Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

And as mentionned a hundred times in this thread, state is well below Maemo, and progress well above.

Which means it IS going somewhere, even if you repeat in 50 different ways that it is less functional than maemo right now (which is true but clearly not the point). And this is basically the only thing you've ever done in this thread.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I am soooo not getting what you're after now.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Maybe it's time for a new notification: This message is ignored because abill_uk is on your clueless list.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Is simple really, to find out the latest on this Meego adaption for the N900 and who is doing what about it's future because if this community does take a dive then maybe there might be a slight dimm chance some dev's can push this adaption further before that happens.

The reason for my comments are to find out where we are at currently and future IF there is one for meego regarding the N900.

I personally think it is so slow going it will fizz out soon and what with the lack of support from this community even for the cssu it does not look good.

Bad "news" always has a sidekick to it and if enough people are really interested in meego then reading this thread might rustle up something, who knows.

Got nothing to lose here we can only move forward, right now for 8 months or so of work it is abismal in my estimation so something has gone wrong somewhere.

Any further comments anyone?????.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Are you going to carry this charade on or will you just STFU and allow people to have opinions????.

Your post is a direct attack and should be deleted along with this post.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Are you being realistic here or are you just dreaming?.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

every time you reply to abill....

... errr well...

lets just say he is typing with 1 hand

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

funny how so many threads in this forum turn into off topic nonsense and trolling after the first few pages. In most cases there's nothing worth reading or commenting to after page 5.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

This post is after page 5. Were you intentionally being ironic?

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Then flex your project leader muscles and try to be a little creative: What milestones should have been reached in the time that has been spent developing? Don't forget to make your list of milestones as complete as possible and assign every milestone a time estimate.

Make clear comments about the size of the different teams, how they are funded and how much time has been spent by every team (which typically is possible to translate to man years, man months or some equally quantitative measure).

Since you have opinions about the development speed, I'm sure you can explain why you think it's "slow going". Especially so if you back it up with the milestones and time estimates.

After that, it's possible to talk about your estimates and the people in the project can add actual data about time taken for different milestones and why they, potentially, differ from your estimates.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Please tell me where I've said that. I've never said that. Please stop lying about what I've said. Putting words in my mouth really is insulting.

I've never had a problem with people pursuing Meego. In fact, I've wished those who were doing so luck, since I think it's a good thing. My main objection (again, something you'd know had you read the thread) was them coming here and discouraging development on Maemo, saying developers should instead target to MeeGo because it's "more open" and "more future proof".

If you're going to be insulting, you should at least get your facts straight.

Btw: When the previous discussion on "more open" was held was frankly the last time I looked at Meego. At that time, there were no "open" components for GSM, wifi, and a number of other components. If that's changed in the past couple months, great. But that's taking your word for it that these exist, as I'm not seeing it reflected on the MeeGo CE pages.

The "Summer Release" didn't have open components for any of the parts you're talking about. That's the last release I see for MeeGo CE / N900 on the site. Yes, I'm sure there's a bleeding edge daily build I can go try, and that may have all that in it now, but frankly I need a working phone more than I need to check the latest MeeGo updates.

As for saying "it's all on the MeeGo site", sorry, but that site isn't quite what I'd call organized or easy to navigate. From what I'm finding, the last thing listed is the Summer Release, and all the notes for it still look like it's pre-release. So saying it's the world's bad for not following the IRC channel and magically somehow knowing which thread or wiki pages to follow to keep up seems a bit unrealistic.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

If I understood correctly, the closed components are still there, but there are open replacement parts readily or almost readily available if needed (but they are not used because of lesser quality/functionality). Not verified myself though.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

@ woody14619

I would tend to agree with you wrt meego (or any other group) people discouraging further maemo development, however there ae a number of important things worth consideration.

whilst neother OS can be seen as truly "open", Meego is a lot closer to the mark than Maemo, and with that in mind, lends itself to further development and sustainability than Maemo.

It is worth mentioning that Nokia appers to be giving more support to Meego development on the N900 than it is giving ongoing support to Maemo on the same device (Dev team funding for project and ongoing development/refinement of closed binary blobs to get the OS running smoothly on the N900)

ref: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1...kages/armv7hl/

for those non-oss components being used for CE builds.

the fact that there is so much more than just drivers that are closed in maemo (and that the closed components are so embedded in to the OS that trying to replace them breaks so much), is why some devs would argue that it's better to put efforts into a system with a more open core, given that long term sustainability of the OS is moe likely to be viable via upstream support.

Meego works on the N900. is it such a bad thing that (for now) using Nokia's closed components will provide the best/most efficient experience wrt hardware interaction and usability? Especially if the alternatives either don't yet exist or are inferior?

