Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Ysss highlighteds this in red ...

if everyone just wait's a few month you will see a device that can do almost anything that a pc is capable of and as a phone has the capabilities of anything on the market for a very long time to come.

If you look at the developments by community members on this forum you will see things like the following...

Overclocking
Usb host/OTG
Usb port fault

These are all hardware issues with relation to the software needed to implement.

The work i have been doing is the fix for the usb port, the fix for usb otg (not host) taking the charging method away from the usb port allowing the needed alterations for usb otg (the hardware for this already exsists on the m/b).

When that lot is accomplished and made available for everyone along with all of the other mods currently available then the N900 will in fact become something Nokia did not include within the current design and a lot more usefull as a mobile telephone / computer.

Please also bare in mind that it appears Nokia are moving on from the N900 and the very reason this community and its members needed to carry on where Nokia failed (that is my opinion).

This i am sure will be accomplished within the next month or so and will make a huge difference to this device (N900).

I hope i have explained enough as i dont want to hog or derail this thread but you forced this out of me so had no choice but to try and explain.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

The only way to implement solutions is to identify the target.

To start: who is "we"? Trolls? Moderators? Everyone else? Everyone?

And what is the expected outcome of the change?

After identifying the target, then potential steps toward improvement can be identified.

I'm not being specious or facetious, either. It's just that nebulous appeals for fixes are easy to rally behind in general but go nowhere.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

The mods have all done an exceptional job. Complaining is just arguing against the facts.

That said, I would prefer if a mod is going to close a thread, then just say "Closed". Or give the reason for closing the thread and say "Closed". Making last remarks on the discussion and then closing it is annoying.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I am not sure why this confuses you. WE is the community. There is no mods, no users, no trolls, no fanboys, WE.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I learned a little something in my many years at this sort of thing: addressing the thread in general gets the desired result best. Singling out individuals generates defensiveness-- from the individual but also from anyone agreeing with him/her. Going after the behavior in general fashion really does mitigate that.

Of course, I violate my own advice and THIS sort of thread happens as a result. ;)

EDIT: one caveat-- infraction systems target the individual but can also serve to mitigate backlash if done right. I'm hoping we can get that in place here.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Who said I was confused, PB?

It was an honest, sincere question to make sure we're on the same page. No rank assumptions.

With that down, do you want to facilitate the rest of the improvement process? It is after all your thread.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

To be honest, I brought this up and would like opinions and buy in from everyone on how we can get control over the problems. (of asshats)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

And I'm in no way arguing against that. In fact what I've said and asked supports that very thing. But now I am confused...

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I asked you as kindly as I can to elaborate. You're always free to refuse.

That was one point. If you want to, could you perhaps elaborate a bit on the other ones too?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

And I still think that a vote system that enables all users to help with keeping the forum clean is the best way to solve this.

You raised a point about people that are bad communicators or bad at English might get an unfair treatment with this system and I understand your point but I don't agree on it. Looking at the threads I've stumbled over in my short time here, bad English is pretty common but not something that stops people from helping or trying to ask questions to understand.

Knowing that you can vote someone off the forum, bad English isn't the main point up for evaluation. In my experience, behaviour is evaluated and this is all in line with Texrat's view on things (unless I've totally misunderstood something).

Trying to move threads to "out of sight" places is to treat the symptom and not the problem.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Agreed, and some mitigation can be done, for example the one warning and you're out system almost always gets another thread open with a defensive user complaining, ranging from "I'm sorry, I have <problem>" to "Mods are dolts".

However, a ease-in system, like karma in some forums, kudos, etc, doesn't generate loads of pressure in return, especially if those karma points are precious and the warnings are temporary.

I like the thanks system this far, but what limits it is
(one) it doesn't have a reverse, so it just goes up if you insist,
(two) it stays, if nobody moves the thread to off-topic, so the flame wars are quite the place to get inter-troll thanks,
(three) it's free, and free stuff gets thrown around and finally
(four) some people are way, way above others, for example an announce software post/thread, a piece of news, joke, racks in a 30-to-one ratio, effectively buying 60+ trolls before ratio drops. There is no rule to say a developer can't be an ... well, you know.

