Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

for your (and javispedro's) linguistic education then, this is called a pissing contest...

however, one point where javispedro's version is more accurate is that a pissing contest is open; you have to open your zipper, hang it out and piss in public.
bragging about one's organ size on the other hand.... yeah, mine is always bigger
has more to do with ego then with organ.

the CA allocation definitely weren't a public pissing contest (my app is better then yours)

maybe next year we can make it a pissing contest of kind, by letting the contributors piss indeed
and then the members (with a certain karma & all) can vote... for the best pissers.

would have voided the whole thread.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Thank you for that.
But the CA wasn't a pissing competionen. But this thread mus be seen as one where some think they deserve a device more than others?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

i appreciate your pain, but you are not improving your situation by insulting ppl

NITDroid definitely is a great contribution, even though i spent two weeks sometimes several hours in the evening trying to setup NiTDroid on my (test) N900 so i could try and discover what app sandisk has put on their 64GB mSDXC
those m0##0ns put an exFAT file system on it and not even the se7en PC @ work (12 GB RAM, SSD system drive, 2 Xeon CPUs...) can access it :mad:

nor can a SGS2 :eek:
i'm thinking about trying ICS, but NITDroid on the N900 does not seem to support mSD :(

long story short, yes, having a N950 may help you improve ICS, but it definitely won't help with mSD now, will it?

:confused:

PS: this morning i decided to Google for sandisk apk... guess i won't need NITDroid for that after all :p

EDIT: okay, should delete the whole post because going back to the previous page i now see what post you directly replied to...
next time, use Quote & Reply maybe?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

again, having made it one, rather then a "secret" deliberation where, in the end, some could discretely push forward their bigger ego would have avoided the whole mess, no?

yes, in that (limited) aspect, this thread definitely is a pissing contest / competition.
thanks for completing that!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Oh Estel, there were many more than four and you know it. The discussion was much broader than what you try to present in your "summary", but apparently you missed the point. But no worries, I'll put it in a nutshell here:
The problem, as viewed by many (i.e. more than four - note this - it is important) was "being a judge in you own cause judge" type. For many not necessarily the outcome, but the process raised concerns.

Fortunately some other people were able to draw valuable conclusions and I hope we can prevent such an outcry in the future...

Moreover - I'll still try to kindle the donation idea - could, by any chance, council discuss that on their next meeting as a way to end the dispute and finish the situation in a "uniting the community" way?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

i think Estel's disgraceful behavior has less to do with his nationality or race then with the fact that he is simply not mature enough.
this is not even my own words but those of one of his coreligionist from the Council.
but it was already visible before the election and still... he is the candidate with most votes...

you got what you voted for :rolleyes:

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

long way to go in only 68 posts, huh?
but i'm glad you come to see my point, eventually ;)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I'm a click away from closing this thread.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

you have to do what you have to do...

EDIT... too late :(

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

@don.edri
Of course, if a group of people want to fund device/money prizes for their champions, it's welcome with open hands by Council, and we would like to provide every help that they request. As long as they would like us "corrupt" to participate ;)
---

As for Your summary - yes, it's kinda fair. Although, it's also fair to state, that (I'm repeating this 30 time, probably):

1. On April, community decided how CA will look, who will judge it, and how it will handle Councilors submitting for device, being judges at the same time. 100% of discussion participants were OK with it, and, ironically, I was the one, who proposed to make councilor ineligible, automatically. To my pleasant surprise, community decided to base awards on merit, not function.

2. On may, the same issue was mentioned on TMO, and only one person didn't appreciated idea of Councilors submitting to awards - geneven, in his one-liner post. furthermore, it was suggested and accepted (all in public), that Councilors submitting for devices, will take part in deciding about winners, but wouldn't vote for self (i.e. Estel won't vote for Estel, etc).

