Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

If it's not something I want anymore, why should I care if it lives or dies?

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

I was not implying the case of not wanting the tablet. It is possible to dislike some engineering decisions and still want the tablet. Such is the case with my beloved N810.

But to answer your question:
Whether you care or not is up to you. However, some people care about the satiation of others. I've made friends on this board, and even if I didn't want the future NIT, I would still prefer it 'lived,' for their benefit.


YARR!
}:^)~
?Capt'n Corrupt?

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

no. what good is it to ensure the future of the tablets if it can only be done by changing the concept of the tablets in a way that in the end they're not what i once liked anymore, back in 2006, when i bought my 770?

this is a purely theoretical question ATM because i'll still buy an RX-51, no matter how they change maemo... i'm too curious. :)

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

The goal is to have the software out of box find the best balance between "mobile" and "portable" taking advantage of the hardware as outlined by ragnar here. Because a new Maemo-based device by Nokia is more aimed at mainstream than previous devices the out of box experience also becomes more important. That the out of box experience of a device is not the experience a hacker, developer or power user wants is a given and is also the case with other devices (DAPs, smartphones, laptops, cameras, fridges, coffee machines, and so on).

You are free to modify your experience which software-wise, unlike in the case of Apple iPhone, is endorsed by Nokia. Heck, even encouraged! This allows you to for example -as you stated you prefer- run desktop applications on your tablet. Because, as appears in this topic, there is demand for desktop and stylus optimized UI paradigms you can rest assure this will be available 3rd party, and you're free to contribute. It just won't work like that out of the box (for reason, see above).

Providing traditional desktop applications has been possible on "mobile" devices too. There are folks who run VNC clients and torrent clients on their smartphone. Not my cup of tea, not part of the out of box experience, but it is possible.

Ofcourse, you're still limited by the hardware. Not having a T9 or TrackPoint, the type of screen (capacitative or resistive) is a hardware design choice one cannot easily circumvent. Although there are mods (1, 2) which work around design choices of N810.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

To borrow part of ragnars' metaphor:

Automobiles are like the current desktop/laptop computers, powerful, endless variety suited to your needs, easy to use, and will get you where you want to go.

Bicycles are like the current mobile devices, not very powerful, far less variety, easy to use, will get you where you need to go.

Some people have bicycles with small motors on them similar to the current smart phones. They are more powerful than bicycles, but a little harder to use, and a lot fewer of them out there.

Motorcycles are like the current tablets. A little bigger than a bicycle, a lot more powerful, harder to use than a bicycle, and similar to a car to use.

Nokia seems to be going for a moped with the new tablets. Trying to combine the strengths of a bicycle and motorcycle in a pretty package. More powerful than a bicycle, and unfortunately more powerful than the current motorcycles. Not quite as easy to use as a bicycle, easier to use than a motorcycle, and although more powerful than a motorcycle, ultimately constrained by the pretty package making them less useful than a motorcycle.

Sure, some people will figure out ways to remove parts of the pretty package to unleash their full potential, but this is really a very small subset.

I believe sales numbers in go along the lines of cars > bicycles > motorcycles >> mopeds. I believe this is what may happen with the new tablets which would be very bad. A lot of people already have a car and a bicycle. Some also get a motorcycle as an exciting toy (way more fun than a bicycle and able to replace a car in a pinch). Very few people would get a car, bicycle, and a moped.

I'm more concerned about the software than the existence of an actual stylus (I have plenty lying around from previous devices). I would much prefer a device capable of holding a stylus without a third party add-on or a case being required, but ultimately the software is the real issue.

The question is: If the next devices will have hardware keyboards why keep an on screen keyboard at all? If it makes sense to have an on screen keyboard, why not keep both? Surely, that does not take up much more resources or time to support. By getting rid of the stylus keyboard, and having a finger based ui, from a cost standpoint, it would make sense to eliminate the stylus entirely.