If this system had a limit of no more than 3 thanks a day per user (maybe more with posts), it would be more precious (I have suggested this for bugzilla). Also, if infractions would be temporary suspension then the matter need not be definitely resolved. Just wait it out, for someone who gets one per week there's no loss.
However, a pro troller would eat up through his reserves in a day (especially with exponential rates), reverting to a 0% karma, conveniently helping me ignore said views.

For example, on some sites that have nothing to do with torrents, there are comments on pages that are not torrents of any kind. Let's assume that one sees a page with a comment that says "This page that Ndi has no intention of downloading contains a virus!!! (Karma: -2)" and another that says "This page that has nothing illegal on it is fine (Karma: +254)". See how easy it is to get decent info on completely empty pages?

But, this is about closed threads, not policing methods, so I'm retiring. Additionally, I very much doubt anyone will change a working system, especially one integrated with other services.

Oh, one more thing. You said that this generates defensiveness from people agreeing with modded post. This is why the system never works unless it's backed by clear rules. No OT means no OT, there is no disagreeing. If rules say ranting is OK, then ranting passes. This doesn't work for -say- poor taste.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I suspect you'll always see a percentage of even regular members who will vote against another member with petty motives but they're usually such a tiny minority that their efforts fade into noise. I get a consistent 2 to 3 thumbs down on my articles published in Maemo Planet and that consistency tells me it has little to do with the actual article-- but those numbers are so small they have no real effect.

So I'm not too worried about abuse of a member "civility voting system". The concerns tend to focus too much about a loud, shrill minority.

And yes you and I are in alignment on addressing behavior BUT do note I'm a minor moderator here and that ultimately Reggie has been setting the tone.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Minor moderator or not, if you support a suggestion it goes a long way.

And, to get a bit technical, any kind of change requires work with the forum code. Is work done to maintain it? Are there techies to persuade? Should I take this with Reggie instead?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Always agreed. Let them work too, why should the mods carry all the stones?

Not that this isn't an interesting topic, but we've been over this in some detail, you might want the relaxing read.

That's why I like it when I see locations in people's posts. It amplifies my doltometer. Still, this moves my opinion of the user and his/her values, not those of the content, so in the end, it does little above being a nuisance.

Finally, we try to cure the symptom because the cure for the cause is part jail and part execution and that sort of smells of failed management. Not that I'd cry to see some people not come back, but final decisions need a lot more effort. Plus, there's the people I hate more than the trollers, the raiders.

The raider is that special kind of <profanity> that always bites at you and pushes, and kicks, until you become serious about acting, then plays straight for a while to gain sympathy from people who do not have a full list of posts. then bites. Then starts dancing around rules. Screams when warned, but as soon as the warning expires posts a thread stirring as much anger as possible. We had a case here, and after banning people still came up asking what happened to poor <>.

Oh dear, you got me started again.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I'm sorry, but you lost me. Am I more of a dolt for declaring that I'm from Sweden? Or just for declaring where I'm from?

I'd say the cure is shared responsibility.

s'ry.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Patience is for people that die waiting for something to happen.

You guys are all trying to reinvent the wheel. Just making a ranking system for comments and a flagging system for threads is good enough for tiny little sites like craigslist and engadget. That includes adding a rants and raves section for both trolls AS WELL AS fanboys. Of course, this means that moderators would have to allow anger and disappointment threads, which, they have been unwilling to do.

But does it matter in six months? Nope. By then, people will have already moved on to Meego and this board can return to the small niche crowd that it's used to. Someone new will pop in once in a while with the, "Hey I just bought this on ebay, does the n900 do this?" and the answer is, "Nope, one guy was working on it and he quit."

The opportunity to make a "community" died when Nokia quit. Maemo could have said, "You know what, f*ck them. Nokia orphaned us, we don't need them. Let's make an effort to port or develop as many apps for maemo as possible, so that when Meego users come back here for apps, we can tell them, 'Sure you can have somegreatapp.DEB, just flash your phone to maemo6.'"