3. Later ON, draft for CA rules was announced on ML and TMO, without anyone protesting.

4. CA started, with announcement of rules via ML, TMO, News, Council Blog, IRC. It run for 3 weeks, including submissions of Councilors, all made during legal time. No one protested, and 80% of people (complaining now) submitted themselves = were aware of rules, accepted them, and haven't said single word about it or other submitters. List of such people include (but is not limited to) ZogG, INABT, e-yes...

5. CA ends. After results, few people start outcry, stating that *their* morality and "feeling" what is right or not is more important, than Community decisions made in April and May... And, that *their* morality should be forced upon everyone. Some of them demanded changing winners don_falcone, ZogG, some of them - like the latter, mentioned - though, that not-reading any Community channel for months is enough excuse for not protesting earlier. Some of them doesn't want to change result, but to promo themselves gerbrick.

there was also sad incident, when one Councilor - SD69 - who also submitted for CA and won device - suggested, that I might have did something "nasty" with my CA submissions, changed my mind etc. Of course, it is absolute nonsense and FUD - I've declared, that I'll submit from very beginning, and never changed my mind. FUD was cleared early enough, but some people, like don_falcone, like to stick with it, just due to personal problems with my writing style, and so goes on.

OTOH, it turned out that FUD released by SD69 was action on purpose, as it turned out - which saddens me very much - but it's different story, thing for fixing in Council internally, and I'm not going to write more about it.
---

don.edri, I don't know if You will agree with this, or not, but IMO, whole thing circulates about few (really, minority) people, that missed appropriate time for protest about rules (either, because they couldn't care less, or because their "champions" were not amongst winners), failed, to acknowledge that Community decided before current Councilors were elected, and, generally, failed to read and understand answers, at all.

I've tried - numerous times - to explain, kindly and civil, such points, and to discuss it - point by point - with ones that tend to not get a clue - like ZogG. Unfortunately, he wasn't interested, and when faced with meritocratic discussions about points (again, going 1 point at time, and explaining what is not clear), he just decided to run on TMO and remain in demagogic/sophism stance. Which, for one, I take as prime example of bad will.
---

Fortunately, most people seems to have gone through it, and focused on more productive things. Anyway, despite all grief, it was quite nice test, to see who is reasonable no matter of personal affiliations (I'm looking at don_falcone), and i'm sure that few people have their Candidates for next Council already, no matter what will happen in next 5 months. Well, double-win, after all :)

/Estel

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I think you should let it die by itself, it will eventually and I think it's soon as most has said their piece.

It's started to go off topic here and there and I see that as sign for people letting go and moving on.

When speaking of off topic who deleted the tag 'loveisintheair' that was simply funny and atleast that made me laugh.

Regards Dousan...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I'm shielding no one. I'm speaking the truth, and to some degree my opinion. My hope is that I'm being clear on when I'm speaking one or the other.

I never said I didn't understand your point. I said that others were calling for transparency while you called for opacity. I never said that I agreed or disagreed with either stance. In fact, I'm saying that figuring out when to use one vs the other is a fine balancing act. But then I think you know that already. :)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

you are late for the party ¦-))))

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

@Estel: you can add my name to your list, for completeness sake.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

What list? Love lists!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

@Estel you have stated the timeline for CA somewhat times now. I agree that it's enough time to object if you follow irc or ml wich most TMO members don't.

Where i disagree is the clarity on TMO. Yes it has been descussed in a thread but in that thread was also other info that didn't make it to the final rules (e.g only two of you (council) would act as judges).

You can't expect people to follow irc and ml. You can't expect people to take part in making the rules. What you can expect is people to read the competition rules before submitting and therefore the rules should state everything and be clear and understandable.
Neither the wiki nor the announcement thread stated in the rules anything about council being judges and nominees at the same time. If peole are gonna object to something that they can't read from the rules how are they gonna object. It was bound to go this way even if some of the objecters have participated it's not fair to accuse them of being sour grapes.
So as there was nothing to object to according the official rules they acted on common sense that no judge would also be a participant, hence the situation we have now.
You as council should acknowledge this and take your part of the responsibility on this matter.
You made a mistake by not including this in the official rules and therefore excluding information from most of the TMO members as you can only expect people to read the official rules and nothing more and they should cover it all.

