Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

There are many sides to this issue, naturally. Resources are never infinite. Suppose you want to create a new type of device. Do you start the work by providing new features (great browsing) or existing features... Then again, most people that use PIM already have their PIM devices and PIM ecosystem ready. Implementing PIM functionality properly definitely is not a trivial issue.

However, If I can play the devil's advocate here, the _one_ question I would really like to ask from you is:

If PIM is really such a great feature, then why didn't Psions or Sharp Zauruses or any number of PDA devices in the last 10 or so years, any of those that provided the features you were talking about, then become wildly successful?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Psions were wildly successful and this recent article should help clear up why they ultimately failed (mainly due to poor management who lacked the nerve to innovate, among other reasons including the sale of some operating system software to Nokia...)

As far as PIM is concerned, I can understand to an extent why Nokia don't want to provide it (is it because it competes with the E-series phones?) but if PIM is a barrier to customers buying the Internet Tablet, doesn't it become a pointless debate? Shouldn't Nokia be offering customers what they want rather than telling customers how it should be?

(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets, and it's a question that never fails to be asked when I show my tablet to other people - their reaction when I say there is no supported PIM/sync functionality is never positive, and generally they rapidly lose interest because they already have a PIM device and don't see the need to carry yet another device in addition to their PIM.

Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it". While I don't necessarily agree with the form factor of this device (too big) I have to admit that it offers compelling functionality that could also be offered on the Internet Tablets.

In a few years instead of asking why did Psion fail, maybe we will be asking why did Nokia (Internet Tablets) fail... and I hope the answer isn't "because they didn't offer PIM". ;)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Yeah, we can't blame a good device for its failure. The majority of the time, poor execution, especially not properly gaging and responding to user demand, is to blame for such fiascos. History is replete with examples.

There is no awesome product or advent that piss-poor management can't destroy.

EDIT: generalizations aside, I'll back the local consensus opinion. Even if Nokia itself does not offer PIM functionality, the proper API hooks need to be there. And if nothing else, as a hardcore user I want to be able to sync my contacts. I don't care what semantics are employed to dismiss that as not in the tablet's scope, people want it. They want to be able to sync with Outlook or their phones or any other service and manage ONE set of contacts that all devices share. We're sensible that way. And we're lazy. We're efficient to a fault. PCs and smartphones have spoiled us on the concept and we don't understand why another communications device, regardless of its raisson d'etre, doesn't offer that basic functionality. We want to email and Skype people in our Outlook contacts from our tablet if that's what we have with us. Better yet, we want an online service like Google or Yahoo to manage our contacts and the tablet to take advantage of it.

We don't care that this is an N-series device. This is what we want.

I know from sad experience that there are some very rank assumptions made within the walls of Nokia, ones that have little bearing with the reality I experience. One of my favorites: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Rubbish. There are other factors, and it behooves us to perform root cause analysis, construct MEANINGFUL, well-designed, scientific polls and find exactly what they are.

No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers. And no, in saying that I am NOT pointing fingers at the hardworking tablet developers. They're doing what they've been instructed to do.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Indeed, and as Milhouse explains there are some counter-arguments here. However, to play Devil's Advocate myself:

Why did Nokia do the Internet Tablet? Lots of mobile phones and PDAs have Web and email access on the move (most of them have better email than the IT OS devices). "Most people that use Internet on the move already have their portable Internet devices and ecosystem already." Can you see the logical fallacy of your argument?

I used to be a heavy PIM user on my Psion (and never used the sync!), but I'm not going to carry around a Revo to act as a diary *and* an N800 to access the web.

Arguably, I'd probably use the Revo more and fall back to my phone or EPOC Web/Opera for web access. So now I'm PIMless.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

- Open source SIP client: I have asked around and yes there will be SIP functionality based on open source components at some point. More info probably to come as soon as some of the people involved come back from holidays. In any case there are not many secrets about this if you follow the Telepathy development upstream.

- PIM. While SIP means one and only one thing to everybody knowing about SIP, we can't tell the same about PIM. This is not a question we are avoiding, not even publicly: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/339 . My request when I wrote that was to leave the "PIM" word behind and move into feature descriptions. I believe one day the tablets will accomplish most of the wished features (that fit in our strategy and understanding of where are the trends going). I also believe that we won't be blocking anyone to develop PIM functionality at their own taste and urgencies. You can wait us or you can push us following the process and being accurate about the functionality you really want.

- Please forget that thing about the tablet not having feature X, Y, Z not to compete with other Nokia products. It doesn't play any role, specially not in the PIM topic. It is not difficult to see how Nokia is launching products that compete with other Nokia products, it is a way to have a rich portfolio and keep being in the top.

- The PIM/sync equation nowadays on top of maemo (say Linux + GNOME + Nokia tablet) is not simple, no matter how you look at it. First you have many platform components to be synchronized, then you have a mixture of open and closed protocols and formats to support officially if you want to make end users happy, and on top of this you have some significant UI challenges. Sure, it can be done and very probably someone will do it (perhaps Nokia). But it's not simple, and perhaps slightly more complex than few years ago - specially if you want to design a good solution for the forthcoming years.