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

You're generalizing.

I sure don't mind a section devoted to venting. Granted it only addresses the surface of the issues, but many times that's all some people are after anyway.

So yeah, if we had such a "quarantined" section I'd have no problem with allowing those threads there. But I get the idea Reggie disagrees.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Why do you think Reggie disagrees? Because we have not heard from him? Or has something else or some other communications made you think this?

I would love to hear what Reggie has to say on the subject.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Allow me to ask this... what does Nokia feel/say/think about this community becoming as disenfranchised - even in bits - about the prior Maemo 5 iteration being cut at the knees in terms of updating to the next iteration of their Linux based OS for their phones?

I mean, if they lose a percentage of this forum, they lose the people that would evangelize the Maemo/MeeGo platform for them... for free. I doubt they have even taken notice of what's going on; but to have people that work at Nokia hang around here and not take notice of how some folks are just.. not happy right now.

How will that lend itself to the next OS iteration? Fancy bells and whistles, hardware can only satisfy so many people. Support, communication and a community that's not in disarray (even if it's only bits right now, this could be seen as the tipping point) do not help a company.

The thread closings, the rank anger, the "trolls", well-established members not being happy... those things don't work well for an up and coming release.

Oh... and the solution for threads where folks get riled up? One part is in place... "Off Topic" already exists. Change the description to something more of an area where the "law" is as loose as the tongues in that area. Reggie already pulled that area's ability to update the front page of ITT and the side bar here. And threads that are volatile, move them there.

No need for commentary from the person that moves it other than "Moved from X to Y, <link to Forum Rules>" and go from there.

With that said... I would love to hear what Nokia thinks on this subject.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I was wondering. Can anyone break it down for me? You know the details of it?

Maemo Devices is a subdivision of Nokia? Who decides on the Hardware? Who decides on the software?

Will Maemo Devices become Meego Devices? Will the people Meego/Maemo like move into a building or they'll just work remotely?.

Maybe someone can point me to a historical record. Like the your latest blog post Textrat. That was quite informative.

Is there really a support forum from Nokia for the n900?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Quite frankly, they got away with it in the past. 770 wasn't supported by OS2008, n800 nor n810 are supported by Maemo 5.

The problem is that stats have proven them right. 770 sold a few, n800/n810 sold more, n900 sold a lot more.

Why change a formula that works? (not that I agree with it)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Also, I got another Idea. Other than the Quarantine Category and voting System.

The questions about the n900 are usually what spiral into flame wars. They virtually are the same and quite common. Most are even answered in the Wiki. So we can copy past from there into this super thread.

An FAQ Thread with very common and Specific Questions in the first post. No posting is allowed in that. So the info doesnt get lost. Mods or/and those who are willing to help can add the questions and answers as they arise. (suggestions by pm only)

Things Like:

Can I search Email?
Yes. with this app:.,.....

Can I use USSD?
Yes. after 1.2

Can I have threaded sms?
Yes with this app

Can I search contacts by styping?
Yes slide out the keyboad and type..

You get my drift?

Edit: So if anyone asks. is the n900 this is it that. we slap that thorough feature thread link there without saying a word. No word, No flame. It'll of course be stickied and on top of all n900 related catogries.

It can have questions about anything from can I do this on the n900? to was the n900 made by aliens? You know all sortsa question HW and SW

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Au contraire.

What I meant was, seeing a post from someone that uses "r" instead of "are" is a lot more forgivable for someone from -say- Tokio (which, in fact, I admire because it's harder to assimilate a language with different mnemonics) than, say, someone from the Devon region, who is surrounded by a pleasant round and clear English all his/her life.

I usually hold English-speaking countries residents at a higher standard. As I do in all other areas. I am more demanding of clarity and fact-checking from someone signing their post with an MVP than I am from someone who asks a question or simply offers an opinion.