PS. I can use/play with both liqbase and numpty physics with my finger? Numpty is a little harder, and more of a challenge, but certainly neither *require* a stylus to use.

I also apologize for any grammar, or spelling errors, or any run-on sentences, etc.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Because the hardware keyboard sucks at certain type of data entry, (for example numbers), and on-screen keyboards are easier to customize for specific country/language needs. Them crazy people making latin alphabets with 35+ letters, what were they thinking ! :) Gnumeric without a numpad (software or hardware) is murder. However, if the RX-51 is a dual slider with qwerty + numpad I take it all back, I swear !

How exactly is redoing your complete UI paradigm in order to loose a 0.10$ component and the OSK cost saving factor ? I understand the urge to do it to make the thing more appealing to the mainstream which is currently in finger-frenzy, but certainly not as a cost cutting measure.

Typing your message did not *require* a keyboard either, but sure made it easier, right ? :)

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

We ALL know that non-American, er, English speakers are inferior, anyway, right? Screw 'em all!!!! </sarcasm>

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Precisely my point. The main reason you need an onscreen keyboard is VERSATILITY.

By my count on my N800:
Finger keyboard: 38 keys, aproximately 66 characters (1/6 of the screen), you can't see where you are typing, have to hit a modifier key to switch between letters and numbers.
Stylus keyboard: 55 keys (includes numpad), aproximately 2/3 of the screen visible, and you can see where you are typing.
Both are best used with two hands.

In my humble opinion, the stylus keyboard lets you see where you are typing, has more keys available (particularly the number pad), which makes it more versatile (particularly for language or any other customization).

Why would you eliminate the more versatile of the two on screen keyboards? With the right tool it's pretty easy to use. Probably 1/2 my posts on here are made using it. The only reason to get rid of it would be if it were too difficult to use. Why would it be too difficult to use? If there were no stylus, it would be too difficult to use.

I'm not suggesting Nokia re-designed the UI to save a couple of cents by eliminating the stylus. I am suggesting that in order to force the UI to be finger friendly, it was designed with the idea that no stylus would be used/needed. Once that decision has been made, and the UI is completely usable without a stylus, why include one? Why not save $0.10 x (# of tablets)? If it isn't needed surely it is safe to eliminate?

If there is no stylus, gnumeric and a lot of other very useful programs are going to be annoying to use. It has already been shown that a device without a stylus can still sell a lot of units with a properly designed UI (iphone/itouch). Why then is it so ridiculous to suggest that one of the next tablets may not have a stylus, when one of the more useful/versatile stylus friendly features has been eliminated?

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

maybe its time someone had a look at getting some kind of replacement going, using the sdk, then? as i do not think nokia will bother doing so because of this thread...

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Because someone might write their own stylus-keyboard program, and then be kind enough to make it available to others. It is annoying as all heck to figure out where to store (and not lose) a stylus that doesn't have a convenient built-in dock in the device.

Now, if you want to suggest building in the dock, but selling the styli as accessories, that is also an option. :p

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

nokia's solution on their recent touch phone seems ok, a pecter on a string ;)

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

I don't get it. Nokia would not bother making the stylus-keyboard available as an optional download BECAUSE people want it? I think I'm missing something ...

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

The fact that fremantle itself doesn't need it doesn't mean half of the stuff in extras, Mer, ARM Ubuntu, Android and a whole slew of linked software that *could* be installed on the device doesn't need it.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Apparently not the targeted market. I don't know for sure, but I would think some user focus group feedback is also considered before making these kinds of decisions. :)

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

If they don't want my money, they won't get it!

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Why should I need that? I carry my pecker everywhere I go. Though I haven't yet tried using it as a stylus. I'll make that tonight's project. What's the advantage of having it on a string?

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Yes and I can use most/all of those programs without a stylus (not including Mer, Ubuntu, Android) using the menu hard key and dpad. They currently let me go through and make choices in all the menus. Not as easily as a stylus, but doable.