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Surely that's up to them?

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

First, let me say, thank you for the wonderful post on what's going on with MeeGo. I'm happy to hear an update about where things are at right now (and a little about how it got there). I'd really wish there was a simple Wiki page somewhere for those of us that are tacitly following it, so we could see where it is without having to read a whole forum, and join mail lists, and/or have MeeGo community members bring up unknown changes in status in arguments here. :rolleyes:

One thing that's noticeably lacking is any information about anything since the "summer release". Is there another release planned? It sounds like things are moving to 1.3? From the look of the wiki, you'd guess the project is dead, since it's not seen an update since before the last release. (In fact, finding a link to the summer release page isn't that easy...)

I agree with much of what you said, but have to say, not so much on the topic of the UI. The UI may just be candy to some, but it's quite important on a mobile device. It doesn't matter what a device core is capable of if you can't operate it because the UI is poor, missing, or lacking. Anyone who's used a first-gen device vs something more matured will tell you, UI is vital. The other components are important as well, but the UI is not just "fluff". If the UI isn't there, that core isn't going to get used.

That's not entirely true. Frankly, there's been little kernel level development in the past year or so that would impact most users of the N900, or developers for that matter. How does a new GPS stack help someone writing a QT based web widget for the N900? It doesn't. The existing GPS stack has a few bugs, but for the most part it works pretty well. Some new functionality (h.e.n., packet injection, battery module status, etc) is nice, but we wouldn't be "utterly screwed" without it.

That's not to say that kernel activity is unimportant. It's great that people are doing that, since it does open things up and brings new features and options. But it's not something that's going to make or break the N900. It is vitally important to MeeGo, since adapting an open driver to a new system will be easier. But for the N900 in general, it's just not that vital.

No... They deserve admiration and thanks. Respect is not something you can purchase or trade for, it's something earned through treating others in a sound and respectable way.

Programmers in particular confuse thanks and respect often. Generally you don't get respect for doing a particular bit of work. You get respect sometimes because to pull off X or Y you have to be socially pleasant enough to cooperate with others, coordinate an effort, and inspire others to do things. You can also get it by explaining how you did technical things so others understand it, without being rude or condescending. Through that some people do gain respect, which others (or even they) may attribute to doing X or Y, but it's more about the journey of getting there than about the act of work itself.

And that's where we disagree. This would be like saying "there's no need to target Windows XP any more, Vista is the future!" Sure, some companies do that. But reality is there are still lots of users running XP, and will be for a long while yet. Especially when "Vista" isn't ready for the average consumer.

As for having to redistribute full images, that's hogwash. There are plenty of closed parts replaced by CSSU at the package level, without images. I do get that there will be limits. But again, the current system can do a lot already, and there's a solid API for tacking in lots of new functionality.

I've seen completely open community efforts end just as poorly. The OpenMoko project springs to mind, along with it's derivatives and accomplices, none of which has seen standard adoption in anything yet. They put out to bits of hardware, and to this day none of the project images can do three simple tasks that my N900 does almost daily:

1. Connect to a tower, and stay connected.
2. Ring when a call comes in, and show a UI in time to answer it.
3. Route audio to and from a bluetooth headset for said call.

Most distros can do 1 & 2, but not 3. The few that can do 3, can't do 1 or 2 reliably. Even the android ports (there are 3 of them) fail to do all 3.

And least we think MeeGo is magical for having corporate sponsors, I ask: Where's Ofono today? You remember Ofono, right? The project Nokia and Intel started back in 08, an open source phone stack that got adopted into just about nothing? Well, nothing may be harsh... the FreeRunner and the N900 both have a distro or two that attempt to use it.

Just because it's got more open components doesn't mean people will flock to it. It has to actually run on something, in a stable way, in order to pick up steam. Having a busted (or no) UI means it will die just as quickly as the projects above. That's one advantage Maemo has: There's already a user base out there. Lots of people are actively using Maemo on their Nokia N**0 devices. That alone will keep things ticking here for a good long time, unless MeeGo actually gets to the point of being usable as a stable, every day distro. Until that happens, why discourage development here? On an active, stable platform with a good number of users...

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

In theory, I agree. The problem is, until MeeGo is at least a functional, stable base (say, as stable as Maemo PR 1.1), people will not move to it. And without a user base, will it really be maintained in the long run?

One of the big arguments I've heard for moving to MeeGo is that the N900 is no longer being produced, and the by moving to MeeGo we can ride the coat tails of future MeeGo devices. There's a problem with that though: None of the new MeeGo devices are going to be ARM. Even assuming developers start making apps in pure QT, or Java, or some other "platform independent" code system, we know those won't always work across all platforms. How many QT apps for the N900 work on the N800? Why would MeeGo be different? And most developers aren't going to target/test their apps for an older platform that didn't ship with MeeGo on it, hoping someone is using the back-port of the OS for that device.