It might well be discriminatory, but while it's understandable for a person to mix a few organs, especially if it's all new to them, I don't think it's fine for a medic to do so. It's not like it's an unforgivable mistake, they just don't start from zero like everyone else.

Personal preference. And I hold myself to this as well.

Maybe. But it's the only way to get a better wheel. Otherwise we'd all live in very nicely tuned caves. You do have a point, however, some of those mentioned sites have a system we could copy.

However, those are CONTENT sites. They publish articles, and allow people to offer two cents about it. Endgadget, e.g., only shows the first best 10 or so out of (sometimes) hundreds.

If we had that, we'd be squeaky clean.

A discussion forum can't have that. Our contents is our posts. Imagine Endgadget if it had no articles, but their pages contained free posts by the commenters.

The following reply is not directly aimed at you, even if quoted, but rather to all who think "so what" when I get stiffed by Nokia.

Dear sowhatters,

It so happens that I am a geek. An IT pro who is well versed in the art of current flowing in tiny bits. As a result, I am well liked (or needed) by my friends, coworkers, and a bunch of people I never met but who know of me.

As a result (and against all comics on the Internet), I am at the center of the said community when it comes to technology and people from all over come for advice.

My purchase of N900 has others linked to this decision. In fact, I have never ordered ONE N900. I have never been alone in owning a phone model, but always the first. Others come for advice and I recommend Nokia for its service, quality, uniform UI and assure them that throughout the decade or so I was a loyal customer, I have never had any major complaints.

I recommend phones based on how people work and use their devices, pairing them with the features they need and thus far everyone was happy.

Stiffing me loses not one customer, not one disgruntled fanboi that will come back tomorrow, but someone who is able to sway several other customers.

People who studied marketing know this to be "word of mouth" and the power it holds. And people who are any good in said marketing do all they can to maintain the aura of quality that surrounds their brand.

What Nokia has here is a small community of geeks, who are themselves leaders of opinion in their groups, who write articles, who have blogs, some who make corporate purchase decisions.

I am convinced that ignoring (or worse) the community here will not be good for Nokia.

I'm not saying it will die of because of a forum. I'm saying that while at the great rift's edge, you'd do well not to finger people who can push back.

Hmm, maybe that's what N900 Push means.

How is this different from a wiki (functionally speaking)?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

ndi,
Thank you! This is something that some companies really do not get. Early adapters and enthus
iastic are the best marketers what they really can get. These people will do hours and hours of marketing job for free if they are treated right and listened. I do not mean that all requests should be fulfilled but communication...at least e.g. council in our case pays eventually. I have studied industrial management and marketing as minor and lately I have been face-palming quite much while watching what Nokia has been doing :| Or actually not doing. I´m starting to think that that company has huge management and organizational issues.*

I´m also some kind of central point around my friends when it comes to asking advice before buying new technology. Whether it be television, computers or gadgets they will ask me even though i really do not always know any better than them.


*This is just one of blogs what i follow but blog comments like this do not encourage me even thought they are from single people :| seeing too many of them makes me worry.
http://www.arcticstartup.com/discuss...Only-at-Nokia-

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

slender I agree with the comments in that article to some extent. It's somewhat ironic that a communications company can't or won't communicate with their users regarding their product. This is especially true for early-adopters, who are more likely to pay attention to company communications.

Then on the other side of the coin, Nokia gives us dates for releases and doesn't live up to them. Quite frankly I don't believe Nokia when they put a date out for a specific thing because history shows that they won't live up to it.

Nokia lost my trust bigtime with their constant delays and lack of communication with everything concerning the N900. A good company would never disappoint their customer this many times and not learn a thing from it.

The community support has been a refreshingly great experience for me however and it's one of the major attractions for getting a Meego handset over another. I'm just hoping HTC will make a Meego phone because those guys over at XDA are awesome too.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Hmm. Good Question. Well from experience. (I work in IT support, god help all who do).
1. People click on whats obvious, evident and familiar. Up there in Maemo.org. Talk has a Tab, but wiki is deeper in. So people are more likely to end up in the Forums, than in the Wiki.
2. Wikis are made in general comprehensive terms. People's "touch" is usually missing. So people will again tend to go the forums.
3. People tend to respond better to information presented in Question and Answer form. Specially if the questions are phrased in a similar manner to what occurs in their minds.