Besides, a new user may never see any of those programs. What Nokia is primarily concerned with is whatever default/stock programs are on the device when I buy it (or reflash). I highly doubt that one of the stock installed programs available on a newly purchased tablet will allow one to download and install Mer, Ubuntu, or Android. Nokia will count on the program developers to update their programs to work within the confines of the new UI.

I sincerely hope the next tablets have a stylus/stylus storage (and hopefully not on a string). I am just concerned that this is an indication of what I consider a serious issue with the UI.

Perhaps some Nokian can forward this thread to Kate or someone else who would have the authority to alleviate some of our fears. Hopefully, the existence/non-existence of a stylus is a silly enough question that it wouldn't give Nokia's competitors any advantage knowing this information prior to launch.

If it has a built-in stylus many of us could rest easier knowing that even if the new UI doesn't suit our tastes we can hack it or replace it without having to worry about losing a stylus or the effect pens, pencils, or other makeshift styli on our screens/screen protectors.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Or developers could just get to work with the Fremantle SDK, and users could be better helping them with feedback and ideas to improve their apps.

Really, you are investing too much time worrying in this thread.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

you can't lose it.
makes total sense actually, and might allow budding musicians to learn how to play digital instruments.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

You keep saying things like that, but it's really hard to develop for a device which may or may not have a physical keyboard, may or may not have a GPS, may or may not have a phone, has a screen or unknown dimensions, has an unknown amount of memory, has an unknown arrangement of hardware buttons, has some as-yet-undeciphered second type of keyboard input on one variant, may or may not have its apps distributable through Nokia's app store, may or may not be able to drive an external screen, might but probably won't have a capacitive screen, might but probably won't support multi-touch, may or may not support haptics beyond the simple "vibrate" that we know about, may or may not have a transflective screen, has unknown battery life, may or may not have a hardware stylus, may or may not fit in a jeans pocket, etc.

Success is not just a matter of developing against an SDK and hoping that the device will be well-suited to the app.

If Nokia actually wants to reap the benefit of the open source model, they need to be open themselves.

Someone once said that "there's not much community around S60, except for the community that Nokia pays to be there". That's also true of Maemo to some extent. Nokia is enlightened when it comes to subsidising conference attendances, funding a community debmaster, etc etc. But that's an expensive way to tap into open source when Nokia could reap huge benefits simply by being ... open!

Regards,
Roger

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Rather than becoming fixated on your perception of Nokia's level of openness, it'd probably behoove you to pay attention to the information that already out there and the answers to these points that have already been provided. For the sake of completeness, though, I'll address each of them with what we know.

We can be certain that at least one of the devices in the next generation will have a keyboard. There's a reason they put on in the N810, and I don't see them taking it out.

Considering that it looks like Nokia Maps will be bundled with Fremantle, I'd say this is a certainty.

Of all the potential features of the next device, this one is the least clear, but it's also one of the less relevant things to application developers. The bit of information about cellular connectivity that's relevant to developers (the data connectivity) was announced last year.

We have a part number for a Sony panel, you get the specs on it and you'll know for certain what the dimensions are. Really, though, the important information is known: the screen will be 800x480, and since that hasn't changed in 4 years, I'd say it's safe to assume that the dimensions wont, either.

Also hardly relevant to application developers. "A lot less than your average desktop" is plenty of information here. Whether it's 128MB or 256MB isn't going to make or break anybody's development plans.

This valid only to a certain extent.

This might be important if developers had to target only that varient, but as the software is expected to run on other devices, I think it's pretty safe to assume that this isn't a make-or-break proposition here.

Is the question here whether it's going to require an Apple AppStore-style gateway for software distribution or whether commercial developers will have the option of a more heavily supported (and commercialized) distribution method?

If it's the former, well, that's obviously not the case. Developers will be able to distribute their software for Fremantle through Extras and the Application Manager just like they always have.

