agree with what you said. No disagreements. What I disagree is to blame ELOP as the sole cause of Nokia failure. The point of the graph is to show that Nokia lost shareholders confidence as it's price kept sliding downwards despite fanboys touting large numbers. Everyone knew that Symbian was dead man walking.

Same happened to BB, even they changed their management with little success. Tells you what happens when you lose a step in this highly competitive market.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

His strategy turned gradual decline into a high velocity nose dive, as anybody with any intelligence knew it would.


Elop's strategy turned NOKIA into a dead man walking. Both smartphones and feature phones killed, each with their own m0ronic strategy that was inevitably doomed to fail.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I beg to disagree. The mobile division is well and alive, perhaps under a different flag. Doing much better than Blackberry.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

The next update to BB10 will enable it to run Android apps without the conversion process and they will be hardware accelerated too.

As the personal side and corporate side of BB10 are kept separate BlackBerrys will probably then be better for running Android apps than Androids are.

So that'll be one big roadblock out of the way.

Another issue was price but in the US you can now get one free on contract with Verizon

I hope BB can shrink and survive rather than die.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Writing this day down... no, seriously. I am.

No, Symbian was still selling, it just wasn't growing as fast as the market had grown. There's a subtle difference and when Elop came out with that "burning platform" notice, it scuttled any sales of Symbian any further thus setting a downward trend and disabled any more growth and Nokia didn't have a full-blown strategy at that moment that was publicly known.

Simply stated, he committed an unprecedented Osborne Effect by killing one brand that was still selling (yet not growing in market share which in itself the market was growing) and then coming out with an unpopular mobile OS that meant Nokia had an uphill battle whereas it truly could have been avoided.

BB is a different story, but with similar ingredients. Bad management, bad decisions, bad delays and a misunderstanding of how the market was going to change. Those are the similar ingredients. BB thought their enterprise inroads would keep them ahead of most; it didn't. BB also thought that nobody wanted a touch screen; they were 100% wrong there. Nokia disregarded touch, but built it anyway. There's some other differences... but BB was just plain arrogant whereas Nokia was just plain disillusioned.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I'd say the biggest problem was the lack of a migration path from Symbian to WP. And the immaturity of the WP platform, of course.

It shows up the arrogance and hubris in Nokia management at that time, I think they honestly belived that public was going to eat up everything delivered to them, unquestioningly.


One difference between BB/Nokia strategies is that Nokia still had other legs to support it, like the network business. Over the years it usually has been so that one or other has been the supporting leg while the other rested.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Sad to see that now Nokia is vacating its old HQ building in Keilaniemi to pass it to Microsoft...
http://yle.fi/uutiset/microsoft_take...kia_hq/6946079
But perhaps it was a destiny, as the building was known since the Nokia golden years as the 'Powerpoint house'

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Yes, I heard that all the people who are Nokia will be moving to Karaportti campus which is the local NSN site, about 5km to northwest from Keilaniemi.

I guess mr. Elop gets to keep his current office in the Keilaniemi building. Also the Microsoft regional office employees in finland are moving to Keilaniemi. The view from the former Nokia Head Office is somewhat better than from the current MS office :)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Let's say that going WP was the right choice. Now convince me that announcing it one year before baving anything to show was worth it. And that not selling the N9 everywhere while there were still no Lumias was the right choice. And that not waiting to launch on WP8 directly was correct. And not allowing first-gen lumias to upgrade was sane (which could clearly be done, Wp8 on HD2 is a testament to that), and not bringing loved features like lpm earlier was ok, and marketing Lumias to teenagers alienating the traditional Nokia userbase was the correct course of action.

And many more... (europe vs US targeting, old hardware specs, abusing PureView name etc.)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

i am feeling bullish on Nokia stock. this baby will hit $40 in few years, like other good tech stocks. No reason why not. WP is getting a good name in USA and gaining traction. MS and NOKIA are together for a long run. I just bought some more at $7.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

The goal and effect of the announcement is debatable. In a large organization like NOKIA, the regular MBA school will teach you that you need to align everyone in the organization towards a new goal. Elop saw that in house software was not competitive, and his announcement was not unexpected. Every other company has dropped Symbian way before Elop announced it. He probably had internal sales figures that showed huge declines in China and India and an ominous trend downwards. He took a risk. You got to take a risk. He and the board (remember, he discussed everything with the board, these were NOT one man decisions) decided that this is a way to go, align everyone to one direction and forge a new path. His new job after that was to try and compete. NOKIA already lost way too many years wasting it on touchscreen Symbian, and in this biz, 6 months makes you obsolete. So he had incredible disadvantage moving forward with a new OS. Interestingly, they were considering Android at the end, whether this was a bluff to get MS to pay more, who knows. NOKIA is an example of a company that could not adapt to current market conditions fast enough. Nothing to do with Elop, all had to do with antecedent factors that held NOKIA in the first place.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I certainly hope so, but I believe that we need to pull out of the current recession before that happens. That might be longet than a few years in happening.


