Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Really? Because the games I've played on my G1 are all quite snappy.

One of them is a top-scrolling shooter, which plays with all of the speed I'd expect on a console. Fast, lots of sprites moving around the screen, etc. It's only quirk isn't based on CPU, but based upon controls -- it doesn't have a trigger/shoot button, so it constantly fires for you.

Not one slow down. It gets faster and faster with each phase. Fun, entertaining, arcade-ish fast paced game.

As for the person who said Doom runs clunky on it ... why would I want to run Doom (or Quake) on my phone (Maemo or Android)? Though, that's tangential ... yes, it may not be fast enough to run a 3d first person shooter. No one said, at any point, that it's as fast as native code, and that does mean there will be a narrow niche of apps that you wont want to run on it.

That narrow niche is not "games" (it is not a "complete fail for games"), but "certain games". That niche might be 3D rendered games (as opposed to pseudo-3D games). It's still fast enough for general applications, and general games. I'm not worried at all, nor do I accept claims that it's a 'complete fail for games', based on the fact that it can't run Doom or Quake smoothly.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

No. Android is a series of shallow canals and rivers. Useful and quite well suited for their purpose, but you wont be seeing jetboats, submarines, nor container ships in its waters. And its canal system is expanding rapidly -- they might be narrow passages, but its total square miles of area already exceeds that of Loch Maemo.

Maemo is a deep loch. But one that (right now) has almost no current, no tributaries, the waters are murky, and not a lot of square miles of surface area. It is far from being a deep blue sea. But it is impressively deep. A big, deep, almost stagnant*, pond, really. It'll hold an aircraft carrier or submarine ... but it wont be able to go anywhere, and you'll have some difficulty getting it in there.


(* 3 years to get 4 devices??? 2 years since the last device release? and the 5th device is only vaguely on the radar? And in those 3 years, how many 3rd party apps (esp. commercial ones) have been developed specifically for it? These waters are moving quite slowly compared to the Android canals ... which include phones, MIDs/pocketable-tablets, netbooks, non-pocketable-tablets, etc. with ports and specific apps being developed by a wide range of commercial and non-commercial developers. Those waters are moving quite quickly.)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

To drive the analogy into the depths, you should mention that the Loch Maemo is off in the distance and the boat is still out of the water being fitted out while the Android canals have boats sailing on them and more are lining up at the first lock.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Looks like the Droid is not as feature relative to the N900 as expected.

1. CPU is 550mhz (still 3430 and just underclocked?)
2. 16gb card installed in the micro sd slot. Probably class 2. N900 has 32"ish" more gigs of built in fast memory.


Oh yeah,

Android is for girls ;)

Yes, very lame-especially if you are a girl.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

The N900 just isn't for everyone nor should it be. IMO Android can offer a good solution to some folk that are average (non-power users) people looking for a good and simple smartphone. As for Motorola's offering I'm really wondering about the quality, something Moto has sporadically struggled with over the years. Plus IMO it's ugly. I'm also curious what long term Nseries and Eseries users think of Android for both usability and hardware quality [of various devices].

In the end if someone wanted my opinion of this device I'd have to tell them to take a pass because this is not the 'droid they're looking for.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I agree. I have been using Android since last September and it is solid for the general consumer. I will still use my G1 as a back-up device. It is functional:

1. Scan barcodes and get price links to compare
2. Voice search Google
3. ID songs with the mic and tag the song
4. Very good map intergration for trips
5. Good game emulators (when clocked to 528mhz)
6. Google Reader mobile page works GREAT!

I am still on Android 1.5 rooted, and always clock to 528mhz. With my 2300mah battery, the phone lasts two days (no 3G yet where I live so radio off).

I am messing around more than anything else. If Android adds more video codec support, more audio options and a little more efficiency with the byte code layer, I would consider an N900 with Android.

The nice thing about Android is it is COMPETITION- Good for consumers :)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Doesn't look so bad really... a little bit "boxy" perhaps. Screen is higher resolution than N900s at 854x480. Full specs here. Droid due in November. :)

http://phandroid.com/wp-content/uplo...roid-site3.jpg
http://phandroid.com/wp-content/uplo...roid-site4.jpg

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

(starting to get a bit off topic)

Since you're going as far as rooting, have you tried Cyanogen's ROMs? Supposedly they make some nice additions, and they really improve the efficiency of Android itself (one of my coworkers uses Cyanogen's ROM on his MyTouch3G, and says it really gave a boost in both speed and lifetime ... I only use the non-rooted vanilla Android on my G1 though).