I see that, but I have to ask: how long will that last? If there are no new N900s being made, how long will there be development and "community support" for MeeGo CE? Once the N9 is on shelves, I'm betting most of the effort will probably focus to updating and maintaining that existing platform, vs a back-port that was intended only for developers initially. They're targeting the N900 right now because there's not another common hardware kit they can use as a target. The tail edge of the window for having a working MeeGo system on the N900 is very quickly approaching. If it's not in place before new hardware is out, good odds it won't get there (so experience tells me).

I totally understand that logic, and why some would choose to follow that. I wish them well, but I don't intend to follow that path based on where things are now. The problem I see is that MeeGo CE hasn't even hit the stability level of the initial release of Freemantle 1.0, yet alone 1.3 or 1.3+CSSU. This is a classic "one in the hand vs two in the bush" situation. Some would chase the two in the bush, and maybe they'll even catch them. But I'm not convinced that MeeGo is going to make it to the point that it's going to even match Maemo in functionality, yet alone rival it. I will happily be proven wrong if it happens. But my past experience tells me the bird in hand is the safer bet. (Better, I'll take your bird, and you can go after the two in the bush. If you don't catch them we'll have one bird still, if you do, we'll have three! :D )

Again, I'm not against MeeGo. I just don't see it as being mature enough to compete with Maemo yet. My objection isn't that MeeGo exists, or that people would be drawn to it. My objection is people coming here to hype it, saying continuing development on Maemo is a waste of time when you could be working on MeeGo.

The way I see it, if I write something for Maemo, I have a forum full of users that will happily try it, and maybe use it for many years to come. Is the same true of MeeGo? Is anyone (outside of the hand full of developers working on it) using MeeGo as their day-to-day OS in the real world? I'm thinking that user base is small, if it exists at all. So why discourage people from developing in Maemo?

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

you're certainly correct in that Meego on N900 as it stands is probably more of a dev OS than a user one.

i've stated previously, comments similar to one of your earlier posts, that the UI is a major key to attracting a larger user base.
It's functional and works, albeit a little disjointed in uniformity (then again, so are many applications written for maemo).

as for general usage, i for one can say categorically, I've missed more calls due to the sh*tty screen lock bug in Maemo than I have with Meego, so arguing for stability against maemo 1.0 or 1.1 could possibly bring up a LOT of issues that we, as users have forgotten about (blocked from our minds?) following on from the subsequent releases of pr1.2 and pr 1.3.

Hell I even tried some of the SHR builds and found aspects of that OS/UI better than pr1.1!

don't get me wrong here though. i love maemo, however I'm happy to commit time and my n900 to the Meego project if only to identify and file bugs for the dev team.
i can say so far that every bug I've filed has been clearly investigated and actioned, and that at least, breeds confidence that the team is atually working to address common use case issues whilst still working on the core OS.

the great thing about the N900 is even if MeegoCE ends up gooing nowhere, i can always flash it back to maemo :D

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Search thread for "wasted"...

Because it's not changed. For example, Wi-Fi on Meego has always worked without closed blobs. The issue is the MAC address and the regulatory stuff, which require access to the CAL partition -- another part that despite being several open reimplementations Meego for the N900 still uses the Nokia blob (someone tell me why?).

So, warm welcome to my club. Keep Maemo, and forget about community updates, CSSU releases and new Meego versions. It's all too bleeding edge. I need a working phone.

But don't say it's moot which one is more open. One will stagnate. The other might not.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

There you go you got all the answers in your post so why when people come on and tell you that meego is just not making the grade you have a go at them then come on here with a post of your very own and point out exactly what i said in my post !!!.

If you cannot listen to critisism then you should not be involved in the project full stop.

I will repeat your words ok.........

"you're certainly correct in that Meego on N900 as it stands is probably more of a dev OS than a user one"

Get meego to a usable and functionable os and NOT a dev's os.

"i've stated previously, comments similar to one of your earlier posts, that the UI is a major key to attracting a larger user base."

The ui is crap and you very well know it !!!.

The development has just NOT made meego usable from a non dev's point of view and untill it is you will NEVER attract people outside of development (general users).

Meego IS slow and non usable with far too many components missing and the very reasons are within your own post.

When you lot move this to a use"able" os that can take over Maemo will be the day it will be popular.

It is now 1st SEPTEMBER 2011 please note that ok.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

With all due respect joorin you need to look at the whole mess from start to now and then look at what has actually been achieved, THEN you will see just what progress has actually been made over that period.