When I had my Xperia X1. I used to go to xda-developers all the time. For an entire year. I only made 2 posts because I simply found my answer in the first stickied (Non-Post) Super Thread for a given Topic.

Edit: Oh and almost NOONE uses the searching function. which is essential to find things in a structured wiki.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Thank you. :D

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

All valid points. Allow me mine:

1) If you don't search, you're dead. The FAQ for a N900 will be fifty miles long, as evidenced by the hundreds of posts of each release with tips and tricks, new functionality, rediscovered functionality, etc. I dare say I expect each release to have over 500 support posts. Add hardware, apps, fixes, etc.

2) It duplicates info. Actually, it triplicates it, since it's likely already in the forums. Someone will wiki it to make it a condensed, linkable, universal form. Then reposted. Also dupes all search results.

3) Items in Q-A form is quite inefficient, compared to a white-paper style of the wiki. The post would be even humongous-er.

Finally, it's hard to maintain an FAQ for a device this complex. Once you get past the first -say- 15 or so questions, you start getting into the deeper end, where you need to sort by importance, check for results yourself, etc.

People have this annoying habit of leaving a thread forever if they get an answer, so you never see if it really worked.

Not to say I wouldn't like the idea, but it's a lot of work and unlikely to help people, because of it's size. Also, needs to be maintained, voted, pushed. Trimming it would help, but then it would be of limited use.

Plus, if your aim is limitation of useless traffic, it only works in theory. We still get posts after info is in pinned threads, wiki, Google, even on a post above theirs.

However, if you feel like volunteering, I'll help too whenever I get free.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Or maybe, like the Ubuntu forums (where the aim is to share information), as soon as a problem has been resolved, it is marked as such and closed. No-one to hijack the thread, and indexed properly by Google and [enter search engine here].

Combine this with proper tagging and appropriate thread titles, and you end up with a good database of questions and (more importantly) answers.

What is required for this? Strict rules, in specific forums, that define how questions should be asked, and how moderators need (or should I say, are allowed) to work. Obviously these rules should only apply to specific forums, as I said, such as the N900-hardware forum, or application support.

Those forums don't exist, I hear you say? Well, that's another discussion then.

But just to give an idea about what I'm talking about: half the threads in Applications are app/update announcements. That forum is impossible to navigate. 'Nuff said.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

You raise a good point. A while back I threw out the idea that maybe splitting these forums into separately-purposed ones might be the best overall solution for making purpose clear. The way I see it, Community/General/OffTopic could have been completely separate from Technical parts, maybe even just visibly. Of course, if the separation was truly physical that could cause thread management issues...

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

The problem is searching might give you thread. It's finding the useful information form the hundreds of posts that forces people to just give up and post a new thread

The problem is not availability. it's accessibility. I know all the information is there in the forums and wiki. But it's cumbersome to find.

True. but we don't HAVE to have it all in Q/A. When it gets deeper. We can then go to Thread Links. or even better. Post Links. that answer the deeper questions of a give topic

No solution will be easy for a growing forum. There will be no magic here. If the problem is lack of many power. Then the admins can simply request more mods or contributers. I'm sure many wouldn't mind.. Sure some of the new mods will be problematic. but steps must be taken. Either we go drastic or just leave things be. There won't be an easy answer

Of course there is no solution that will fix the problem completely. But atleast now. The answer to a rogue thread would be to simply point it to the one of the super threads. Instead of answers that provoke threads to spiral. like (Ever heard of search?) or (If you don't know that by now, you shouldn't be here).

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

as i see it, the reason threads gets closed down because theyre are mass-duplicates.

there already is a ongoing thread about all these topics, but people want their own topic.

respect goes to you penguinbait for all you have contributed though!