And 2 comments to Milhouse aside, totally personal:

1. "(Lack of) PIM is always mentioned in reviews of Nokia Internet Tablets". As a journalist my only conclusion of this is that many users of PIM software get curious about the tablets and write reviews about them. I don't think they are representative, no matter how much and how loud they insist about this. This is why I personally prefer to concentrate in feature requests, not buying the whole suite (but I don't decide about this topic in Nokia).

2. "Look at Palm with the Foleo, as they seem to "get it"." Well, if Palm doesn't "get" the PIM story, who will? Of course they look at their strengths and they push the PIM.

Oh, and also...

texrat: "Nokia phones don't sell well in the US because Americans don't like them". Have you *really* heard this within the walls of Nokia? I'm getting really curious about who you are and where do you work. The walls of my team and the whole Multimedia unit provide more intelligent arguments than this.

texrat: "No more assumptions. No more excuses. No more disconnects between the company and its customers." All these are bold assumptions themselves. You say you work at Nokia and you seem to know my team. Can you please provide examples of assumptions, excuses, disconnects - and how you would address them better? Since my identity is public it is easy for you to contact me in the way that suits you best. Your complaints are done at a community level, but you know or you could know all the internal facts. It is great to see that you have apparently clear and straight answers to all the issues. Please share the details, because as I see the picture inside/outside things are simply not as simple. Even if they are doable.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Thanks for asking such an easy one :-)
Others have already answered most of it, but as it is asked from me here's my take :
As Mil said, Psion PDAs (series 3 and 5) actually were wildly successful, especially here in Europe, despite being very expensive. They still have a rabid fan base today, that will not use anything else. The Zaurus line, despite its age, is still very popular in Japan ; Sharp just couldn't be bothered to market it anywhere else. And Palm, of course, was top gun for a long time in its day.
The real sense of your question, I guess, and a very relevant one, is "where are PDAs today" ? My opinion is that PDA have faltered as a market because they were very specialized devices - they mostly did one thing right, the PIM part. Multimedia was so-so, Net access too, etc.
But that doesn't mean PIM functions have suddenly become irrelevant, just that users want devices that do many things. The dominant PIM devices today are smartphones, who also do music, video, GPS nav and of course voice.
See what I'm getting to ? ITs are all the rage now, but if they stick to their "I'm just an IT" motto, they could end up where the PDAs are now, soon enough, when more multi-purpose devices catch up...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I'll readily say I once worked for the Fort Worth production facility. While there I heard so many crazy things about what people did or did not want that had little or no bearing in reality. How did I know? I asked people. For instance, I heard many broad assumptins about what the youth market wanted that didn't sound right to me. So I conducted a survey of a computer gaming community, comprised mainly of 12 to 20 year olds. I got some very good feedback of what they wanted from a phone, and why they were choosing Motorola, Samsung and LG. I passed this information on to the proper channels, but I noted later in official communications that it wasn't considered seriously (one was our naming conventions-- management does not appear to understand the value young people place on silly phone names like RAZR, and how they sneer at our number schemes).

The same holds true for the internet tablets. One example of what I'm referring to can be found in bugzilla comments from Nokia. I can't provide a specific offhand but as I recall or rediscover one I will bring it up. Same for examples other than those in bugzilla.

As for my bold assumptions: you are correct. I was simplifying there for effect. Please note that I'm not meaning to slam Nokia; I love the company. But some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback and it's something they need to do. There is a mounting frustration among the tablet users and occasional feelings of abandonment... and even if those feelings are more perception than reality, perception creates reality. One reality is that the reverse logistics process was horrible (that is not an exaggeration) and angered many, many people here. That is certainly not your fault, or mine-- but it is Nokia's. When people refer to Nokia (and that includes me) that address is not limited to any certain group; I get the feeling you sometimes think it means you. It's an address looking for an identifier, so if the shoe fits fine, if not, then it's not meant for that reader.

I also know that fulfilling some of the most desired requests is not that simple. I understand that there are priorities. But when I see this community's priorities not matching up with the company's I have to wonder if the proper pulse-taking and communications are taking place, and if both "sides" have the proper information to realize that either Feature X is just not feasible at this time or that Nokia needs to shift course to match the needs/wants of the customer base it wants to cultivate, maintain and expand. New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here. Believe it-- we've seen it.

People love the tablet. Ironically, it's a victim of its own success. Since it can do nearly anything, people want it to. That's a dilemma for Nokia, I realize. Personally I think your staff should be easily doubled-- but I'm aware you may not have 100% say over that.

Once again, I appreciate your recent efforts and I apologize for my lengthy posts. There is a lot to say. Speaking of which, are you aware you have PMs blocked? ;)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

"It has no PIM or sync capability" is a black/negative mark that is pretty common to all N800s reviews... adding PIM would be another tick in the box for the N800, but whether that is a good enough reason alone for adding PIM I don't know. I'd sure like PIM/sync functionality, and I suspect many others would too. Whether it can be delivered purely by the open source community, I don't know - integration with the OS would be nice.