If you lot were paid developers for Meego i would sack the lot of you simple as that and i do not mince my words here !.

Development is just no way reaching ANY targets if you look at the time scale from day one to today the 1st September 2011.

Meego is STILL at development stage with a useless ui that is not even half way there yet as so many components are missing STILL.

Please be realistic here and look at what has actually happened ok.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I did. I found one QUALIFIED post, where I said:

You did note you were a programmer, right? Did you not notice the conditional?

You're saying that MeeGo CE is going to become a primary OS for common people, are you not? Your claim is that at some point, because it's "more open", that all remaining N900 users will have little recourse but to migrate to it, because it's a wonderful thing, and "more future proof". For the community at large to do that, means it will get to a simple update/reflash level.

But lets look at the other side, shall we? What if MeeGo (CE or in general) never runs as a stable, usable system on the N900? What if there's never a viable image available that standard users can reflash their device with? What if MeeGo never makes it into a viable product, and none of the drivers being built for the N900 are used, or integrated up stream? What would you call the effort and time put into it? And how important would MeeGo's being "more open" be then?

Wait... Which is it? It's always worked without the blobs... but couldn't get it's own MAC address... so it still uses the blobs? Is there any wonder there's confusion?

Btw: The MeeGo bugtracker would disagree with your assertion that it was all happy, and in the open driver all along. In fact, even in the Summer Release version(s) wifi had some pretty major issues. Not being able to stay connected, not connecting to some apns at all, not always seeing the hardware at startup... I'd hardly call that "working".

Both will eventually stagnate. Even if MeeGo has some miracle release and becomes the next Android, MeeGo CE will eventually not be able to keep up, and will stagnate. That's the nature of things. Again, we're talking about an OS that's primarily targeted at non-ARM processors, using binary blobs, back ported to a device that was never promised to work on it. Call me a skeptic, but it didn't start out with good chances, and it's not progressed enough to change that from what I've seen.

Personally, I don't think MeeGo (or MeeGo CE) is going to get much farther than it already has. It's running out of time and energy, and by the end of the year Nokia will likely shift to the N9 for MeeGo development. At that point MeeGo CE will spiral faster than a kite in a tornado, still not be as functional as Maemo, and Maemo will still be here. In 3 years we'll be talking about some other new project for some other new half-baked platform, and someone will reference MeeGo as the 2010 version of the ofono project. (Interesting silence on that point btw...)

If MeeGo makes it, great. Tell me when it can be used as a day-to-day system like my Maemo system has been able to do for almost 3 years. But don't tell me or others that developing for Maemo is a waste of time because it too closed and/or stagnating. Especially when the horse your backing just recently left the gate and is only now starting to trot a little bit while mine is half way across the field and still running strong.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Your wasting your time and effort to talk to these so called developers because they only want to see it from there point if view.

It seems none of them will listen as they do not seem to see past there own front door.

The development "team" for the N900 adaption is useless and they should give it up and get back to Maemo in my opinion IF they are not prepared to listen to the many of us telling them MEEGO is just not usable as an os like Maemo is.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

MeeGo CE is much like the prior HE (hacker editions) that preceded the community edition. It's for devs and the adventurous for the most part.

Doubtful it will ever be refined enough to call a daily use OS.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Just to make it clear what I'm talking about, MeeGo platform does not rely on any closed source components, the hardware adaptation specific to N900 does. I'm not trying to convince you either way, just presenting fact - and you can refer to this in your own arguments.

You seem like a reasonable person so here's the list of what is closed in the summer release to put facts straight, but redistributable binaries you can verify here, also includes some intel stuff.

This is hardware adaptation, so I'm not going to highlight any part of UI or Platform of it's openness:

* bcm-bt-firmware, BT chip redistributable firmware (doesn't change)
* bme-rx-51, battery management
* support libraries for CAL access, PPU
* wl1251 firmware + calibration tools
* SGX 3d chip userland drivers, but open Xorg driver
* Extra algorithms and codecs for better audio quality in calls

In CE specifically they also add:

* Extra camera functionality, such as autofocus and other stuff
* (A)GPS stack, exposed through liblocation

What is -not- closed:
* Kernel or kernel modules
* Ofono telephony stack + phonecalls on a PulseAudio stack (but quality suffers compares to what is achievable with extra algorithms)
* Basic camera functionality
* Policy framework + settings
* etc.

You can probably help documenting this on wiki - the team seems to have been too busy actually making things work than to document :P

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I agree with the adventurous part, even though that label is sometimes applied to everyone who touches a flasher at some point.