Regards Dousan...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I again feel I am saying the obvious : N900/N9 users run NITDroid to complement Fremantle/Harmattan OS, not to replace it. NITDroid is limited, not allowing phone calls, consumes a lot of battery, etc. So a typical NITDroid user spends a low % of the total N900/N9 time, the main usage is on Fremantle/Harmattan.

Again, NITDroid helps increase the device (N900/N9) user base, where the main use of the devices is on Fremantle/Harmattan.

The simple fact that the important community members (councils, etc) will use Harmattan helps increase the Harmattan culture in the Maemo.org community.

So, your sentence "This competition was not about advancing Harmattan, in any way, shape or form" doesn't make sense IMHO. Advancing Harmattan isn't simply developing for Harmattan, it means a lot of different things.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

It makes me feel better when you bold my name, thanks — here is "4 points" system he tried to use on me, check the language and the logic. for example the first point is (i quote Estel):
ZogG, unrelated. community decided. you're no one to judge Community decisions, and request changing them.
but to see names he use on me and as he says that he doesn't give a F-word read whole log — http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23mae...06-27T00:55:47

That's the council way to talk to user! =)

Still think that Estel shouldn't be council.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Seriously thinking of deleting this thread. Much like Estel, it's contributed nothing to this site but to divide people.

Community... good luck. We've been repeatedly talked to in a fashion that I'd not allow in real life.

Council... good luck. That's all I will say.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

just to clear more info on situation:
1)SD69 said:

Quote:

I think we should clarify that the community awards will be decided by two people and not the council as a whole. I, for one, volunteered to step aside because I will be requesting an award

.

And Estel thanked him
2)kojacker quoted very nice the main thing you said with "community agreed on maillist":
So apperantly people were against it, and i didn't go deeper to find more.

As well i checked the thread on maillist it wreally as discussed by only few people, while 3 of them were councils. So i still don't understand why we are called "four people against" and where is this community that agreed on maillist?

Edit:
And one more quote from 30-05-2012, when no results were there and no results were avilable, even submition was okay:



So apparently it was too late than as well, it was always too late, as he did the decision to go till the end =)

So it is too late for us, because we had almost month for results, and it was too late before, as the rules were there, any other excuses?


__________________

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Look at my previous post.

About your comments :
- running Android on emulator doesn't bring the same behaviour (speed, touch response, limited software compatibility, etc);
- a cheap Android phone doesn't have the hardware of N900 or N9;
- it is very useful to have multiboot on N900/N9. My N900 has 5 multiboot options, including 2 Android's (2.2 & 2.3), used to test some Python (SL4A) softwares.

I don't understand how the council doesn't see that NITDroid make N900/N9 more popular as :
- the NITDroid forum has approx. 2.5 thousand registered users;
- NITDroid was and is well cited all over Internet, promoting Nokia N9 in the last months.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Why should I? You're mostly inactive, most of the time, just jumping here and there, when You see some situation, where you can put Your comment, without involving any work, anyway. Your posts neither hurt me, or make me feel great ;)

I think, that it's the point, where difference lies. I actually expect people to read mailing list (it's main Communication channel for all productive things in Community, unlike TMO, which isn't either official or, most of the time, very productive ;) ), and I expect people to take part in making rules.

Remember, Council is not government. You don't choose us to have someone to blame for Community fails. All after all, it's, Community, who made those rules, not Council. I someone doesn't want to participate in creating rules, then he shouldn't come and cry later.

I'm unpaid volunteer, and I'm participating in creating rules, because I want to have positive impact and contribute the Community. I could step down from being Councilor any day, it doesn't matter much, in fact. There is no all-powerful governing body, that will do some things in name of Community. Either Community pick up *** and work, or it won't happen.

not to mention, that majority of (out)cry'ers have submitted themselves to CA, so they knew rules and - most of the time - other participants *very* well.