You have misunderstood what has happened. WP might go up or it might go down, but luckily as of last tuesday that is not our concern any longer. MS goes it's own way and does what it does but is has nothing to do with Nokia any more.
Nokia is free to pursue other paths now, free of the NMP ballast.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Somehow I just felt these two comments really belonged together :D

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...J-2luWT9sFYs8E

This the both the crux of it and the whatever twinkle of light left for Nokia.

All the pus gathered during both OPK's and Elop's mismanagement can be drawn out. Maybe, just maybe, in a decade or so it will be seen like early 90's for Nokia, ie. near death before phoenix like rise. The rational part of me might disagree, but Nokia has reborn so many times during its history...hope.

At least they are free of OPK era bureacracy and Elop's Microsoft death grip now.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

You forget that I also live in the US. No, WP is not getting a good name in the US.

And besides, the US is a rather small and oddly controlled one at that (carrier control). WP is not favored here in the US; only the 41mp camera seems to be favored and that's a favorable feature, not the OS or anything to do with Microsoft.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

No one is saying that they are not free to pursue what they want. They are and that is why this stock has a good potential. Is there any other tech company like Nokia left in Europe? They will get a lot of support both in talent and contracts.

WP is doing better in US than blackberry....just saw Lumia 1520....definitely a buy for me.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

Dude, my phone that I drew on a napkin and threw away 4 years ago is doing better than BlackBerry at this moment. Not sure what your point is on that - because I have one? Meh, it was free. Send me a 1520 for free, I'll use that. Deal?

Anyway, besides continuing discussion the race for who's in last ad nauseum, Nokia is not doing better in the US. Their growth was everywhere other than the US - but going from 2.1% to 6.0% and higher is "growth"... but it's still way less than what Apple or Google has. In fact, it's (in some areas) less than what BlackBerry has. Congrats, WP is gaining what BlackBerry has lost. But not much more than that.

Race for last indeed.

Nokia stock has potential as long as they keep public what the non-Microsoft owned parts are doing and how they were the parts that kept Nokia afloat. It wasn't the handset division which effectively was only useful to Microsoft.

In fact, I'm still waiting to see who's going to come out with a Windows Phone 8 phone besides Nokia now. Nobody else has anything in a company that's still doing well. HTC, going downhill and the 8X can be found for very cheap unlocked. Samsung has Tizen and Android keeping them busy, so WP8 is probably not even going to be released. LG gave up on WP8. There are no more, so having Nokia being 90% of that platform sales isn't really anything special.

It's like saying that 90% of your **** floats when 10% doesn't. It's still ****.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

I think you are looking short term. Yes, IOS and android dominate. No doubt about it. There is still money to be made as a third producer and MS, does have money , soon new leadership and they do have an ecosystem. Nokia is likely to benefit from it if it succeeds. It will. WP has limitations, but its close to idiot proof like IOS and will gather steam. Nokia will be a beneficiary too. Will top 40 in 5 years, if willing to wait, not a bad investment.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 

They have money, but so far their mobile OS has been a money pit. And I'm thinking long term. Both Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 have not seen adoption rates that Microsoft would have anticipated just a scant few years ago.

There's a decline in desktops, a very slight increase in smartphones and tablets and Microsoft has yet to figure out how to make both of those truly turnaround. Long term starts with long-reaching plans. Ballmer apparently had a vote of no-confidence and thus, his plans are now gone.

Disagree. Nokia is helpful to Microsoft due to being the premier and seemingly soon-to-be only manufacturer of Windows Phone 8 phones. New leadership might do what Elop did at Nokia, strike down all that was before it, reverse some of the stuff going on now, spin off divisions that aren't pulling their weight and drop past commitments.

Elop's rumored talks of spinning off Xbox and Bing are just a snowflake on the iceberg. Let's see what happens. People inside of Microsoft that I know are hearing weirder rumors than that.

Let's just say my wish for desktop/server OS/UI, tablet OS/UI, mobile OS/UI might happen the way I truly thought it should have since Windows Vista. No more desktop mode for Surface... please be true.

I sold my Microsoft stock years ago; never saw fit to re-invest. I lived through the golden years, put aside a nice bit of money, rode with Microsoft for almost a decade. Picked up Apple in 1999, riding with them for the last 14 years. Doing well. Nokia, I bought in, sold 11% above what I bought in at, walked away never to repeat it either.

Missed out on Google though. Too expensive to start, too expensive to get in now. Microsoft is not a safe long bet at all. Decline in too many areas - servers, desktop and tablets and mobile. Naw, I think you're huffing glue thinking otherwise...