I'd like to know - what's your criteria (or anyone's) for daily use OS? (And don't say feature parity, because Fremantle goes up and beyond daily usage). I find it valuable to acquire requirements from stakeholders.

We tried to define basic daily usage features for the community edition work and I'd like to know how aligned that is with your wishes.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

After reading this thread, I think I've gotten enough information to get a very high level overview of how the MeeGo development has changed over time.

But, how I view it has nothing to do with your statement about the development being "slow going". At all. I can't agree with you about this with less than that you do what I asked you to: back up your opinion with reasons other than "I think so." and we can talk about it.

If you can't back your managerial decision with more than an opinion, that it's "slow going", you're a really really really bad manager.

But, since you have this view of the project, it's even more important that you back it up with what I asked for. If only for a chance to learn something or teach the MeeGo team something.

Come on, show the people that have been working on this that you actually have some valuable input. Your strong opinions suggests that you've at least done some analysis.

You keep repeating things to this affect. Again and again. How about backing them up with why you think this?

Be a little more generous with your knowledge.

So far, every MeeGo developer that has voiced an opinion in this thread (unless I've misunderstood something) has ended up in "As it stands, MeeGo is not a drop-in replacement on the N900. But we're working on it.".

Might it be the case that their milestones and yours just aren't the same or just not planned or estimated at the same cost as the ones you're so adamantly trying to tell us that they failed to meet? Without any other argument than "Because I say so.", I might add.

I am very realistic. And I'm also very interested in a discussion where opinions are backed with actual arguments.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Just a quick note on this one - the best thing you can do is either join meego-handset@ mailing list to receive notifications of new meeting logs/minutes or view it on http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/mee...gust/date.html (all months on http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-handset/ )

These meetings are where they report to their managers and they discuss directions. Of course there's hall way talks on IRC or IRL at times, but they don't have secret telephone conferences and such. So that's pretty much the best information source.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

The more i read on here the more ignorance i see and to be honest from what you all speak is total crap and by god i mean CRAP from the development point of view.

I have never in my life read excuses like you have on here and talk about AVOID THE ISSUE !!!.

What woody said really does sums it up and i will quote his words in highlight .....

"Personally, I don't think MeeGo (or MeeGo CE) is going to get much farther than it already has. It's running out of time and energy, and by the end of the year Nokia will likely shift to the N9 for MeeGo development. At that point MeeGo CE will spiral faster than a kite in a tornado, still not be as functional as Maemo, and Maemo will still be here. In 3 years we'll be talking about some other new project for some other new half-baked platform, and someone will reference MeeGo as the 2010 version of the ofono project. (Interesting silence on that point btw...)

If MeeGo makes it, great. Tell me when it can be used as a day-to-day system like my Maemo system has been able to do for almost 3 years. But don't tell me or others that developing for Maemo is a waste of time because it too closed and/or stagnating. Especially when the horse your backing just recently left the gate and is only now starting to trot a little bit while mine is half way across the field and still running strong. "

This just about sums it all up and i will add one more point, when i was debating this with stskeeps he informed me he was given access to ALL the closed components within Maemo, now what the hell is going on after 8 month you guys can only muster up a stupid ui that half works and please refer to other posts on here not just mine ok, where is the work being done? where is the progress past the release prior to the CE summer edition release? because it is abismally just about a working basic developers platform with absolutely no chance of making it past that.

Please read peoples post such as woody's and gerbick etc and try to get what is being said because all i am getting is nothing but excuses and that i am a bad bad manager or would be.

Meego for the N900 is just not ever going to make it and that is that and when you lot see the problems then you will either admit and move the development to a stage of a flashable image to take over Maemo OR give it up and go elsewhere where your work will be more appreciated.

Really this is making me angry to read such nonsense from grown up men that should know better.

Remember also the big words from stskeeps and his bussom pal wmarone were spouting just like qgil was about Maemo and the end result is ?.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

If you developers want some inspiration then please go to this thread.....

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35699

And please note we are talking about Maemo here not Meego ok.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Well, point taken.

No. They can stay on Fremantle (as I do), noone is going to remove it from their devices.

What is wrong with the current install procedure btw? That It requires an SD?

As I said, Meego "might" not stagnate. Fremantle _is_ already stagnating.

Even then, the fact that the Meego N900 Hw adaptation has less closed components means that more of it can be reused for the next big thing if by then there's any single N900 user alive.

Why does this cause "confusion" to you? These things happen. I'd ask, but I bet the answer is probably "nobody cared".

Congratulations for your interesting anecdote.

If you'd knew the hoops I had to go through to get Wi-Fi working _at all_ on Diablo and Fremantle...

Hoops that are no longer needed in MeegoCE because they used connman from the start.

