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-   Community (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44546)

fpp 2010-02-15 16:35
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Well, call me a cynic, but I can't bring myself to believe in this right now.

One, I have seen too many fanfare announcements of partnerships between industry heavyweights over the years, just to see them get bogged down by corporate ego and infighting, and dive to oblivion with a whimper.

Two, from the outside this looks like a sellout on Nokia's part. They contribute Qt and the UI, Intel gets the rest (OS, infrastructure and governance). And I have much less faith in Intel's capacity to "get things right" than Nokia's... CPU neutrality ? Persistence ? Totally, 100% open source ? Wait 'n see...

Three, I don't believe in two unfinished parts making a complete whole. I'm on my fourth generation of Maemo devices: three of them have spent their usable lifespan as innovative hardware grossly underused by buggy and incomplete software. Looks like the fourth is going to follow suit now. And the fifth will likely run a beta of a mongrel with DNA from Moblin, which has always failed to impress me...

This could be the start of something great. Or it could be the end of this community as it evolved over the past four years.

jackie_jagger 2010-02-15 16:36
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Just read through 20 pages and I would certainly say I will not dump my N900 for this, I have a really strong feeling MeeGo will get ported to the N900 !! Qt 4.6 and this is simply a boost to the Maemo community !!

I'm excited about this ....can't wait to see how things unfold !!

Cheers
Jackie

rcs1000 2010-02-15 16:37
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
@TA-t3

I wouldn't count on that. :-)

mullf 2010-02-15 16:41
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oscillik (Post 527431)
what, like people who have trouble pronouncing Nokia? :p

Nok-ia (Europe)
Noe-kia (America)
I pronounce it Nok-ia and I'm in the US.

BoxOfSnoo 2010-02-15 16:42
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Nokia: "Ooh something shiny!"

Don't expect any more n900 development, they want to sell you hardware, not keep your n(curVersion-100) working (or fix the bugs)

"WONTFIX: Fixed in MeeGo" is the new "WONTFIX: Fixed in Fremantle"

bret hart 2010-02-15 16:44
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
This is really interesting news, it goes much further than simply the next OS for a Nokia flagship. Google challeneged Nokia by stepping on their turf with Android, now Nokia + Intel have blown away any reason Chrome OS had to exist.
For example if in the future I have to choose between a Meego netbook and a Chrome OS system with its obsession for keeping all my data on the "cloud", then it really is no choice, when they are both "free".

fpp 2010-02-15 16:48
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxOfSnoo (Post 527656)
"WONTFIX: Fixed in MeeGo" is the new "WONTFIX: Fixed in Fremantle"
Damn, I wanted to do that one, foiled again ! :-)

edit: actually you got it wrong, so I still get dibs:

"WONTFIX: Fixed in MeeGo" is the new "WONTFIX: Fixed in Harmattan" :-)

RevdKathy 2010-02-15 16:49
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
I think the bit that worries me most about this is the effect on the community.

The device is... a device. the definition of 'obsolete' in technology is 'ten minutes after you opened the box' so I didn't expect the n900 to have updates forever. It will still work!

But the community here is something that has become very important to me, and I'm concerned that this will impact it in unhelpful ways. A quick look at the the comparisons set out by Qgil here suggests that Maemo has a much more active, communicative volunteer community, comprising not only developers and technical people but enthusiasts and end-users (like me).

I find myself asking things like "why were we allowed to go on discussion a maemo.org mascot when people must have known maemo had a limited shelf life?" (I won't mention that I'm knitting an obsolete scarf!) which is something about this being sprung on a good community without any warning. Then there's "What will happen to the council?" - will the community still need dedicated representatives to cement the bond between professionals and volunteers? What shape will the community have? Will end-users still be wanted around here?

And what will become of t.m.o.? Moblin has nothing remotely like it - will it too become obsolete?

A lot of people have put a great deal of effort into building a community here, including council members past and present. I don't want to see all that good work lost in some Grand Scheme.

Of course, that all sounds very negative. I'm not. I'm just airing my anxieties to make sure that some of the best bits of maemo.org (of which the comunty is one, IMNSHO) don't get lost in the marriage.

Edit - on a personal note, I dislike the name. Smacks of the worst sort of egocentricity. I rather hope the Open Source sommunity is about something other than Me and My Ego.

TA-t3 2010-02-15 16:49
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcs1000 (Post 527652)
@TA-t3

I wouldn't count on that. :-)
If it's going Fedora-based, RPM-based? Ditching the Debian origin? Oh yes, I'll be out of here then. There would be nothing left for me here, I moved _away_ from that kind of packaging and OS for a reason.

sevla 2010-02-15 16:53
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
I think what we can expect here is a tablet from nokia running on intel's architecture with MeeGo OS.