What I mean here is that Palm "get it" because the Foleo is a "companion" to the mobile phone, which is a function I can very easily see the N800 performing by syncing up with S60 and other Symbian (and even Windows?) mobile phones etc. Why do I need two contact lists, one on my N800 and one on my Phone? Why not allow me to edit/view/search my contacts on my N800 but have them synced with the phone so all the details are available to me on the phone if/when I need to dial using only the phone? etc. etc.

The N800 as a "companion" probably can't be achieved without buy-in from Nokia as it cuts across several platforms, but the overall functionality could be quite compelling.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Qim, thanks for inquiring and answering about this. The way I see it, the problem lies in the "at some point" part. Almost ever since I've had my 770 (dec. 2005), there have been tantalizing (if sometimes obscure) hints now and then about some new step being taken towards that goal, generally mentioning Telepathy. And no, I don't follow its "development upstream" : all I see is that 19 months later there is still nothing that a normal user can install and use, and no commitment beyond "at some point". Meanwhile, we have seen several versions of Gizmo (which works on the 770, within its own proprietary limitations), and now Skype (which doesn't).
As Texrat said, it is not a matter of thinking "black or white" here. Between having *NO* PIM functionality whatsoever (and trying to pretend that it doesn't matter :-), and trying to be all things to all people, there probably is a reasonable middle ground that would actually help reviews, reputation and sales, at an acceptable cost.
In local forums over here I have seen countless times questions such as "Can I open/edit my Word docs with this strange new thing ? My Excel sheets ?"... When the community answer is "No", most of the time people shrug and move on, even if this is not their #1 use case for a mobile device, because in their mind the IT moves from the "serious" to "toy" category. Nokia loses a sale, and they lose the opportunity to find out what innovative things the IT is *really* good for.
Again, compatibility with Word/Excel files (and OpenDocument, this being 2007!) could be achieved with properly packaged Abiword and Gnumeric maemo versions, in the proclaimed spirit of the tablets.
The exact same remark applies here. How many times do we see the question "Can I sync my XXX calendar with this ?" ? How many potential users turn away and look no further when the answer is, "No, there isn't even a calendar" ?
Nokia only needs to choose and fulfill ONE value of "XXX" above and the point will be moot. Any of these look doable :

- Outlook. Probably 99% of potential users. My lowly Nokia 6021 phone has a calendar that syncs with Outlook through Nokia's own PC Suite. Same for Symbian phones, so it's not like rocket science. And on every forum on this planet in which there is at least one IT thread, there is at least one "Help ! Nokia PC Suite doesn't recognize my N800 !" post...

- SyncML. For the open-protocols crowd. Again, the expertise is in-house. And with the variety of SyncML software out there (for phones, palms, pocket PCs, Outlook etc.) that's a lot of birds killed with one stone...

- Google Cal. For the Web 2.0 diehards. Evidently the Maemo team is big on Google. Also the Maemo team is good at Python. So if TahitiBob can do it alone, they can do it too.

And of course, as Mil just said, synching with (at least Nokia) phones should be a no-brainer.

How's that for specs ? :-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

fpp, awesome post. Excellent example of details. You said it much better than I could, thanks.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Sorry to stick to this issue, but I disagree quite strongly on this. Let me start by saying that I love the Psion devices. The Psion 5 still does some things better than nearly any device out there in the market. I think it was a wildly successful device in many terms: engineering, design etc.

But I cannot really buy "wildly successful" in terms of popularity and sales. Nor to any other non-connected PDA device. Zaurus was discontinued some years ago. I don't believe it's a question of "not marketing". Truly great devices and services gain popularity with "zero marketing", and vice versa, no amount of marketing can help to really sell a non-useful device or service.

Quoting numbers from: http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/mhist.htm Be it 25000 Psions a month or 163000 devices year or whatever, that is nowhere near even moderately successful. By successful I mean mass market appeal. A device that the majority of people would seem worthwhile to buy. PDA's focusing on personal information management have never reached this target. Mobile phones are wildly successful.

However...

I do agree with this thing, however. I use PIM functions on my E61 phone, since it is my primary device. I use the PC suite to automatically sync with my Outlook calendar. Even if my tablet would have PIM functions, I simply wouldn't use them. Writing down the entries wouldn't be as comfortable or as fast as with my phone. I don't carry the tablet in my pocket all the time so that I could check my calendar or notes.

The IT currently isn't the primary device, it is a mobile companion device, next to my smartphone. I am not trying to say that PIM functions aren't useful in the right context and right device, but I don't really see the tablet currently being that right device. And once again, resources are not infinite.