90% of what I do is ... MP3 playing on my (public transportation) commute, Gmail, Google Reader, and then a little bit of light web browsing. I also get the weather channel updates (both widget form, and the status bar). And then a ton of TXT'ing to my gf.

Oh, and, which battery did you get? I'm still using the stock one, after a year :-} (I'm just careful about always charging it when I get home or two the office, and I keep wifi and bluteooth turned off when I don't need them)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I wouldn't want an N900 with Android.

I would want Maemo ... and Dalvik. Then you get the best of both (real Linux computer in your pocket, Maemo's UI work and integration, and Android applications). And on a bigger device (a 4.1" phone with comfortable 5 row keyboard and dpad for one ... and on a 10" convertible tablet netbook for my other mobile device).

A second choice would be Android, but with a Linux user-land (terminal app, gnu bin-utils, apt-get/apt-cache, perl, etc.) added on. So that I get the "real linux in my pocket" effect that Maemo has. But I don't know how I would best add X to this (a small virtual X layer running on top of the existing Android graphics enviroment? not sure). I'm not a huge fan of X, as I think it's rather inefficient and under-featured as a window drawing mechanism ... and I'm agnostic about GNOME vs Android's "window manager". So I could probably even live without X support at all. But, again, that would be my second choice, and I probably wouldn't run it on an N900.

Third choice... not sure if it'd be Pure Maemo5 or Pure Android. I wont know the answer to that until I have my N900. :-) Though, there are a few things I miss about Maemo (from my days of using my N810). But not enough to keep using the two device model (a phone + N810). When it's Android on my G1 vs phone+N810, Android is good enough (and the two device model is inconvenient enough) that I'm more than happy sticking to Android. But, the N900 changes some of that equation (single device, better resolution than the G1, etc.). So I have to wait and see.

But if it was Pure Android, I doubt I'd run it on an N900. I'm hoping for a new Android device that has a 5 row keyboard (like the G1), but hopefully one with a dpad and a bigger screen than the G1. I was willing to consider the Motorola Sholes/Tao/Droid when it had a 4 row keyboard that had a dedicated number row ... but they changed the keyboard layout. Between that and having to switch to Verizon, not so interested anymore. The Motorola Cliq might be interesting ... but still, 4 row keyboard without a dedicated number row. But at least I don't have to switch carriers in order to get it.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

wait i thought droid was 1ghz?

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

The Droid is really disappointing. No blazing fast CPU. Little onboard storage. The 1400mAh battery is barely larger than the N900's 1350mAh but has more screen to power. Yeah, the screen is slightly larger and has slightly higher resolution than the N900, but 3.5" to me is just about right for a pocket-able, phone-enabled device. Bigger is not always better. It does have a D-pad, but the keyboard looks flat and hard to feel.

Android vs Maemo - no contest unless you're only counting apps in a market.

And I'm sorry, but the Droid is just plain FUGLY. Looks like the designers of the upper screen half read the length spec differently from the designers of the bottom keyboard half. What's with that? Goofy lookin'...makes my old G1 look almost graceful.

But it IS a little thinner and lighter. I guess that's something...but I'm even more glad now I ordered the N900.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Great post - the whole thing was a great read. Thanks.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

G1 I have a 3rd party 2300mah from eBay. Works great for past eight months and the contoured cover enables it to fit in my belt case. The newer roms take up more of the app space and I am already down to 17megs. Apps2sd is not for me (need to card swap), so I am sticking with the functional setup I have now :)

As far as N900 with Android, I said "consider". Maemo needs less cpu clock to conduct similar operations and I like the premise of the OS- it is what Android should / could have been.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Honestly, I think the optimal path is somewhere in between.

I doubt you're ever going to see a huge developer presence on Maemo. Sure, the Linux community might (_might_) grab on to it once Nokia _really_ gets behind it. But it's Linux. The mainstream consumer apps developer community isn't likely to make that leap.

Maemo needs 3 things that Android has:

1) a mainstream programming environment -- a Java based makes for an easy learning curve for the huge base of Java programmer who consider becoming an Android developer. It doesn't have to be Java, but it has to be a common language with a common (more common than Linux, Gnome, and probably Qt) API.
2) an open and optional App Market (as opposed to no central distribution channel for 3rd party devs that older Maemos have had, or the closed and mandatory distribution channel that Apple has)
3) the HUGE marketing push and effort that Google, HTC, T-Mobile, etc. have put into Android (or that Apple has put into the iPhone).

And, it wouldn't hurt to have a huge base of devices that it runs on as well. Apple hasn't needed that, but it's helping Android quite a bit, IMO.

