Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Bundyo: I don't think Cortex is Dual Core? It has two execution pipelines, so that it can process two instructions per clock cycle. It doesn't make it dual core...

EDIT: More info:
http://www.arm.com/products/CPUs/ARM_Cortex-A8.html
http://www.arm.com/rximages/10541.gif

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Right, they sell something they don't want you to use. And, for what reason?

I bet they will get sued sooner or later. It is ******** to limit what kind of device a user is using. FUPs are also ********, and so is 'X times the average user uses' because they are vague contracts. Just state the user is allowed to burn X GB, or unlimited. Simple and clear.

If they heavily filter they abuse their power, possibly net neutrality, and perhaps even unfair competition. In any case you can then use SSH/VPN/IPsec + SIP or HTTPS + SIP (yes, this exists).

If you use T-Mobile NL's unlimited data plan you can e.g. use 10 GB and they'll contact you about it, but won't terminate the contract, even if you do this regularly (I know someone who does this).

I read 3G has a round-trip of 150 ms. Might be too much for some people.

EDIT: If you're a lot outside of the country which your 3G contract covers consider to buy a (temporary) subscription to e.g. iPASS. This has the potention to lower your variable fees a lot. Especially useful if you're self-employed and travel a lot.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I stand corrected... :)

This part got me thinking:

Now imagine Mozilla's new JIT JS compiler accelerated with that... ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Ok, I just read through 21 pages and not one mention of the thing that bothers me the most. Not that they're thinking of including a cellular radio, but the FLAVOR. Why HSPA (which I don't have in my area)? Why not EVDO (which I do)? Was the reasoning behind that choice mentioned at all?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

WTH is that? :D

Plausible answer: because most people do have HS*PA in their area. Its much better deployed than EVDO (and WiMAX).

Compare..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...vice_providers

..with..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...HSDPA_networks
..and..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...WiMAX_networks

(Latter is relevant for N810WE)

Source

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Why not EVDO? Because CDMA is a dying standard. Because all of Europe, large parts of Asia and most Oceania countries use HSPA, but not EVDO. Without any data to back it up (too lazy for that right now to be honest), I'm sure that HSPA is accessible to at the very least ten times as many people as EVDO...

Also, Nokia has NO experience whatsoever with CDMA/EVDO, since they've left this market quite a while ago.

And CDMA also means that it is much harder to get network access without the carriers consent, since there is no such thing as a SIM card...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Bah, I only care about what I can use, not what everyone ELSE can use. What matters that all of Singapore has HSPA access. I don't.

BUT, I get your meaning. ;)

Still, it's something that I have to examine closely. I don't have all that much money to throw around on features I can't use, so to be a viable upgrade, Nokia will really have to come around to the same price point as the n810...preferably less. :p

EDIT: And while CDMA may be dying, it's not dying anytime soon. If the Verizon/Alltel merger goes through, they'll be the largest single cell carrier in the U.S.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

BTW, you can buy credits to phone with Skype (and Gizmo, and ...) therefore you can reach other people who have a phone number. The standard is the old phone number system; not SIP. SIP is an open standard which builds upon it. So there is no vendor lock-in in the same sense as with IE4-7. The fact you can phone to other Skype users for free is pretty normal as there are then less data fees.

Your ISP pays a flat fee for the network you're using between you and them (or ISP owns the network), and local traffic between 2 users of same ISP doesn't cost anything more. You don't have to pay for the data on your LAN either, and on an IXP your ISP pays for the PoP which is not per volume but per its (max) speed (e.g. 10 gbit), and besides that a good ISP has good peering agreements (Comcast apparently doesn't have good peering agreements ;)).

This is also one of the reasons paying per MB should not be accepted by a customer. The 3G network is just connected to a backbone here and there (owned or rented by the ISP) which is then connected to a PoP probably at a IXP. If the 3G provider is also a DSL or cable provider they probably use this very network to transfer the data. No, what they are doing is getting back their high investment costs for 3G (ROI) which in essence is a logical and fair thing (early adopters get **** service, beta test, and pay twice :o) but the way they do it is not fair. However, because other 3G providers have the very same problem, and the licensed spectrum only has X licensors there is not much competition. Asking customer to pay for an IP range (even /32) is another example or bullocks, and RIPE has declared this illegal, yet European ISPs continue to abuse a shady loop-hole!!