Evidently. The last piece of N900 hardware will eventually die... That should be obvious.

FUD

Yes, but, "less".

FUD, as seen on the above posts.

Sigh. I have something to tell to you.

This was the largest forum of the N8x0 community. It peaked around 5 years ago.

How many pure N8x0 users do you see these days? 10s? 100? How many of those do not run any of the hacker editions people depise because they're buggy, but at least give to them a few more recent versions of certain software?

How many packages are uploaded daily to the repositories? 2 a month?

Allow me to use the above fact to predict how the Fremantle situation will look in less than 2 or 3 years from now: this place will be desertic.

It has already started! Most of the brightest people here have already run away. In part because they were tired of abill_uk, in part because they moved on the next big thing, in part because they care about the number of users their developments can target and -- believe it or not -- the numbers are rapidly decreasing in the Fremantle world. Only trolls like me remain.

So, you can compare Meego CE in craptasticness with the Maemo HEs all the way you want. In less than 3 years, _all of the people who are interested in updates_ will be running Meego CE fully or _at least_ dualbooting it with Maemo, much the same way quite a lot of people who run HE also dual boot with the original FW.


I'll tell you something else.
I used to maintain all of my software for both Diablo and Fremantle. Why? Because doing it was just one #ifdef away. Note how despite it being just one #ifdef away a lot of people didn't care about Diablo at all. Consider now that between Fremantle and Harmattan or Meego the differences are much larger. I am going to use these bits of information to predict how many people will go on updating their Fremantle software in a few years: zarro.

Your only way to get new updates for applications will be to scavenge them from other operating systems like what Preenv does.

And that's only talking about _application development_.
So, from an applications perspective, Fremantle will stagnate. From a platform perspective, Fremantle virtually has _already_ stagnated.


On to Meego.

MeegoCE uses the stock kernel. It has a very reduced number of closed components. It will be able to use Linux 3.0. You will be able to install whatever the lastest GNU/Linux software is on top of it, because the stock kernel, glibc will keep working on it for the foreseeable future, and any new interfaces will also work.

Meego can run Harmattan applications. It still requires some effort, but the Harmattan components have been proven running under MeegoCE. Harmattan is at the moment the latest big thing. It might not take off either. The N9 might only ship in a single store in the Sahara Desert at the end.

But for at least a year a lot of the hardcore developers that have been bribed away from Fremantle with a N950 (that is a fact you cannot change) will develop to Harmattan.

Thus, the Meego outlook _is_ _already_ better in the regard. Despite its complete lack of functionality.

So what's left?
Maemo is the "stably, working, unchaging evil we known". That alone makes for a great point in continuing to using it.

But there might be no future in that.


And by the way, what do you have against ofono?

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

The only one in this thread that actively avoids the issue is you. javispedro (together with other MeeGo developers) and woody at least make efforts to try to explain.

Come on, share your thoughts together with arguments that can be discussed. Why are you avoiding direct questions about how you came to the very specific conclusion that the MeeGo development is that late and "so slow"?

I see very little nonsense (between the flurries of misunderstandings). You are the one sticking to "No, I will not tell you how I came to this conclusion. I just want to repeat myself over and over again, because otherwise I might have to admit that I actually don't know very much.". That last bit is me guessing what's going on in your head. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Since the last time I looked at it the install documentation is actually a lot better. I like that it's bootable on SD actually, since I can try it and see how it's going. But the install procedure for putting to the internal memory (where everyone will eventually want it to be if it's their primary) is still dodgy.

Sorry, but reality is there are no plans on the table for ARM based MeeGo devices after the N9. Do you know something I don't? If so, please do share. From what I've seen, the only people promising another MeeGo device is LG, and they aren't ARM. And yes, ARM is in the build, but i386 is in the build for Maemo too, so that doesn't prove a lot. That's not FUD, that's a fact.

As for the "see posts above", what do you mean? This is a back port by definition. It's an OS, designed for the next system, that has hacks put in to make it run on this hardware so developers could "get a jump" on the next big thing.

It was never promised to work on the N900 as an end user system. That hasn't changed. Nokia said as much when PR1.2 came out:
The MeeGo community has also said as much, and in fact until it became "Community Edition" it was labeled pretty strictly for developers only. Reality is, that hasn't changed much. Even with the name change, most people aren't installing MeeGo and using it as a day to day OS. So again, not FUD; fact.

The initial base for the N8x0 was much smaller, and different, than the N900. The production runs were smaller in number for the N7x0 and N8x0, and both were marketed as a tablet device. The N9x0 was mistakenly marketed in some markets (Europe mainly) as a phone, and in most other places as a cross-over device. But there were a lot more made. I'd venture a bet that there are still more N900s in use now, years after launch, than all the N[78]*0 devices produced (combined).