Still, there are devices in the market that do only "one thing really well" - I guess you can name some of them - and they are wildly successful. If the PIM devices of yesteryear did PIM really well, and well, "nobody bought them", I at least think that tells something about having PIM on your non-primary device.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I think "wildly successful" needs to be quantified. The devices such as Psion found an incredibly strong following among some truly pioneering, ardent users. But were they "wildly popular" in general? No. Did they create and maintain a really dedicated legion of rabid fans? Oh yeah. They N800 has the same potential. Heck, I'd like to think the tablet platform can even exceed it, not just functionally but popularly... that all comes down to communication and execution.

Oh, and there's still some dissonance in your rebuttals, ragnar. One reason cell phones are incredibly more successful than PDAs could very well be their innate use combined with PIM functionality. ;)

Finally, some of use see the cell phone as the companion device. That's the point you're not quite getting. We use the phone as a mere modem and the N800 as the main device. Isn't that one of the beauties of Skype? To that end, we want our phone contacts synced to the tablet, so we can call people via Skype. And it doesn't take "infinite resources" to accomplish this, ragnar, so I'm hoping we can avoid those silly exaggerations and pretend we're realistic adults here. ;) It requires an extra head or three. Get Nokia to fund it. Based on the very obvious user feedback here, it will pay off. Or, keep telling the users (hyperbole ahead) they don't want what they want. Which tactic provides the most potential for success?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Thanks. English is not my native language, and I tend to be somewhat perfectionist, so this does take time. And all this has been said before, but it's worth summing up now that we have @nokia ears around :-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ragnar.... annual sales of 163,000 for the Psion 3a in 1994 is pretty damned good! Psion were/are a tiny company, and remember those figures are from THIRTEEN years ago when most people didn't know what a PDA was let alone know about or have access to the internet. And global corporations such as Nokia themselves were shifting nowhere near as many phones in 1994 as they do now. The Psion devices certainly had mass market appeal, it's just that in the early 1990s that mass market was significantly smaller than the tech savvy world we live in today.

I'm not sure what you're basing your judgment on, but some historical perspective might be in order. :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Actually the Zaurus line was only "officially" discontinued early this year, and despite this the latest models are still easily available through import dealers (like in Germany). I still think that if Sharp had localized, sold and supported them abroad the audience would have gone way beyond the enthusiast Linux hacker crowd, as it obviously did in Japan. Same for the Psions : if those machines had been at today's electronic gadgets prices, of course they'd had sold more. But they were available everywhere and visible in shops, which the tablets are not. To me both qualify as "successful".
Don't you find it strange that enquiries about sales of the 770/N800 are met with polite demurral ? Don't you find it strange that even lowly phones carry PIM essentials as a matter of fact ?
Our different points of view definitely come from totally opposed use cases. My Tablet IS my primary device, as the Psion then the Zaurus were before. In fact I didn't have a phone until I bought the tablet, and I chose the cheapest Nokia model that had EDGE and BT at the time. I don't want a device that's more expensive than the tablet, with yet another keyboard and big screen. To me, a phone is a modem. Sometimes I speak into it, but not much. And I only use its calendar function because the tablet has none -- but I'd take GPE or Dates instead of that trinket any day if only they could sync with something.

Maybe Nokia employees have overly easy access to luxury phones, and that skews their judgment :-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I think Gil had it right when he asked for moving into specific features. Contact syncing in my books is a somewhat different feature than "PIM" in general. The tablet already has contact book synchronization features for the protocols it is supporting (gmail, jabber). Being able to get all the contacts from your phone ... well, if you can't call these contacts, that feature might not be so useful. For that specific feature, yes, it's already there to some extent. The Maemo Skype app afaik also does this for its contacts. As of infinite resources, I didn't mean that it would take infinite resources, rather that there isn't infinite resources to do every feature in the world.

But, doing "PIM" means so many things to different people, so I really think you could be specific in what exactly the device should be able to do. After that one could estimate how much work doing that would take.

In general, there is the issue of providing offline versus online applications. PIM is one good example of this. Hopefully we all agree that the real value of PIM comes from the fact that the information there is valid and sychronized throughout all the sources where this information is accessed from. There are online services that essentially allow the user to perform PIM actions (calendar, notes etc.) And such services can usually be developed to target multiple devices, the IT included.

That's also a part of the fundamental idea of an internet tablet device: instead of creating an offline client application for every feature/service that the user would want to use, the tablet (with its browser and other internet applications) should provide access to these online services. This is of course not yet fully realized, but it's an innate part of the thinking. Offline applications are costly to develop, maintain and update. Of course the issue is not black and white, but it is more on the range of shades: how much of a feature does the device provide on its online capabilities and how much is also available offline. With "infinite resources" there are thousands Nokia developers available for us and we create and maintain great offline clients for every conceivable feature, but that's really not the idea behind the internet tablet.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I agree with your points, ragnar, and it looks to me they've already been addressed in previous posts here... that includes the possibility of online contact hosting, which may very well be the preferred approach. I suggest a survey. ;)

Oh and I am REALLY LOVING this conversation lately!!! :D

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

The lack of a coherent PIM (even just Contacts) strategy on the Tablets is leading to the ridiculous situation where every communications application implements their own Contacts solution. Look at the situation we have today, Google Talk manages it's own contacts, Gizmo manages it's own contacts and now Skype also manages it's own completely seperate contacts list. I don't use the appalling eMail client on the Internet Tablet but that also has it's own database of email addresses which are seperate from every other application I've just mentioned.