And the apps' will be plentiful since it's all based on QT.. This is very good news. Having multiple os's with a single framework is the way to go. Android and Iphone OS will essentially be left in the dark or at least limited to only a few device types i.e. phone, mid's etc.

maluka 2010-02-15 16:54
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevdKathy (Post 527669)
I think the bit that worries me most about this is the effect on the community.

The device is... a device. the definition of 'obsolete' in technology is 'ten minutes after you opened the box' so I didn't expect the n900 to have updates forever. It will still work!

But the community here is something that has become very important to me, and I'm concerned that this will impact it in unhelpful ways. A quick look at the the comparisons set out by Qgil here suggests that Maemo has a much more active, communicative volunteer community, comprising not only developers and technical people but enthusiasts and end-users (like me).

I find myself asking things like "why were we allowed to go on discussion a maemo.org mascot when people must have known maemo had a limited shelf life?" (I won't mention that I'm knitting an obsolete scarf!) which is something about this being sprung on a good community without any warning. Then there's "What will happen to the council?" - will the community still need dedicated representatives to cement the bond between professionals and volunteers? What shape will the community have? Will end-users still be wanted around here?

And what will become of t.m.o.? Moblin has nothing remotely like it - will it too become obsolete?

A lot of people have put a great deal of effort into building a community here, including council members past and present. I don't want to see all that good work lost in some Grand Scheme.

Of course, that all sounds very negative. I'm not. I'm just airing my anxieties to make sure that some of the best bits of maemo.org (of which the comunty is one, IMNSHO) don't get lost in the marriage.
Would a simple rebranding for maemo.org be enough? most of us survived the switch from internettablettalk to maemo.org.

What I'm more interested in is whether Nokia will switch to using oFono and Connman to replace the current phone client?

luipaard 2010-02-15 16:56
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Now Linux foundation will take the lead. This is a very good sign for N900 users. There is no question about N900’s future anymore. The foundation is independent and there is no question, if they want N900 users to have the next release. They will let us have it. They are Linux.

RevdKathy 2010-02-15 16:58
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maluka (Post 527683)
Would a simple rebranding for maemo.org be enough? most of us survived the switch from internettablettalk to maemo.org.

What I'm more interested in is whether Nokia will switch to using oFono and Connman to replace the current phone client?
It's not that simple. This is not a 'rebranding' - it's a marriage. The maemo community is going to have to connect to the different needs and expectations of the moblin community. That they don't use a forum is just one element.

Moblin seem to be highly developer-oriented, for example, whereas maemo.org is increasingly an enthusiast and user community as well. The Moblin community structure is completely different, too: they don't have an equivalent of the Maemo council. If it were just a rebanding, I doubt there'd be quite so much fuss all round. ;)

ewan 2010-02-15 17:01
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
This does sound like a good thing in general; both the Linux Foundation and Intel have better track records of real open development than Nokia do, and the noise about 'completely open source' is pretty hopeful.

As for the RPM vs deb wars - get over it already, there are really no substantial differences left, RPM systems have long since added proper dependency handling, and debs have (more or less) added proper signatures. They're now different, but essentially equivalent, solutions to the same problem.

Interesting times, anyway.

NvyUs 2010-02-15 17:07
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
i think the community council should call a meeting and talk about trying to get some answers from nokia about the future of maemo.org
i dont see how having 3 sites all serving similar purpose is part of the longer term Meego strategy.
projects will easily get duplicated and there will be lot of fragmentation like this so Its only fair NOKIA and INTEL answer these concerns now and let the respective community's know where they will stand in 12 months time.

RenegadeFanboy 2010-02-15 17:09
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
If anyone is interested, I've started a thread about what are the best things to keep in this marriage ;) (You know, like every Tuesday Poker Nights ;)

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=527692

pelago 2010-02-15 17:09
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maluka (Post 527683)
What I'm more interested in is whether Nokia will switch to using oFono and Connman to replace the current phone client?
Maemo 6 was already set to use oFono before this announcement. I don't know about Connman.

maluka 2010-02-15 17:10
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevdKathy (Post 527694)
It's not that simple. This is not a 'rebranding' - it's a marriage. The maemo community is going to have to connect to the different needs and expectations of the moblin community. That they don't use a forum is just one element.

Moblin seem to be highly developer-oriented, for example, whereas maemo.org is increasingly an enthusiast and user community as well. The Moblin community structure is completely different, too: they don't have an equivalent of the Maemo council. If it were just a rebanding, I doubt there'd be quite so much fuss all round. ;)
I see your point but if they have no equivalent platform for end user, maybe they should be encouraged to integrate this forum (rebranded of course) and fast.

salawat 2010-02-15 17:11
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
when is MeeGo v2.0 coming out? :cool:

RenegadeFanboy 2010-02-15 17:14
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maluka (Post 527714)
I see your point but if they have no equivalent platform for end user, maybe they should be encouraged to integrate this forum (rebranded of course) and fast.
I think it would be good to collect all these "to be integrated" things and quickly raise a list with meego to work on integration.