...many people though come here and do nothing but complaining, starting new duplicate threads all the time

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I think this is only an issue for a small minority of people. Most simply don't bother to search at all. ;)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Well, to be honest, search could be improved a little.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

The best way to improve search is put thought upfront into the content, tags and title of a post/thread.

Far too many posts here where those are afterthoughts.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Tags are useless, because they have no voting system and any one who thinks he's being smart abuses them. I see flame wars, jokes, hint of IQs, you name it.

Tags should be fixed.

i.e.

Fixed by birth:
* Device names (N900, N810, etc)
* Platform names (fremantle, diablo)
* Hardware components (battery, screen, gps)

Semi-mobile
* Every time someone tries a free-form tag, a tag is suggested.
* Free form tags don't show
* Free form tags get added up. Once they show in at least 10 threads, they are upped to a moderator for acceptance
* Moderator acceptance is conservative
* Once accepted, they become available.

Mobile
* Applications that exit devel get their own tag, upon promotion to testing (or extras)

This way, a thread could be tagged N900, battery, fMMS. That's useful.

I think it's a mistake to leave stuff as anonymous and free to all. We get children here, sometimes literally. No sharp objects please.

--

Search is weird. I tried to search for "everyone left" and it thinks the keyword is "left". "battery life" (quoted) gets me <quote>battery, life<quote>. I think it works, though, could be cosmetic.

--

Finally, we have -like- 50% thread hijacks here. Almost never is a thread ending with a solution unless it's really uninteresting. E.g., see the thread "Sick of all the closing threads". An eyeopener.

Ability to rename threads would be great. Delegate.

You need sub-mods.

I don't know how you do it. I visit the forums daily sometimes, and every day the "new threads" is overflowed at the 500 thread mark. I can't even keep up looking at them.

What you need is sub-mods, people you trust not to be idiotic and engage in childish behavior, and give them partial moderator access. Rename threads, maintain tags maybe edit and remove posts at request only.

That way some parts of the forum that are most active (N900) are patrolled, and threads could be cleaned up as "[Solved]", etc etc. Ideally, more bracket tags could be added, such as [Duplicate] [NeedInfo] [NeedExpert]. Or [Troll] (I wish).

I like the idea of OP editing thread title, but frankly, that assumed the OP comes back. And is not a doofus. And knows how. Sub-Mods can maintain this successfully, if given strict instructions. E.g., can only rename threads terminally hijacked, solved issues, duplicate threads. Dupes can then be reviewed and merged/deleted by a full mod.

It sounds viable to me. Little texrats all over the forum. The pitter-patter of little feet. It'll be like Bioshock around here.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

That doesn't make tags useless, ndi. As long as the right tags are attached to the thread, it will be found.

We allow novelty tags, but at the same time try to make sure they don't go too far.

Reggie just recently enabled authors to change their thread titles.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I missed that fact but my experience moderating for the last few days makes a lot more sense now. :D

Seems to be a good move.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

You are correct.

One last question, since we are now quite far from closing threads: Did you ever use tags to find anything? I mean successfully locate the info you wanted. This is not a trick question.

Finally, either tags are weird or search is broken? I thought tags brought up all threads tagged with a certain tag, but I clicked on maybe 50 of the 70 listed and they each bring up a single thread? This can't be right? Is it me? Even "n900" tag brings up one thread.

Also, some of those tags seem to be most recent searcher rather than all-time favs, some recent stuff that happens is pretty big. It can't possibly be that "can't connect to repositories" (one thread, 2 replies) is bigger than the smallest font?

Did tags get reset somehow? (though old joke PR1.2 thread tags still linger).

Should off-topic tags be in there?

And, good to hear changes still happen (@ renaming threads).

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

back to closing threads. A softer solution is to have a "barbecue yard" subforum where flaming threads are moved to. There flaming and ranting is allowed and moderation is more lax. Thus people have a place to rant at and those who are not interested in reading vents are not forced to read them.

In other moves to promote informative threads, threads in off-topic,competitors and the new "barbecue yard" should not not get promoted to "active topics" sidebar.