#3 is probably the biggest key. But #1 and #2 would be a huge benefit to Maemo, IMO.

I'm not sure that Android _needs_ (for its intended goal/audience) anything from Maemo ... but I'd like to see it have a sort of "pro" version that gives you a more typical Linux experience at the command line, apt-get/apt-cache, perl, and not need to be "rooted" for some of the more interesting capabilities, and things like that. All things that you get with Maemo.

That's why my first choice is a hybrid of Maemo at the base, and Android on top.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Responding to the last unnumbered point first, I think this is going to be the big stumbling block for Nokia and why they will lose out to Android. Nokia needs to sell the device itself to make money. Google gets money from tying people into their universe of services and applications (from whence they can advertise to you), so Google can give away Android and get others to do the work for them on the hardware side. Nokia's approach seems to be to reserve their best, highest end, platform for exclusive N series phones, which ends up making it into a niche product. Not much suggests Nokia is planning to change this strategy with the N900 or subsequent Maemo devices. That was fine in the apex of the S60 days, when flagship devices were more about creating brand appeal, than about selling numbers of devices. But then the iPhone came along, followed by Android, and popularized this sort of smartphone/desktop type device, and Nokia is just getting left in the dust. Nokia should put Maemo on a ton of different devices at different price points, if they want to compete (since Nokia can't really make money licensing Maemo--why pay for the license when you can have Android for free? also the Achilles heel of WinMo).

In response to 1), isn't Qt in Maemo 6 supposed to basically serve the same purpose as Java on Android? Although it sadly also seems like Qt may be another step toward closing down Maemo and making it more proprietary like the iPhone and Android.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

It's supposed to ... but, how much penetration into the wide world of mainstream app developers does Qt have? Certainly not as much as Java.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

i have not read ALL 22 pages of blog here, but i have a question...


the N900 will have full PIM sync available through nokia pc suite and OVI suite.


but the android unit does not have a viable pim sync.

if so, that is "standard" and not some 3rd party app, please correct me.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

just subscribing...sorry

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

The N900 does not have full PIM sync. It has limited PIM sync. You can sync to a local _WINDOWS_ PC via USB or Bluetooth. You can sync to OVI.

You cannot sync to any random SycnML service. You can't sync to a Mac. You can't sync to a Linux PC.

Anything that can sync to Google Apps (directly, or via various third party apps) can stay in Sync with Android. My Mac is in perfect sync with my Android phone, because my Mac has an add-on that sycn's with Google.

You may not want a "third party" app for it, but it beats the pants off of Maemo in that regard. When it come so PIM syncing, Android is miles ahead of Maemo, IMO.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

It's the awful MOTO and VZN logos that are ruining the look of the phone. The phone itself look good.

And there will be GSM version of this phone coming out soon.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Around the same time as the N900, looks like. I think that keypad is pretty thin and won't have good tactile response, but who knows? For a smartphone, it'll do well, but it has no business competing with a portable desktop device (Thanks for the designation, Wired.com). Two different genres.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Just for some more thoughts about Android and what it represents, this is a pretty amazing video of Lee Williams, the head of the Symbian Foundation, commenting on Google and it's strategy:

http://gigaom.com/2009/10/23/symbian...ogles-android/

It's pretty funny when he says, "Come on, when you have to say in your motto that, 'We're not evil,' right away the first question in my mind is, why do you have to tell me that?"

But anyway, he has a lot of much more substantive things to say that are pretty interesting, including discussing why Android is not as open of a platform as Google claims it is.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

If you haven't seen it yet, here's one thing Android (Droid) will excel at:
http://www.google.com/mobile/navigation/#p=default

The announcement made Garmin and Tomtom's stocks drop today by 17% and 20% respectively.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Can I have some of what you're smoking? Or are you saying that Google is competitive? If i recall right, all Google products are about to lock out the competition... :(

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Garmin and TomTom's gravy days are over. The Nuviphone won't save Garmin like they're hoping. It's a so-so design with yet another proprietary Linux-based OS. Too bad, 'cause Garmin is based here in Kansas City so soon some locals may loose jobs. Lotsa luck to 'em.