@ZogG
your posts is so full of lies and manipulations - apparently, done on purpose - that I'm not even going to bash them all. Everyone with access to mailing list archives (it's public) and logs from Council meetings can judge himself. You're the one, who advocated "I wasn't participating in creating rules, because I doesn't need to, I just come and demand!", that it speaks enough about You - You like to force Your view about things on others, but when there is time to do real work and participate, You're absent. Just like gerbrick, or any other "notorious talker" without any useful contributions for Community in their history.

/Estel

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Why You think so? Actually, e-yes work was valued quite high during discussions about winners - he just was outrun by people that, in our opinion (and discretion), contributed more.

All this talks about "whose e-penis is longer (copyright to javispedro)" ends up in people thinking, that someone who hasn't won device, is considered crap-doer by Council. Of course, it isn't true, and it's one of reasons why we will *never* publish discussions about every single submission.

Arguing "why this contribution is better than that" always lead to disaster and hurt feelings (no irony here). Its just a pity, that some submitters were not grown-up enough, to take being non-awarded winner (as there are no losers, every Community Contributor is winner, IMO) with dignity and happy face, congratulating winners.

It was saddening, to see how many people disregard other's contributions, just because people in question would allocate prizes differently. Not to mention those, who "demanded" re-allocating of prizes, just because due to own ego.

Thankfully, we're finished with this, already.

/Estel

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

all my answer is 90% quote, so how is it possible to be lie?

and if we got personal, and you always talk about others contributions, that they do not deserve anything, are you comparing to yours? As i do see you did things, but i don't see anything outstanding and that biig that you can use the word "merit" and "my contribution" in every single post few times =)

the quote from above post was from your post about the rules from 30-05-2012 and i can't lie by quoting you. Or you would feel better with links? Than i can do that too:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=40 - your post (if you want to edit it we would see the edit date btw)

here is maillist http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...read.html#5259 the Community Awards/Coding competition thread

And here is your submission on 17th on June few weeks later only, the last day of CA:

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ne/005473.html

Now tell me where can i lie just providing the links and time line here?

Edit:

http://i.imgur.com/HiPHQ.jpg

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

My proposition to help give peace and justice to the Maemo/MeeGo community.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

@Estel
The summary you have posted in a response to my post is way more accurate - I appreciate that. Still, I disagree with some points but this is just difference of opinion and we can agree to disagree, I guess.
As for the minority of protesters - it's obvious that minority is posting in the thread but as to account for the feelings of readers - who also may or may not have doubts - I can't say.
And yes, I agree that protests are ill timed and should have been before CA.
However, I think many people paid only little attention to CA prior to it's results (i.e. that this thing exists and some people will get sweet N9s/N950s) without really following all the discussions about it.
Why is that?
Well, I guess that this is partially because they laid their trust in the Council that they'll do it right or didn't care much, or were not aware that such discussion was taking place. As it turns out it was a mistake, because raising concerns then would be far more beneficial. But it's an assessment error to expect people to read and tear through all the discussions and posts, so, another thought for the future, if there's next CA: when the Council agrees on final rules, they should be presented in TMO as a sticky or something and add tags like "boobs" or "PR 4.3 update" or "N9 hack to control Voyager II probe" to lure everybody in. Then every to-be-unsatisfied could make comments there, in an easily visible and available thread (basically, rub the thread in everybody's faces so no one can claim it wasn't there).
Nevertheless, as I've said before, reviewing results of CA is not at option at all.
I like rcolistete suggestions as much as I like the idea of donation. Anyhow, if the donation is agreed upon and established I will definitely participate. Until the, don.edri out.

PS And I think we all should focus on the greater good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpbOliTHJY

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

OK, I just did as you suggested and read lots more pages from where I last left off. And I'm afraid to say my opinion remains the same.