If the Tablets had a coherent system-wide Contacts database, all these applications could tap into a single list and avoid the duplicated data, increased development effort and incompatible GUIs. Add a system-wide Calendar and To-Do list along with phone or PC syncing and voila, Internet Tablet PIM for the masses.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I'm creating a separate post to go off on a little "rant" here. ;)

Before it was even launched, the 770 had a scope. It had an agenda. Nokia defined the product and laid out their plans for its deployment. That included intended use.

Those last two words are key-- lay them aside for a moment.

The N800 refined this. Suddenly the device had a home: Multimedia Devices (hence the N prefix). Under that aegis, its intended use as an internet tablet was broadened a bit. Multimedia applications were now a must. The argument could be made that the current state of the Internet supports this, as Flash and other media formats are driving viewership. No contradiction, no fuzziness there... just an expanded scope. For sake of the point I'm going to make I'll gloss over the debate over how effective or ineffective this effort has been. The point is the scope.

Users have been of course thrilled over easter eggs like the FM radio, because it enables them to shed a device. It functions well enough that most are happy with this solution, from what I can see. But this can cause confusion for people being told the N800 is an INTERNET TABLET. The FM radio is sweet, but certainly not internet related.

The confusion is compounded further by, of all ironic aspects, the degree of openness and other functionality. A programmable Linux device! With WiFi! And VOIP! That's not an internet tablet folks-- that's a new form factor for laptops. Call it a palm top (:D).

So here we come to the point: the device's scope is, to an extent, now getting out of Nokia's hands. The users have taken the ball and run. They see potential that isn't confined by the borders of the Multimedia Device defintion. They see that this little jewel crosses into Enterprise Devices with swaggering ease... that is, as long as the support is there.

But Nokia sticks steadfastedly to prior goals. Qgil and ragnar now ask for community input (thank God for that!) on specifics but, we've already provided it, many times. Maybe it needs to now be hunted, gathered, collated and stapled for ease of consumption, but it's there! We've offered our feedback. We've explained our needs and wants ad infinitum. And now we the community find ourselves wrestling for a steering wheel because we're impatient with progress and argumentive over Nokia's current scope for the platform. Nokia isn't going to give up the bus, but maybe we can find consensus. Nokia would certainly benefit from listening to users that represent potential new customers and then changing course where viable to grab more market share.

I don't think the debate needs to be contentious though (we have recent proof right here) nor does it need to dwell on absolutes and unrealistic expectations. IMO what's needed here is a council. That's right: a body of community reps who can distill the chaos here into concise bullet points fit for the Powerpoint presentations that drive Nokia as a company (:D). I recommend people like Milhouse and fpp and thoughtfix and even that ol' curmudgeon Karel for starters. And there should be strong debate even among this body, so that all viewpoints are presented and no assumptions are presented as data. Maybe we even need a new forum section for Tablet Advocacy...lol.

Anyway, just more blathering from me I know... but what do you guys think?

/soapbox

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

But: there *is* a system-wide Contacts database, the applications can tap into it. That was the thinking exactly originally, and that still is the thinking. It is extensible for new protocols and new services. However: Gizmo and Skype are external applications and services, they can choose to do so if they want it. But then again, they don't have to. So far, as you see, they didn't do so.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Okay, then further analysis is required: WHY didn't these developers tap into the system contacts provision? Is functionality missing? Does the API come up short? Is it an educational gap? Is it too hard? Are they too lazy?

As programmer myself I can readily assure tablet program folks that when presented with the choice of creating my own widget or tapping into available infrastructure, I'm going with door 2 every single time. No debate.

So-- why didn't they? That's Nokia's question to ask and solve.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

They must have a reason for not using the system-wide contacts - there is no logic to having multiple contact lists, one for each application. Perhaps the use of a system-wide database should be "enforced" a little more strongly by Nokia or Maemo (not sure how, better guide lines/documentation? Peer pressure?) otherwise the end user experience ultimately suffers - it's immediately apparent that I'm entering the same data multiple times into the same device.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Agreed with Milhouse. If nothing else, Nokia needs to provide clear, definite leadership on an issue like this. Maybe not heavy-handed, but strong nonetheless.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ragnar, I totally understand where you're coming from in this post (better than the previous ones, anyway :-).
Just three things :

- online vs offline : evidently that's the future... more so than the present. Today if I'm in a meeting and we're looking to program the next one, I don't have time to connect the tablet through BT then GPRS and launch the browser and pull down Google Cal or whatever. It has to be a local app with current data, as with the Psion or the Zaurus or good old 6021. Otherwise the tablet is a toy.
Likewise I could be proactive and mail myself the needed docs and spreadsheets for that meeting, so I can look them up in Google Mail's viewer. But it is still easier to have those reference files on my MMC and open them if needed with a local app, no ? Otherwise the tablet is a toy.