Using good ol' POTS or GSM however, isn't free as in beer in most parts of the word. Now that we use Internet for communication its time to use Internet for voice communication as well. That this requires 3G from a multi-national corporation who apply earlier said tactics is unfortunate, but for now unavoidable, yet we can use their data plans for voice communication via the Internet leading to flat fee (or flatter fee), and potentially cutting costs compared to GSM or POTS. With N810WE and N9xx* Nokia is contributing to the way the game will be played next years, and I believe we should welcome their effort. Read between the lines. Nokia is more on our side than on the side of the telcos, and it suits their business: selling good hardware and selling service not based on bandwidth infrastructure. By allowing us to cut costs on these dreaded variable fees we have more money to save. Well, unless you're a casual 3G user, or 3G data plans are very expensive...

An OK basis to express yourself, but not a good basis for sympathy or empathy required for understanding other arguments, therefore not good for discussion.

However:

++ :)

It is being phased out, and 3G is much better covered. See the links in my previous post. If you compare to WiMAX (also a licensed spectrum), WiMAX is 1) on the rise 2) more 'small' network operators. To put an anology: the stock of WiMAX goes up, while CDMA goes down. WiMAX is good because it increases competition with other 3G providers, and because there is no upgrade path from older 3G to WiMAX, the big bold bad telcos aren't investing (much) in it yet because they already have 3G rolled out.

It appears to me that mostly Americans are unhappy with the HS*PA feature, but Americans will be able to use the N810WE, and probably earlier than the N900 is sold. The data plans for WiMAX will probably be attractive, especially compared to HS*PA. Like I said, WiMAX coverage is good for 3G price.

If you really want to use or keep using CDMA, and enough people do want this, then some corporation (e.g. Nokia) might start a product which supports this so this is potentially what your expression contributes to. But given above, I wouldn't count on this if I were you. If you really need CDMA now, better buy a phone and tether that with your NIT or other mobile device.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

You don't have to sign up for a long-term contract, if that is what you are getting at.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Yes, Xohm is PaYG.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

iirc, CDMA allows for a SIM like system, but its not required for CDMA to work, so most carriers that make use of CDMA dont bother with it.

btw, most of scandinavia is covered by a CDMA network, exclusively for data traffic.

i was accepted into their testing period, and the usb "modem" they sent over had a SIM slot under a hatch. but it had a bit of foam superglued inside...

could not get a connection while this was going on either, so i returned the kit and have had nothing to do with them since...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I like the idea of hspa because then you can use skype anywhere there are carrier hspa data networks. Very smart move by Nokia. I use pay as you go sim cards all over the world and they always have very cheap unlimited data plans with no contract but not cheap unlimited voice pay-as-you-go no contract plans.
Does anyone know if N900 will have two full sdhc card slots??

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Oh yeah, and the carriers will forbid you to use VOIP and IM with their networks, like they're already doing these days... :(

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

only in us and only with at&t. To be honest I really haven't had that problem abroad. Now I'm not on voip for hours on end. It works good. I just got back from China and I installed a dlink portable wireless in my hotel room and made quite a few skype calls with no problems. The best was Berlin they seem to have blanketed the city with wifi spots. Boingo was there but I used a local provider that charged me 6 euros a day and 15 euros for a full seven days of unlimited anywhere wireless data!

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Good to know (what you say refers to Sprint Xohm).

This differs per WiMAX provider though. The same is true for HS*PA, but usually requires a contract.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Yes, some forbid this in their contract (NOT all!), but its questionable whether this holds up in court. Its also questionable if (and how) they're blocking VoIP or are going to block VoIP. I foresee some nice forum & wiki pages about this subject. :)

As VoIP is on the rise, it will change the way we communicate by voice one way or another. The question isn't if. Its when.

Its friday night, your weapon is the N900, start the revolution! :D

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

i suspect that the reasoning for the pay pr traffic is that while your transfering data, your taking up (a) channel(s) capacity on the local cell/antenna.

remember, wireless networking have more in common with a hub then a switch...

much like how old school long distance calls would take up one of a limited number of long distance wires, and therefor the telcos would want you to keep the call short so that the wired got freed up for other callers. quick solution, make the caller pay by the talk time.

with current fibreoptics and packet switched networks however...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Heh. A Nokia employee just told us that the N810 has already received two major releases.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

heh, i guess i should allow karel to go "i told you so"...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Yup. Strong smell of 770 déjà-vu in this room...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Counting which internal test versions they used before the N810 was introduced with OS2008?

