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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
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-   -   Maemo Morality (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50107)

Dak 2010-04-15 19:07
Re: Maemo Morality
 
@festivalnut & mmurfin87 - you are both articulating the classic justification for "good samaritan" laws (there's an episode of Seinfeld about that).

The idea that inaction confers responsibility just as action does.

This flies in the face of one of the most important underpinnings of our concept of justice - mens rea.

This is why such laws are routinely struck down as being immoral, among other reasons.

The "good samaritan" concept is typically championed by those of a 'collectivist' persuasion, under the banner of 'social justice' - where the essential dignity of individual humanity is degraded into a statistical function, and people are no more than a herd to be administered with a view to balancing such a function so that an elitist societal ideal can be achieved.

Choose your bedfellows wisely ;)

festivalnut 2010-04-15 19:09
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by javicq (Post 612412)
Frankly, I find "not being a murderer" a far more reasonable and desirable goal than "being a savior".



In some way yes. But not as much as if you actively tried to affect the outcome of the situation. I know that the thought "I actively killed a man" would haunt me for life. "I refused to kill a man to save other 5 that would have died anyway if I wasn't there", not so much.
yes i definately find your reasoning behind it more valid (not that anyones reasons are not valid but you know what i mean!) and more what the original question is trying to evoke on a moral level. yet in this instance you are sacrificing the 4 extra lives based on semantics and how you will personally feel about it later. is that the morally right thing to do?

javicq 2010-04-15 19:09
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopwith (Post 612415)
There are a few million "reasonable" people behind every dictator...
Funny you say that, beacuse dictators tend to be more of the "savior" than the "not murderer" type...

Dak 2010-04-15 19:12
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopwith (Post 612415)
There are a few million "reasonable" people behind every dictator...
Godwin by allusion! Quite an achievement, sir!

festivalnut 2010-04-15 19:16
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dak (Post 612423)
Godwin by allusion! Quite an achievement, sir!
i'm sure i already called godwin earlier in this thread! 2 counts by page 5? perhaps the maemo community should just abandon philosophy!

festivalnut 2010-04-15 19:19
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dak (Post 612417)
@festivalnut & mmurfin87 - you are both articulating the classic justification for "good samaritan" laws (there's an episode of Seinfeld about that).

The idea that inaction confers responsibility just as action does.

This flies in the face of one of the most important underpinnings of our concept of justice - mens rea.

This is why such laws are routinely struck down as being immoral, among other reasons.

The "good samaritan" concept is typically championed by those of a 'collectivist' persuasion, under the banner of 'social justice' - where the essential dignity of individual humanity is degraded into a statistical function, and people are no more than a herd to be administered with a view to balancing such a function so that an elitist societal ideal can be achieved.

Choose your bedfellows wisely ;)
sorry i didn't know i wanted to bring about an elitist societal ideal! wouldn't valuing one life over five be more of a elitist thing to do?

Dak 2010-04-15 19:20
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by festivalnut (Post 612430)
i'm sure i already called godwin earlier in this thread!
Merely mentioning the name "Hitler" doesn't count. It is the comparison of Hitler/Nazism to some aspect of a debate in order to fallaciously drag down anothers' argument, that is at the heart of Godwin's Law.

I needn't have mentioned Hitler, but it seemed expedient to emphasize the actual point that the people you save may not be very good people, and ultimately cause more harm.

Dak 2010-04-15 19:23
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by festivalnut (Post 612435)
sorry i didn't know i wanted to bring about an elitist societal ideal! wouldn't valuing one life over five be more of a elitist thing to do?
That would imply I have some measure for evaluating their lives. I don't, and never claimed to. Therefore I cannot consciously choose to end any life over any other life. My rational participation in this scenario is not possible.

However, as I mentioned originally, if my child/wife was among the 5, then I do have a rational basis for evaluating lives - namely that the life of my child/wife is infinitely more valuable to me than any of the other lives, and I will act to preserve it.

Thesandlord 2010-04-15 19:24
Re: Maemo Morality
 
These tests are quite silly. If something like this ever happens in my life I would just flip a coin...

mrojas 2010-04-15 19:25
Re: Maemo Morality
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkwatts (Post 612030)
from mylot.com

I was taking a philosophy class and our teacher asked us these three scenarios.

1: You are standing by the switch near a train track. The train is coming and the brakes are broken. The train is headed on a path where it will run over five people who are tied to the tracks, killing them. If you pull the switch, the train will switch direction and go on a track where it will kill 1 person who is tied to the tracks, but if you don't pull it he will be safe. You have no time to untie anyone. What do you do?
Will it Blend? That is the question.

Quote:
2: You are standing on a bridge over a train track. The train is coming, the brakes are broken, and there are 5 people tied to the tracks. There is a fat man on the bridge. This man is fat enough that if you pushed him, he would stop the train from running over the 5 people, but he would be killed. Do you push him?
I don't believe in no-win scenarios. /bites apple

Quote:
3: Same situation as #2, but the fat man is standing on a trapdoor. You are standing by a lever that will open the trapdoor, he will fall onto the tracks, stop the train from running over the five people, and be killed. Do you pull it?

What would you do?
http://lee.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/33.jpg


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