- long term vs short term : like any good technical team with a strong vision (almost since the Romans one might say :-), I suspect the maemo team has a tendency to think big, long-term and thus over engineer things. Than can be good, but only if short-term sales sustain the momentum until goals can be met. Not every company can or will push stuff at a loss for years until they wear off everyone else in the market and win by default, if you see what I mean. In 1995 the Psion guys set out to build the mother of all 32-bit embedded OSes, and they succeeded : EPOC32 was a jewel, and lives to this day in Symbian phones. Only Psion itself is not there anymore to ride that wave... So sometimes it is useful to do simpler, humble things, that satisfy user needs *now*. Even if they're somewhat at odds with the "great vision", they'll help getting there too...

- my PIM vs your PIM : if you ask only power users, you, me, your friends and posters here, evidently you'll get a bewildering and contradictory array of definitions for what "PIM" is. But it another post you say the goal is true mass market, something like phones rather than Palms ; and strangely, when you add my sister and my boss and your cousin and Bob's uncle to the mix, things actually get simpler, and now we know what PIM is : ability to open (preferably edit) *office documents ; a calendar that syncs with my other one ; and a way to use my existing contacts.

That's the same list I suggested to Qim yesterday : nothing fancy, nothing new, done for cheap ; certainly nothing appealing for a gung-ho team who set out to dazzle the world... But get those basics covered and you can turn back to the vision, and hopefully last long enough to get the great things done

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Damn, fpp, I am now nominating you for council spokesman. :p

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Sorry. It's Prez or nuthin. We're arrogant that way over here :-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

You have my vote.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Take this as speculation - I do not work for those companies in question - but:

If you look at Skype, for instance, they have a pretty similar UI and user experience in all of their Skype client applications in various devices. It's their choice and their freedom to think that the experience they provide by redesigning and reimplementing the contact handling again is better. The Skype experience is closely tied to their UI, as is with nearly any service.

In general, Company A wants to control the entire experience of using service A, promote the features of service A in exactly the manner they wish to promote them. With a unified UI there is always a compromise: they cannot have all the buttons in exactly the places where they want them to be, there needs to be some kind of balance between all the services. So there is a rather strong logic. Considering the overall user experience of the device it's perhaps an unfortunate logic, if you choose to see it that way.

However, If Nokia would say that "no, you must do it this way", then they do not do it at all. Then again, not all hope is lost: the whole UI of providing services and contact handling is still at a very early stage.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ragnar - if you want to see how effective your products can be when you pay attention to UI design, UI consistency and maximising the end user experience, look no further than Apple.

On the other hand, If Nokia are willing to stand by while partner companies (with whom one would assume Nokia have some kind of influence) offer major, top billing, applications (such as Skype) on the Nokia platform that subvert and undermine the _overall_ user experience then fine with me - just don't expect Nokia to be in this business when other tablet companies do UI right and take away your customers.

Please hurry and convince the developers to use consistent contact handling because the clock is ticking and after two years, two devices, and 3 major releases of Maemo (a fourth is not far away ) for you to say that contact handling services is still at a very early stage does not fill me with much hope for the future. :(

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I'm new here, I just got my N800 2 weeks ago but its already become indispensable. My original reason for buying it was to run Slimserver, which it does remarkably well. I really could care less about PIM features and editing word documents.

I have found the web surfing on the IT to be very addictive, I carry it with me all over the house, I can surf while eating breakfast, when commercials are playing on TV etc. I put it on the bedside table at night so I can surf in the middle of the night when I wake up without disturbing my wife. Its so much more convenient than the laptop that I wind up using it in many situations that I would not bother using the laptop.

One of the big draws to me was the fact that it runs linux, being able to go in and play with things, port programs etc was very important.

It seems to me that this opennes is part of the "problem" with the IT. On desktops people expect to buy programs that did not come with the computer in order to do most of their tasks. A fairly large number of people even modify their machines, adding new video cards etc. The mind set is that the hardware is a platform for external software and hardware.

Laptops are a bit more closed, very few people would ever consider upgrading the hardware on a laptop, but most people will still assume that they will be buying software for it. A certain number of people have a well defined function for their laptop and get it it with software to support it, but that is a fairly small percentage of users. One telling point is that almost nobody would ever even think of putting a new operating system on a laptop, while the concept is well known for desktops, even if most people balk at actually doing it.

For handheld computing devices its very different. The concept in most peoples mind is that a handheld is designed for a specific function and comes out of the box with everything you need to perform that function. The traditional functions being calculator, cell phone, PDA and MP3 player. This is the overwhelming mindset of most people when thinking about handheld electronic devices. If you want a new function, get a new device.

It takes a major mind shift to think of a hendheld as a platform like you do a desktop. To a large number of people its just inconceivable that they would have to get software and install it etc in order to get the functionality they want the device to perform. Its not their mindset.