But the major flaw in Google Maps is no maps are stored on the phone so they don't work without a 'net connection. One of the things that will be great about the N900 is even when I'm way out in the sticks with no signal (which happens a lot) the GPS and maps will still work 'cause I can download and store map data on the phone. With my G1 I'm just still lost.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

In what way do Google's products lock out the competition? I sync my N810 calendar with Google's because Google developed open APIs. There is an effort at Google to make all data that they store easily retrievable in open formats:

http://dataliberation.blogspot.com/2...ion-front.html

There may be many reasons to dislike Google but this is not one of them. Google dominates the competition, it doesn't lock it out.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

This has been partially addressed in the version of GMaps shipping with Android 2.0. If you "get directions" the phone caches the maps necessary for your route, so that if you lose connection, you're still good. Does OVI Maps do something similar? (I'm not trolling! I really don't know). There also seems to be another level of integration with peripherals; mentioned was putting the Droid in a car "dock" automatically activates GPS mode, with larger icons, presumably to allow the driver to see (something that he's not supposed to be doing while he's driving anyways). Does anyone know of a desktop dock for the n900? Charging, USB syncing, TV-out, Audio out, anything out or in? And last question for the community mavens, any word on implementation of Project noBounds?

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

The new Google navigator is definitely a differentiate app. Real time traffic + google street view, simply sweet. More importantly, it can not be emulated by another company any time soon. If Apple is smart, they would not block this app from iphone. Unfortunately, it leaves the N900 in the cold. I don't see the app comes to maemo any time soon. Not to mention Java doesn't even work on maemo 5 yet. I would have a very hard to buying N900 over Droid now, especially since Droid will work in Canada and will likely be heavily subsidized.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Android is pretty cool. Really good there is more competition as I'm getting sick of the iPhone (iDont) hype.

Maemo though is a different thing altogether - its an animal !!. Strictly for big boys.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

If your going include third party apps for Android then you should also include the possibility of third party apps on Maemo that do the same thing.

As for the GPS thing, I think TomTom has seen this coming for a while, that's what they're no longer banking on selling hardware but instead maps and navigation for phones. But even that may not be enough to stop Google.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

The DROID is no more ugly than the N900 - beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. You remind me of iPhone fanboys - FUGLY is one of the few words in their limited vocabulary . Please dont degrade this forum to that level. Be objective. This is not a zero sum game - Maemo does not have to kill Droid and vice versa. Grow up !

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Today when I say the Goole navigation app with Street View, turn by turn navigation etc, I was really impressed. Frankly I still whip out my N95 rather than my N810 when I need to see some maps. The N95 simply wins since it has Google maps. Now with this free turn by turn navigation - Android 2.0 is imcreasingly looking more attarctive.

The Droid hardware is not what cuts the mustard - its the software and the apps. Frankly - as a end user I care less about philosophies of openness etc (I do care some) rather than firstly satisfying my use cases.

Unless Google maps comes to Maemo (and Nokia should pursue this), GPS functionality on Maemo leaves much to be desired.

And to top it off, I use Google Mail, contacts, docs, notebook so Android has that advantage of integration with Google services. I do like that part.
The rest of the arguments about Android being less open, Dalvik being slower, Google being more evil, Verizon being a stiffling company - all these matter as a secondary point to me. Primary issue is what withh a device do for me apps wise.

And this is where I am a bit sceptical of the Linux open source developers - I have always as a end user wanted apps - consumer apps, but since the Zaurus days I see linux devs "porting" system tools and claiming app counts. Frankly - I am no sys admin - so VNC, curl, SFTP, SSH, and all that matter less to me as "applications" I want apps which will fulfill my end user need like Stocks monitor, portfolio manager, timesheet app, project planning, note taking, reminders and tasks todo's, and all these types.

During the Zaurus days I was very dissapointed in this aspect. With Maemo I am more positive about it - but still the geekiness around me sometimes makes me sceptical a bit.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

what is the big gold area in the middle of the dpad? I mean, what in the world is it?

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Amen.

I get so tired of "is it an iPhone killer!?" type posts on howard forums, and engadget, etc.

WHO CARES?

The device needs to sink or swim on its own merits. If it's a great device that fills a persons needs, at a good price point, who gives a rats a*s if it's going to steal market share from the iPhone or not? All it needs is to have enough people in that category that it's a successful and sustainable product. Comparison to the iPhone (or the Sidekick, or ... etc.) are all pure BS.

As as for Maemo vs Android/Droid ... again, neither needs to kill the other. They each have their advantages and merits. Discussing the advantages of one doesn't mean you need to go about insulting the other (nor visa versa -- discusing the flaws of one doesn't mean you're promoting the other).

And, frankly, I'd rather discuss how to go about having a device that is able to capture the advantages of both platforms. As I've said before, I'd love to see Dalvik on Maemo. This doesn't have to be an "either-or" world, we can mix them together. And, frankly, I think that would be a better platform than either one alone.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Looks weird, doesn't it? They should have gone with all black, IMO.