If it's the later, well, how in the world is that relevant to anybody but commercial developers (who already have access to this sort of information through their relationships with Nokia)?

There are several mentions of video-out in the code (composite), and since USB isn't going away, an external display adaptor is still an option (probably a more feasible one with a faster USB bus, too).

Based on all of the information available, I think we can safely but this one to rest for the time being. The best argument against it are liqbase and Numpty Physics in the Fremantle Stars, well, that, and the (two) resistive panels listed in the kernel.

Same answer as above.

This hardly seems like a critical bit of information for application developers. Especially as something like this is likely handled at about the level of system sound notifications (i.e., very low level).

Based on the part numbers in the kernel, I'd say this is almost certain. I can't see Nokia backsliding on this feature anyway.

This is an easy one. Idle battery life will be superior to OMAP2 hardware, while full-blast battery life will likely be slightly worse (since there are a lot more components involved). The battery size isn't likely to change by much. Yet again, though, this isn't really critical for application developers.

Based on the applications in the Fremantle Stars, and the resistive screens in the kernel, I'd say this rumor is vastly overblown.

I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that the formfactor hasn't varied excessively from previous models. But, again, I don't see how this is a critical bit of information for application developers.

Really, though, the beta SDK isn't even out yet. We're still on an alpha release that isn't really intended for application developers. Who's to say that a hardware announcement might not be coming with the beta release? Then the application developers will have all of the information they could possibly need to develop for the next tablet.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

You may not realize it, but the Nokians who frequent this website get this. They get open source, and they understand what open means. Unfortunately big ships like Nokia don't turn on a dime, and it takes time to change direction like this (especially when most traditional business values go totally against it). They've made an amazing amount of progress since 2005.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

@eiffel, I understand knowing the answers to all your questions will make your short term life as developer easier. But if we haven't disclosed them by now is because Nokia thinks that by following certain marketing strategy the devices with Maemo 5 will have a better impact and will sell better. Which ultimately is a goal shared by most developers interested in the Maemo platform: most of you want more users for your software.

Then again, can you name the projects you have in mind for Maemo 5 and why all these questions are critical? If you can't really start seriously before having those questions answered fair enough: do not waste your time. All these pre-releases are made for those willing to get started before a product launch.

Before that product launch you can try the SDK pre-releases or you can ignore them. The worst combination is not to ignore them and not to have fun with them, spending your energies in especulative threads like this and writing the especulative post number 225.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

It's not even that. But this thread is getting too long and too off the original topic, therefore:

Open source vs confidential products
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...d.php?p=280756

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Software development is hard, and every developer wants their life to be easier :-)

I would like to develop something really cool, based on the intersection of my interests and the unique capabilities of the device. But I'm not prepared to put in hundreds of hours work developing for a device that may be surprisingly different from what I'm expecting.

You are right of course. I'll try not to vent my frustration so often. When the device is announced, I'll decide whether it's worth my time developing for.

@Ryan: thanks for your point-by-point comments.

Regards,
Roger

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Is handwriting still there btw?

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

It better not be.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

I know you're probably asking it as a question only tangentially related but Quim did say "only virtual keyboard".

Eh? Wouldn't you love for the handwriting still to be present? It'd 100% confirm the continuation of the stylus (I don't think anyone's mad enough to try HWR with fingers)

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

No, I wouldn't love to see handwriting still present. And if it was, it wouldn't confirm anything that isn't already highly probable. If you said that handwriting in the official release of Maemo 5 was just a 100% recompile of the Maemo 4 handwriting HIM plugin, that might be something I could love.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Can the beta release determine the screen dimensions 4.1' or 4.3' sorry if this is a dumb question.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Only if it comes with a hardware announcement.

Re: Kate Alhola's Maemo Presentation
 

Hopefully you can query physical dimension from X anyway, if your app really needs to know :)