The IT DOES come out of the box with the software for its intended purpose (browsing the internet) but that is so far removed from most peoples conception of a handheld device, that the fact its not optimized out of the box to perform traditional handheld functions can cause great distress and frustration because it does not fit their preconceptions of what a handheld is.

I think this is one of the big hurdles for the IT, to change peoples conception of what a handheld is, from a single use optimized for one purpose device into a platform that needs to have programs installed and configured, an incredibly flexible device, but one that you have to make into what you want it to be. A "handheld computing platform" rather than an appliance.

John S.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Navicore didn't either. By my count that would be every third party proprietary app chose door number 1 or eliminated the feature all together.

Could it be security related?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

John Swenson, that was a thoughtful post. I like the idea of "handheld computing platform".

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ragnar- Surely that doesn't prevent them from using the same database at least? If the schema doesn't suit exactly, that seems like a simple change for Nokia to make, especially of they want to see that 3rd party app on there, while still enforcing some kind of standard.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

whee, my first post actually from the n800 :)

ideally I´d quote all the relevant thread bits these responses are to, but here goes anyway...

skype maintains its contact base on the skype server(s), enabling the user to log in from any host and have access to that full contact set -- back to the online/offline bit. this seems pretty good as a reason to maintain a private set of contacts, though there might be an argument for syncing by choice with a local database.

for the other apps it presumably ties back to the point that no contacts/pim database that I know of has evolved to dominate this part of the unix/linux world. evolution is trying I believe, but looks pretty heavy for my use -- I need a terminal based system like pine so that mail collects on my home pc and I can ssh in to read it. others will have their own specs for managing email. I dont know which contacts database Ragnar referred to, but my first guess is that it is specific to hildon/maemo/nx00. if so, this only works if I am writing something from scratch to run on the n800, not if I am porting an existing app or intending for my project to have a wider audience.

as for a consistent user experience / interface / etc. as per e.g. osx, the flip side of this is ¨lock-in¨ and probably not terribly popular with most gnu/linux coders. even now there are a lot of window managers surviving in the ecosystem, apparently catering to many different personal preferences. probably this consistency is feasible on the n800 if you limit to only the nokia repositories, but compared to the resources feeding into that the apple input probably approximates ¨ïnfinite¨.

just my $0.02

rob.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

BUT-- by the same token, why can't the customers also try to change Nokia's mind? ;)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

> some Nokia execs appear reluctant to process negative feedback

Not the line of managers from my boss to the CEO, nor other managers in my team, deciding the future of maemo and the tablets. These people are quite flexible and open to improve or reinvent what is not going well or well enough. Then you might or might not like all their decisions, but the decision process overall makes sense and includes a lot of research and listening.

> There is a mounting frustration among the tablet users and occasional feelings of abandonment

Frustration goes together with expectations. Feeling of abandonment goes together with communication. I agree the levels of optimism and enthusiasm could be much better since after all the tablets are a good and interesting product, creating passion and excitement. We at Nokia need to improve our communication with this community and the management of expectations, yes. I would say this improvement already started, some fruits are visible, some others will be visible sooner and later, and still we need to improve more.

> when I see this community's priorities not matching up with the company's
You probably want to say that not all or not many of these priorities are matched. I wouldn't say the whole community is completely disatisfied either. There is progress, only two years ago almost nothing of all this existed publicly. Perhaps part of the expectations missmatch is a matter of understanding corporate software development processes and speed compared to OSS community hackers coding and releasing.

> if both "sides" have the proper information to realize that either Feature X is...
This is precisely why I'm getting so stubborn about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html , linked pages and the process to update them, inside Nokia and the community.

> New and potential users will base decisions on whether or not to buy a tablets based on what they skim here
While the optimism and recommendations done in spaces like ITT might have a noticeable impact in sales, this is in general another type of argument you can drop in your dialog with Nokia. Go instead for argumentations around what makes sense and what doesn't make sense according to the Nokia products and strategy. "Syncing with Nokia phones should be a no brainer" or "the use of a system-wide database should be enforced" are good examples of winning arguments. "User X asked about YYY but since it's not in the tablet won't buy it" is not.

> Since it can do nearly anything, people want it to. That's a dilemma for Nokia,
Not really. I hope nobody thinks that Nokia chosed to create a platform based on Linux, Debian and GNOME and never thought that the open source community would pick that base and try to do lots of things with it. Nokia wants to push and ride the *top drivers* of the tablets and the software inside and wants to not be an obstacle to all the rest of possible use cases, to be developed by third parties (community, companies, whatever). Nokia leading all possible developments is senseless, or at least not according to the strategy around maemo and the tablets.

- Your expected PIM & sync functionality will be one day covered in the tablets and probably be supported by Nokia (called PIM or not, that I don't know). When? No idea, and perhaps could come not through a single release but through integrating progressively this functionality feature by feature. At the end i.e. 'support for Word documents' and 'tasks integrated with calendar' have nothing to do from a development point of view.

- "can be delivered purely by the open source community, I don't know"
Nor do I. It would be good to know what are the specific obstacles only Nokia can remove, if any.