Of course, I also think they should have stuck to the original key layout (dedicated number row). But, clearly they aren't listening to me on this.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

People that have tried the Droid like it. They fall in love with the screen and the Eclair interface. The beta for Google Nav is cool too. Here is the problem though:

Google and Verizon are pushing this as an iPhone challenger, but unlike the iPhone, you are stuck with less than 256 megs of app space and some of that is taken by apps already with the OS.

It will be pure comedy early next year when people say, "where the heck is my app space?"

Google built a shopping mall (Android) without parking (app memory).

This will drag down the enthusiasm for Droid. Android has already stated they will not create virtual app space for SD card, since it "compromises the OS security".

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

I suppose this was inevitable. Garmin and TomTom essentially provide an application that doesn't need to be tied to any specific hardware. Once the technology in phones is good enough, there's not much reason to have two separate devices.

And this is another example of why Google is going to completely own the mobile market. Nobody else can afford to just give away applications/services like this. Everyone else has to sell these things to make money. Google gets their money from tying you into their universe and advertising to you.

Google even gets to by a parasite on platforms other than Android. Sure they would prefer you have an Android device, but if not it's still in their interest to make Gmail, Google Maps, Google Voice and all of it availble on other platforms. They can suck you in and market to you that way too. Hence its backing of net neutrality for wireless carriers and sicking the FCC on Apple for blocking Google Voice.

Google's going after all the revenue sources that are extrinsic to the hardware itself, both via their free core apps combined with advertising and via their own app market. The more slickly it's intergrated with everything you do on your phone and on your computer (email, maps, searching, sms, voice/telephony, social networking), the more people will gravitate toward it and the more everyone else just becomes a device manufacturer, while Google gets the real revenue in the application/services domain, whether through Android or through Google services on another platform.

That said, @nilchack: I agree that it's cheesey to port a lof of system tools to Maemo and use that to claim a higher app count. As you say, for most end users that's not really what they're looking for. But this is probably less cheesey than Apple's app count being fluffed up with a thousand fart simulators. Everybody's playing fast and loose with the numbers.

The very open Linux driven Meamo platform probably will have less end user oriented apps. And there will probably be less money to be made with Maemo apps. But the advantage I think will be that those end users apps that exist may serve more real purposes, be more substantive and refined, and there will be less of the thousand different one hit wonder type apps seen in Apple's app store. And once the Android market and Android get big enough, it's going to have the same fart simulator overload as Apple's app store.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

AMEN!

I think that's really the biggest win for Android. They've got a huge stable of people developing consumer apps for their platform. The fact that Maemo is a better "linux in your pocket" platform doesn't make it a better "people can get real stuff done" platform.

And, while Nokia might be great at developing the core apps, and give us more core/free apps than Android does ... that's just one company with finite resources. Even if they get a few more companies into the fold, it's not going to be as fruitful as the hordes of people developing useful utilities on Android. Even if some are crap, even if most are crap, there's more monkeys in that room than in Maemo's room. (though, unfortunately, neither has infinite monkeys).


IMO: Nokia needs to figure how to harness Android's energy. Be like an Aikidoka, figure out how to use the other person's energy to your advantage, with the goal of mutually advantageous harmony. There's no need for a Karateka mindset (beat each other until one of you falls down).

Nokia should:
1) develop a good solid core set of Maemo apps (as they're already doing) and always emphasize that as the best development approach for Maemo.

2) develop a Dalvik engine for Maemo, so that Maemo can harness the Android momentum. Thus allowing Maemo users to receive from it, and allowing Maemo developers to contribute to it. They can probably leverage some of the work that Canonical is already putting into this (to get Dalvik running on Ubuntu).

3) separately market to IT individuals*, and Linux enthusiasts, that Maemo gives you low level access, which in turn gives you more options for doing IT tasks. In essence, two separate market compaigns ... one for "normal people" -- emphasizing UI, applications, etc.; and one for "slashdoters" (effectively).


(* all of my coworkers jealous when we had a huge data center shut down to replace our power units, and as we came back up, they were running around the data center like mice back and forth from their laptops on tables (ssh'ed into the console server) and the systems themselves, and I was standing there with my N810 in my hand, ssh'ing into the console server while standing next to the server itself, starting things up)

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

It seems you should be in the Android camp and not Maemo camp then. Because no matter how far Maemo goes it'll always be behind the iPhone, Android, and what not in those consumer apps.

Re: N900 vs. Motorola Droid (Verizon Android device)
 

Why not be in both camps?