There was not one single major release after they started selling the N810.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

They should really just come right out and be straight with us, "We're breaking the promise, the N8x0 just can't handle all the cool stuff we're putting in Fremantle", instead of feeding us a ridiculous line of ******** like that.

Nokia employees have been very insistent that Diablo is not a major upgrade. Saying otherwise now is about as lame an excuse as they could give.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

...and to be honest:
I wouldn't even care that much as I did with the 770. If Freemantle includes all the things we know about so far, I wouldn't expect it to run on my N800. And, more important: Of course I wouldn't want them to reduce the cool feature set to achieve compatibility. So please do, break the promise and get some life into Maemo. (OK, maybe backport enhancements that fit into the current architecture... Maemo 4.2, 4.3, 4.4...)

(When they abandoned the 770, nobody understood why and we had solid proof that OS2007 *did* in fact run on a 770. That was a different situation.)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Rrrright... I think I'll side with GeneralAntilles' view on this, I don't own an N810 but I still think I have a good idea about how many major releases it got.. and it doesn't add up to two.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Basically at the moment it's unsure how much of Fremantle can work with the N8X0 - simply impossible to say one way or the other, so commitments any way wouldn't be honest.

It's part of the idea of the Alpha/Beta SDK process also to try to make as much work as possible. (As the previous hacker editions can show.)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Very much agreed.

I'm not so bothered by them breaking the promise—if the new hardware is that much better (which it is), and the software is really going to make use of it, then what can you do? Really, I'm much more bothered by them trying to feed us that line of ******** like we're a bunch of gullible idiots or something.

Which is perfectly fine by me, if it doesn't make sense to do it—don't. Just break the promise and apologize, but don't try to pretend Nokia already fulfilled their promise with Diablo. :)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

What could happen is that an intermediate device appears in early 2009 before Fremantle is ready. That would run another increment of OS2008 with a few goodies added. It would be labeled OS2009, thus counting as another major upgrade for the N8x9 platform and saving face.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Well, Nokia is getting profits on new hardware, not old. I feel more sorry for N810WE customers. It seems they'd buy a device which is soon unsupported. Frankly, I can't believe that is true...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Define unsupported.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Starting with offtopic imho, this is not any official Nokia statement: Hopefully this doesn't sound patronizing, but users should buy devices to match their current needs. If the N810WE does what you want it to do, then buy it. It already does a lot of things really nicely.

Don't buy it now for something it _might_ be able to do in the future. (Edit: Of course within a device like this there is the promise of being able to install applications, but it's not a promise that applies infinitely to the future, with future versions that target improved hardware.) The N810WE does not have omap3, so surely expecting features that require the performance of such a hardware isn't really realistic.

As far as for the promise, I don't honestly remember who originally made that promise and in what context. I do remember hearing it myself also, but secondhand. I'd agree that if eventually it would happen that Fremantle wouldn't be usable - within the technical limitations of that device - then it was a wrong promise. But to repeat myself, we don't know this yet, so I wouldn't start apologizing for something that perhaps might work really well with the Nx0 HW after all. :)

The upcoming months will tell more. And people can participate in the SDK process and help to make Fremantle work on the N8X0 hardware.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Once again the differences between the markets seem to shine through. There are millions of people who buy N-Series phones and then, 3-6 months later Nokia has released an updated version of software which is incompatible with the device or even hardware which is much better ( I just bought an N78, the N79 has already been announced and will probably ship within 6 months of the release of the N78). The E71 was released with S60 fp1 AFTER fp2 was already shipping on other devices.

@Allnameswereout : If you can do what the box advertises on the N810WE then even if an N900 comes out a month later that won't diminish the value of that N810WE.