- SIP "at some point": if it wouldn't be vacation time I bet my answer could have been more precise already yesterday. Gimme some time.

- PIM not a black/white thing: absolutely, this is why I'm asking (since February) to let behind the PIM yes-no and move forward to the specific set of features. Thanks to fpp, Milhouse and others for summarizing, we are getting into specifics. Submitting specific enhancement requests and/or creating linkable wiki pages would help, even if many of this requests have been made repeatedly in ITT talks.

- "done for cheap": there is nothing cheap in corporate software development for consumer electronics devices. The same OSS implementation requires a lot of extra expense when you want to put a Nokia supported label on it. This is why sometimes the community can move faster to get what most (power?) users would be happy with (but perhaps not the mainstream public).

> It seems to me that this opennes is part of the "problem" with the IT
JohnSwenson, you are making a very good point here. It has to do with communication and expectations. http://downloads.maemo.org , the one-click installs and the Tableteer repository are already big steps forward compared to a wiki with long pages linking to .deb packages. But this is still far away from what mainstream tablet owners would expect and/or be happy with. Only the current software offer (with all its gaps and betas) would make much happier most of the tablet users if they knew (and didn't have that pre-configured image of what a handheld should be, avoiding them to fully enjoy the freshness the tablet brings). Well, that's at least my personal opinion.

Well, this thread is being a pleasure to read and write. I will keep reading but I don't know how much I'm going to be able to write since tomorrow I start a chain of trips, guadec and holidays. I guess the basic message is clear: fight the roadmap.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

> why can't the customers also try to change Nokia's mind?
They can, and they do, complaining (you would be surprised how effective is to call Nokia support and provide 'negative feedback' there) and buying or not Nokia products (what at the end counts in any commercial product). ITT is part of this picture but there is more out there. ;) As you say the customer is always right, and s/he might not even bother about ITT's discussions.

In addition to that, let me say that the most quoted sentence I have seen since I joined this project is:

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford

The man had a point. I don't know how he applied this to car mass production. I read it as "you need to understand your customer better than they understand themselves" (thanks). The whole topic is far more complex but now It's time for me to do some actual work (and make you happier).

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Qgil, you're doing it again. ;) I truly believe that you don't see those people. What I'm asking from you is the same benefit of the doubt. I *have* encountered them in various areas of Nokia, including some involved with the N800's development and launch. Within Nokia's walls I have heard so many purely unscientific, anecdotal comments about what people want or don't want for so long I could scream if I hear another! Surveys are better!

I didn't think the qualifier was necessary; I figured it was obvious I was generalizing there. I never said the whole community was dissatisfied, nor implied it, so again I see defense mounted where none is necessary :D. I really, REALLY wish we could avoid belaboring the obvious. There are some safe assumptions in this dialog and I have no problem with anyone making them of my points-- it's the unsafe assumptions and black-white responses I find annoying.

To the point, I agree, and insinuated as much in previous remarks. I am amazed at the tablet platform's progress. I remain a hardcore devotee. BUT: I would be remiss, personally and professionally, if I did not provide constructive feedback-- even if it's painful for *some* to hear.

Once again: fully agreed. I think as a group here we're in consensus. Provide a single channel, and let the community diffuse the info. We've done it before, we'll continue to do so. RogerS, Reggie and Thoughtfix are all awesome at that. It's covered.

Hang on Qgil. This is a major obstacle here. While what you say has objective merit, we're not living in ivory towers here. There is what we'd like to expect happen, and then there's reality. The reality is that people DO skim this forum and make snap judgments. I've seen far too many choose to avoid the tablets due to that unfortunate tendency.

Now, if you say those are unwanted prima donna customers I might be inclined to agree ;). The only reason I brought it up was that there is a perceived arrogance on Nokia's part toward customers. Read the posts here. Better yead, read the Nokia Way Jam feedback when you get a chance-- employees perceive it, too. Are those claiming the notion of an arrogant, disconnected Nokia are wrong? Well... that's pretty subjective. What I'd like you to do instead of dismissing what's been said along those lines is consider the ramifications if its true.

It's another perception thing. It *appears* to be a dilemma to many here, who may have a different notion of what a "top driver" is. Survey them. Best approach IMO.

Anyway, still glad to see your participation. I'm well aware what it takes.

EDIT: I agree with educating the customer. But consider this: forget the skimmers I mentioned. Your base here is very, very savvy. The heck with horses-- they're still wondering where their flying car is. The folks here are the ones who sneer at Henry Ford and teach HIM a thing or two. So we have that covered, as well. ;)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

This is such a great quote in this context. I remember how I felt when I got my 770: I really had no idea how this device could be useful except for surfing the web in bed. Plus: I had the feeling there's so much missing that I would have expected from a - well, from a PDA.

Now, looking back, I still wonder why I never wanted all the things the 770 can do before I bought it. How could I have lived without it? And now I see the IT as what it is, I don't want it to be a PDA anymore. Thank you very much.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Traitor. :p