Peet 2010-02-15 17:15
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Bye bye Ubuntu, and in particular the Debian universe and .debs...

Glad I held off getting the Nokia Maemo 5 device (aka N900). Not that I ever expected Nokia to start providing longer-term support for Maemo than what they've shown in the past, but if N900 doesn't run Maemo 6 ^^^ Meego like a champ... uh.

Likely there won't be any more resources thrown at this joint project, but apparently Intel and Nokia will try coordinating their existing resources more effectively.

What I find to be a potential conflict of interest is that Intel, handling the core OS, has in their interests to favour x86 over ARM while Nokia has in theirs to favour handheld devices (probably just mobile phones) over larger devices like netbooks and plain tablets.

rm42 2010-02-15 17:15
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R-R (Post 527501)

So yes the RPM move is really stupid as dependency has always sucked with RPM and it's a shame as every major community oriented distro is DEB based.
I disagree. RPM got a bad rep due to the very shoddy work Red Hat used to do in their repositories and because people used to grab RPMs from all over the place that would break their setup. There is nothing technical that prevents and RPM based distro to be as solid as a Deb based one. In fact, I have been running PCLinuxOS, which as RPM based distro, for years and I still have *never* had any dependency issues. I cannot say the same thing for my escapades with Kubuntu.

[OT_to_answer_your_incorrect statement]
And by the way, PCLinuxOS is a community oriented distro and a very popular one at that. Form many months it was at the top of the Distrowatch site. It dropped from there gradually due to Texstar's sabbatical, but he is back in full force. PCLinuxOS 2010 is going to be something to behold. Just watch.
[/OT_to_answer_your_incorrect statement]

GeraldKo 2010-02-15 17:21
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 527268)
A quick comment since this obviously also affects the Mer project. MeeGo seems to satisify all of the hopes I had when I wrote the original Maemo Reconstructed proposal.

It has a proper governance, it has structure, entry ways for developers to participate, proper development environments, it's fully open source (I think there's exceptions with HW support) and many other positive things. It is completely new land and we have a very good ability to participate in the process. Best way is not to complain but to join and help shape the future.

If you have been interested in Mer and contributing to it, I would like to say that I will recommend you to participate in the MeeGo project. This does not mean Mer will shut down, but we will be helping out with Fremantle and Harmattan afterlife. If there's no indications of MeeGo on N900, this would obviously be an area that Mer would be helping out in - to get N900 support added to the platform.
Harmattan? Why should the so-far-unreleased Harmattan have a *life*, let alone an afterlife? Continuing development for Diablo, Fremantle, and Mer I can understand, but why would anyone put resources into Harmattan at this point?

mikec 2010-02-15 17:25
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
This is all very good news. Qt is the new Maemo. The Prospect of an OS that runs on my laptop AND my Phone is net new. A common dev platform makes that even better.

RPM works great on Open SuSE that I use daily. There is already Alien to convert between debs and RPMs so dont expect much real change.

You have to remember the reason that Moblin Switched from debs to RPMs, and that was to support licensing options in the format. This will give greater support to commercial devs, which will drive Linux more into the mainstream.

The community can only grow from here, I for one am sticking around .

solarion 2010-02-15 17:27
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
GeraldKo: getting apps ready, particularly that take advantage of new framework ideas and features, takes a good deal of time, and the earlier you start the better.

solarion 2010-02-15 17:28
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
My 2¢: I welcome the move, provided things are as open or more so than with maemo. Maemo's not been perfect in terms of Freedom (note the capital), but it's been lightyears beyond other platforms in the mobile space. I hope this continues. In particular for me, I hope to keep having good access to floating-point accelerators (DSP, GPU, etc.) So I'm hopeful (but also cynical, from years of bitter experience. :)

kaithomsen 2010-02-15 17:36
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirangp (Post 527175)
well..I am very much puzzled as how this will do good to the N900 and all the development going on for Maemo? What will happen to developers who are on the verge of starting development for Maemo or who have already started? Nokia just left n900 users in the middle of the sea cause no developer will want to develop any applications for Maemo now
Why do you think that? Mego application development will be based on Qt. Qt is also the recommended way to develop new applications for Maemo. And since Qt now also runs on Symbian developers will be able to target a rather large number of mobile devices and not just the N900. So isn't this rather an improvement?

jak 2010-02-15 17:41
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec (Post 527747)
You have to remember the reason that Moblin Switched from debs to RPMs, and that was to support licensing options in the format. This will give greater support to commercial devs, which will drive Linux more into the mainstream.
This is non-sense, you can easily add an XSBC-License field to debian/control with a license name. Or you could use dep.debian.net/deps/dep5/ for debian/copyright files and index them.