And yes, the few that are left are running community extensions. I'd bet most people running an N900 in 2 or 3 years will be running Maemo with CSSU. Maybe a few will run Meego... But that would be to fit a specific need. I don't think there would be anyone running it for general use, as would be the case for Maemo.

Well, we've both made our predictions now. We'll have to come back (or more likely, still be here), and see who was closer to the correct answer in 3 years. Again, if I'm wrong, and Meego takes off and becomes a happy, fully functional system... Hey, that's great. I just don't think it will, based on where it was, where it is, and what I've seen before.

You keep saying that... Yet every time my system does a refresh, I'm getting updates to existing apps and libraries. And I'm still seeing lots of activity here. I just don't see it the way you see it I suppose.

Is it just me? I can't help but think of you throwing Maemo on the cart, and it going "I'm not dead yet!", and you replying "You'll be stone dead in a moment!" :D

Not much... It's just that it's one example of these exact same two companies trying an almost identical thing 5 years ago. I see the same arch happening here, and can't help but predict that it's likely to follow the same path.

Ofono was another Nokia/Intel attempt to make a go at making a "common base" for phone/PDA/handset architecture. It was a nice idea, but it was so open and non-specific as a base that few projects formed around it or adopted it. Those that did all interpreted or implemented the spec slightly differently, and none of it was every really cross compatible.

I see the same thing happening here, with people claiming MeeGo CE and Harmattan aren't really Meego, or they are but it takes some tweaking to make things work. It's like watching the same project happen all over again. Maybe this time things will be different, since there is an example to point to (ala Android) that made it. But I suspect because of the players and the foundation, it's going to end the same way.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I don't think that's so. There are a few points that have caused snags here because of nit-picky semantics, or disagreements on terms (or mis-association of ideology). But over all, I think it helps for other to hear the logic behind what and how I (and many others) think. We may disagree with some of the details, but at least there's an exchange of viewpoints happening, and clarification (or even comprehension) on where the sticking points are.

Discussion is often useful. Even if you disagree in the end, you come away with a better understanding of why someone thinks what they do, or how they go about making conclusions. If you're lucky, you may present something that can actually change how someone sees a topic. More often, you walk away with the tools you need to help change misconceptions, or at least recognize them. The only way it's not productive is if you simple refuse to see another point of view at all, and constantly repeat your own view, without stating (or in some cases even analyzing for yourself) how you came to that view. In which case, it's not really a discussion, but a yelling match. I'm not seeing as much of the latter here by most of the participants. Present company excluded...

PS: Please, when quoting someone, trim their message to the point you want to make, and use the proper mechanism for that. (See above as an example.) Re-posting large chunks of conversation without trimming is bad enough. But not using the proper quotation system, and highlighting in bright colors, doesn't serve any function but to annoy.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

See... That's what I'm trying to avoid. I really don't need another imap folder with 20+ messages a week in it to sort through. I barely like having that for the Maemo lists, and I'm actively using that. Add that most of the emails you pointed to are announcements for, or irc transcripts of, hours long irc meetings... I really don't have that type of time for things I'm actively using, yet alone for something I'm only checking on once every couple months at best.

I know many people that would disagree with that statement. There were several people that hated the N900 out of the box because it didn't meet their previous daily usage pattern from a prior Nokia based device. (Provisioned Exchange Server compatibility being a huge example.)

I think feature parity with PR1.0 is actually a reasonable target, since the goal is to get people to move to the platform. If MeeGo can't provide that, then I have to ask what the point is.

Yes, there are lots of things that I think are important out of the box:

• USB capabilities (drive emulation & sync)
• Bluetooth functionality (headset / PIM / sync / etc)
• IM and SMS capability (even Pigin + SMS chat would do)
• A usable email client (even just POP/IMAP would be fine)
• GSM call capability (preferably with address book & dialer)
• Browsing capability (I hear Fenec almost works now?)
• Backup/Restore capability (preferably better than Fremantle)
• Usable GPS system (and pref a mapping app to use it with)
• Wifi/3G/2G auto-switch
• UI-based package installer / maintainer
• Media app that can take/show/play/organize photos/audio/video.
• Base functionality of all hardware (tv-out, keyboard, fm, accel, lights, etc.)
• Stability! If I need to reboot it twice a day, it's gone.

I'm sure there are plenty more, but those are the key items I use daily (or at least weekly). I'm sure there are a few others I use less often, like MMS, h.e.n., and the like. But some of those are more icing than cake.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

It's FUD. There are few if any hardware devices planned for i386 either, so that would mean Meego doesn't target x86! The facts are that Meego targets equally both x86 and ARM. Or tries to at least. The N900 even was a reference platform...