Remember that as much as Nokia has been in this business for going on 3 to 4 years, and they talk about becoming an 'internet' company they are still primarily a phone manufacturer. In the phone world, phones are considered old after 4-6 months and end of lifed after 1.5 years. If they EOL the N810 and introduce a newer, faster more capable device decide if you want to buy it or just stick with the N810 which will probably receive some cursory upgrades for the next year at least.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

@mobiledivide: you know, but the tablet is not the phone. it's more like computer, that's why i expect better software upgradebility.

i've got n800 with most recent os and i see different problems, if most of them not so important. but browser could definately be better. i was not nervous, becouse i was waiting for promised upgrades. it seems they are gonna let me behind.

the fact is, i quite like my tablet. but if they forget n800/n810, just like they forgot n770, why should i believe that n900 won't be forgotten in a year or two? (especially if I won't buy n900 immidiately, because of money. i've bought n800, after n810 went out, I believed they will support n810 (therefor n800 too) at least for 2 years).

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I guess like Ragnar says I buy my devices on what they do for me now not in the future. Right now the utility I get out of my N810 is vastly superior to every other similarly sized/priced mobile device. Thats not going to change with the release of an N900 or Maemo5. I will still surf the internet, check my email, read ebooks, listen to internet radio and use VOIP to talk to my parents on another continent.

I like the idea of laptop speed and 3G so I will probably upgrade but that doesn't mean that the N810 becomes useless.
I have an N800 right now with Chinook, as a dedicated SIPphone/movie ticket purchase machine/recipe book/FM and internet radio player in my kitchen. Its the BEST kitchen device ever. I haven't even upgraded to Diablo since I see no need.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

It's amazing how true YMMV is. :D

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

the big diff between the nokia phones and the nokia tablets is the os.

symbian is not openly available for just about anyone (yet). linux is. so when one end up tying down linux to the whim of nokia, one start to understand the orthodoxy of RMS.

now the recently announced open driver for the wifi helps in some way. but there are still much of the tablets firmware thats under nokia control, and that will be hard to replace if one wanted a fully open maemo to maintain after nokia have pulled the plug on official support of the tablets.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

One good thing is that even if Nokia doesn't provide an N8x0 OS based on Maemo 5, some of the changes Nokia's making will make it easier to provide a mostly or completely open replacement OS for the old ones, ideally matching library versions to Maemo 5 to allow many Elephanta apps to run. The WLAN driver release is hugely major in this regard; as for other stuff, the X server may be a bit troublesome in bringing a full Maemo 5, as the video chain is expected to be completely different on the N9xx, but kdrive works, and some such hybrid seems very possible now.

A major question is whether such an OS should be Maemo based or Debian based, but that doesn't matter near as much as that it is more possible now.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

There are many more differences between Symbian and Linux besides the openness of the source code.

Depending on level of support I'd say lack of official backports for:
1) Security and reliability fixes.
2) Features.

There are many shades of grey between those. What is IE7, 1 or 2? A-GPS, 1 or 2?

I imagine a N810WE customer would feel bad knowing there is a N900HSPA, while she'd like to have bought a N900WE or N900HSPA with Maemo 5. It'd depend on many factors though such as but not limited to price as well as the timeline between the releases. IOW, releasing the N810WE before the announcements wih details about N900 and Maemo 5 would have been smarter, business-wise.

Consider I bought a N95 in july. In august I hear about the N96 release. Now, once the N96 is released, the N95 will drop in price because of a new product in this series. This is another reason why a customer could feel bad (price example). However, the good news is that many new features for N96 (software-wise) have (or will) see light in the various N95 versions.

OTOH, new doesn't mean better, and when Maemo 5 comes out there will be rough edges, too. Also, a community supported OS2008HE might cut it for some users.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

How about just fixing the N8x0 battery run down problem related to the wireless being left in full power mode? I'm really fine with no more feature updates from Nokia but I will have to flash back to the original Diablo release rather than wake up to a dead tablet in the morning randomly.

For that matter I feel the same way about the 770 - I would be totally happy with the state it was left in if the stupid browser didn't crash randomly. How about an internet tablet that you can, oh I don't know, browse the internet on?

Frank

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Erm, because you have a broken router that doesn't support WiFI PSM? :\

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

No, notice the part about flashing back to the original Diablo. Chinook, Diablo 1 both ran perfectly with my router. Never a battery run down, ever. Diablo 2 comes out and within a week had my first run down. Same networking hardware in my home.

Frank