NokiaRocks 2010-02-15 17:45
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
I'm pretty sure MeeGo will be running on the N900. Simply because MeeGo will be multiplatform, why not supporting the N900 then ?

Texrat 2010-02-15 18:02
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Wow. This sounds exciting from a larger standpoint... not sure what to make of it from a personal perspective..

gemi 2010-02-15 18:04
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Let's see:

In 4 months, Nokia will present the N950 running MeeGo, the N900 is officially discontinued and unsupported (which it has been de facto for 4 months). The N950 will be touted as the new flagship, but its software will be unfinished and missing several crucial features, but you will be able to make phone calls.

In 8 months, Nokia will announce with fanfare the great news that they have concluded a partnership with AMD to develop a mobile software called LetsGo (based on an previous attempt called MeeGo).

In 20 months, Nokia will show the N980 running LetsGo, the N950 is officially discontinued and unsupported (which it has been de facto for 4 months). The N980 will be touted as the new flagship, but its software will be unfinished and missing several crucial features, you will not be able to make phonecalls, but you will be able to listen to music.

In 16 months, Nokia will announce with fanfare the great news that they have concluded a partnership with Lego to develop a mobile software called NoGo (based on an previous attempt called LetsGo).

In 18 months, Nokia will show the N980.5 running NoGo, the N980 is officially discontinued and unsupported (which it has been de facto for 4 months). The N980.5 will be touted as the new flagship, but its software will be unfinished and missing several crucial features, you will not be able to make phonecalls, you will not be able to listen to music, but you will be able to boot it.

etc.

syncdot 2010-02-15 18:10
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digbum13 (Post 527615)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2359259,00.asp

Sounds promising on the N900 front.
Yep. Seems like N900 will get its share too.

Quote:
Oistano pointed to Nokia's N900, a Linux-based smartphone introduced last year, as an example of devices that would benefit from MeeGo.

"MeeGo can run on many different devices, [so] people will be able to keep their favorite applications whenever they change their devices," Oistano said. "Applications will not be locked into one company's devices or a walled garden. Rather, we see the MeeGo ecosystem as an open frontier – no walls, no fences."
Sounds very promising.

NokiaRocks 2010-02-15 18:11
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
@gemi : Made my day :D
NoGo xD

wmarone 2010-02-15 18:12
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Rather, we see the MeeGo ecosystem as an open frontier – no walls, no fences.
I wonder if this includes nasty binary blobs like the PowerVR libraries. The userspace may be open but what about at the lower, hardware-bound levels?

HangLoose 2010-02-15 18:13
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Hey Nokia, here is my contribution...
Now you can give me MeeGo free in the N900 pretty please?!


Code:
osName = "Maemo"
stepXOfFive = 1

while stepXOfFive <= 5:
    if stepXOfFive <= 4:
            print "%s step %d of 5" % (osName,stepXOfFive)
            stepXOfFive += 1
    else:
            osName = get_weird_random_name()
            stepXOfFive = 1

antoarts 2010-02-15 18:13
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
If MeeGo is less debian-centric, what will happen to Easy-Debian?

HangLoose 2010-02-15 18:14
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemi (Post 527798)
Let's see:

In 18 months, Nokia will show the N980.5 running NoGo, the N980 is officially discontinued and unsupported (which it has been de facto for 4 months). The N980.5 will be touted as the new flagship, but its software will be unfinished and missing several crucial features, you will not be able to make phonecalls, you will not be able to listen to music, but you will be able to boot it.

etc.
Dammit... If I would be a faster coder I would have got all of those thanks for me...

v13 2010-02-15 18:15
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
The worst thing about the rpm transition is that most probably the system will no longer be based on Debian. This means that it will loose all benefits of Debian-derived distributions like that clear distinction of /etc and /usr, which IMO is bad news.

NvyUs 2010-02-15 18:16
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
moblin.org as already stated they will migrate to the new Meego.org site so its safe to bet that maemo.org will be closed and migrated also
http://moblin.org/community/blogs/im.../welcome-meego

Forphucsake 2010-02-15 18:16
Re: Maemo + Moblin = MeeGo
 
To pull a quote from engadget...

Quote:
We don't know many details, but he project seems to be pulling people from both Intel's Moblin initiative and Nokia's Maemo project, and job postings from a "major handset company" searching for a GUI designer in either Dallas or San Jose have appeared, so it sounds like something big is in the works.
AND that was from an article 15th May 09 about an intel/nokia project.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/15/n...one-os-called/


So this has been going for a while or eventuated from that one? :confused:


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