That as I mentioned on a previous post and tekki has also mentioned, MeegoCE _does_ have a list of working use cases as goals.

Nokia will never make a instruction booklet. That is enough for them to say it's not user-ready.

No. The FUD is saying "the N900 is a device it was never intented to work with".


Ah, I _knew_ you where going to use this. I've had several discussions already on my opinions on how this will degrade, and usually the argument for newcomers is usually a variation of the above -- what I'm going to call N900-centrism.

Let's put some hard data:

Builds sent to the autobuilder on June 2011: 735
Builds sent to the autobuilder on July 2011: 524
Builds sent to the autobuilder on August 2011: 552
We are already way past the prime peak, January 2010, where the number of builds sent was 2669.

Now let's look at preN900 data:
The last month without any Fremantle builds was February 2009.
There were 712 builds that month.
On January 2009, 452.

Sadly, my data source doesn't extend up to the N8x0 peak time. But if anyone's interested it would make for a nice plot.

The N900 was released around November 2009 (but many people had it before that date). The N810 was released around November 2007 iirc, while the N800 was released around January that year.

Make your own conclusions, but my impressions are that the N900 is at least currently not holding much better than the N810 did.

Why this happens despite the obvious increase in sales (because many people seemed to think the phone is their killer feature. Not mine for sure, but that's another story) and download numbers can be probably explained because preN900 time you had hardcore fans that were more interested in their pocket computer -- the N900 target market is much more less tech savvy. Therefore, the uploaders/users ratio was much higher in N8x0 times.

Yes, that's the case. But do not be confused: this is still because I think that your arguments about the extra openness being moot are invalid.

Fremantle is not yet dead. I will myself build some stuff in the near future.

But this extra bit of openness that has been obtained thanks to the MeegoCE project is virtually the only difference the N900 has (and previous devices had not) to combat its inevitable demise.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I'm not entirely sure if you understand oFono correctly (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) - it's a component to provide a telephony stack, ie, implement modem drivers, provide a D-Bus interface. It effectively replaces N900's SSCD/libisi, etc. It's not a platform/linux distribution.

It's kind of like BlueZ and ConnMan or NetworkManager

[1] http://ofono.org/

I wouldn't exactly call it a failure when you can do high-quality telephone calls on a N900 with it, but that's my own view.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

YOU are the one that is just not seeing it along with the rest who insist that meego is going somewhere, please read other threads being posted on this forum now and you might just get the picture of how the majority feel about meego.

I do not have to even try to explain the why's and the reasons, just go read other threads and posts !!!!!!!.

MEEGO is dead meego will never make it and it is time for everyone to move on to better things.

How many times do you have to go on before you finally see the point and do the right thing..... move on from meego.

This community had better start to pick up on the future of mobiles or it will surely die too if it tries to carry on with meego and maemo.

The answer to this thread's question is simply YES it should stop ALL activity with meego as it is dead.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

And if we look at the hard data without "maemo is dead" glasses we may conclude that peak values in the first months after n900 launch are because of bugfixing builds, can we? Because bringing application into extras is not so easy task, that is why one needs several iterations devel->testing->bugfixing and again from the begining. We may also conclude that after an year and a half developers are much more experienced with the platform, have development tools (Qt,qml) in their hands which were not available in the begining, etc. which shortens development and reduces number of iterations needed to make an application stable.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I do understand what it is right now, but understand, that's not what it was announced that it was going to be when it was originally set out. It was supposed to be the end-all be-all universal library for people chattering with the GSM subsystem. One was supposed to be able to write a single app, say a dialer app, that would talk to ofono and setup/handle phone calls. That app could then be simple recompiled on a new device with ofono support, and it would just work.

In reality, it became more like SNMP. There's a universal way to talk to the device, but it's so implementation specific that even simple apps often can't jump from one device to the next, because the calls to the underlying structure are so radically different that it's useless. Even simple things, like dialing and setting up a call are device dependent. Complex tasks (like sending SMS, or MMS, or starting data paths) are even worse, and often not well documented. So even if the device implements with ofono, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to figure out how it's working, or what targets need to be hit in what order to do simple tasks.

Again, that' great, but really not much else has adopted it. It's in MeeGo, which is all find and good. But even if you take a basic dialer app from MeeGo, QT based, with a super simple interface, just a pad, call and hangup button, and try to run that on any other device, it won't work. That's not what the goal was, not even close.

If it were, MeeGo could have used the dialer app from OpenMoko from day one, since it was all open source and ofono based as well (well, the 2009 version was at least).