My new thread title:
not
The mammoth talking-bollox-about-my-bollox-being-bigger-than-your-bollox-but-I-don't-have-the-bollox-to-give-in-gracefully thread

I'm off

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I think I can make that fit.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Go ahead :D

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I just nostalgia'd hard. Thats some vintage **** right there. A crumpled Willie miller? Hah, talk about getting the wooden spoon!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I wanted to answer it here in the hope we can keep any bad feeling from spilling over onto the coding competition thread :o

Honestly, I appreciate your proposal and your attempt to fix what you perceive to be an injustice with the community awards. But the coding competition is a seperate thing. We can't bring peace and justice by running roughshod over the rules of something else :)

For example, in your proposalOur competition runs til September and the integrity is very important to us. We're not going to take some devices from our prize pool to make a special category for people disappointed they didn't receive a community award.

It would be a bigger nonsense to have a coding competition that included fixed winners.

We have 25 devices to be won (plus Felipe's donated N9 makes 26). If your proposal was that anyone disappointed to miss out on a community award should enter the coding competition then I would think that's great! However, your proposal seems to be that we ring fence some devices from our competition and assign them sepcifically for people not to compete with everyone else on a fair basis in the rules of the competition. I hope you can understand that's a non-starter :o

I also hope you can work out any issues with the community awards directly with the council. Neither of the organisers of the coding competition (myself or zehjotkah) have ever been elected to council nor are we affiliated with Nokia. We don't have any involvement with the community awards, and we'd like the coding competition to remain seperate also.

Again, we're open to everyone. If anyone would like one of our prizes then please come enter and earn one - we'd love to see you get involved! But that's the only way you'll get one.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

There seems to be a common agreement that we, the council, made some errors in procedures.
It is difficult, if not impossible, to change that. Many, most, including myself, have apologized and admitted to this.
Now, we are working, first priority, to try to ensure that this does not happen again.
We made an error, most of us agree, and want to make the best of a terrible situation.
Even though most have agreed this is sufficient (not, for sure, perfect) there still seems to be a few people that wants to have 'their heroes' awarded a device, no matter what it takes.
That would not be a fair deal also, at least for (the majority) of people assigned an award, which we all agree!
Do redo the whole thing, would put those people in line, not to mention that there might even be a decision from Nokia saying no-one deserves anything ? I wouldnt blame them.
Again, I repeat, an error was made, most of councelars have admitted to that.
Last, I want to thanks those that brought this up, and came with good suggestions on how to move on.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Please do. Its going in circles with same arguments, from both parties.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

@nieldk I agree with your last two post and yes this thread is going in circles and has comed to an end.

The thing is most of the councilors has seen the issue and adessed it and even some apologized for it though one - @Estel - has done the opposite and kept 'hiding' behind his facts and arguments wich is see as not holding water the further we got into this thread.
He wont take any part in the councils responsibility in this matter nor his own responsibility.
He kept making personal attacks and being condescending in his attitude.
No one should give back their devices and i hope the council did see all the nominees as objectively as possible as they could.
The thing is the council haven't been hiding the fact they also wanted to participate as nominees/judges but is has no where been clear not even in the rules it has not been published broard enough nor clear enough.
My problem in all this started with 'conflict of interest' and ended up in @Estel being a twad about this and not taking his part of the responsibility in this and that's the path he has chosen.
Sad to see as it may be he wont change his behavior nor stop being blind and no one can force him to do so with valid arguments nor force.
I think at this point this thread has brought the best ir could taken this situation.

So just to clear up things my issue was not about councilors got an device it was how it was done and later on @Estel and his behavior and seeing himself without any responsibility in this.

Regards Dousan...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Thanks, and please feel asured that this will not be passed, but discussed (also with individual councelar(s) (I include myself here) harrasing and making personal attacks. I agree that that kind of behaviour is not something that should be acceptable from our position ATM in the community.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I have been reading this thread quietly and it is clear to me what the council have done is not only embarresing for them but also everyone on this community and once again the need to hide the embarresment by closing the thread is being threatened yet again.

It is obvious the actions from certain members of this council are not only demeaning but bringing this community down especially estel, it is all sad but i do feel unless this is dealt with other than talk and something gets done about it there will never be any respect for this council.

If the only way is to close threads to try stop this then there is something very wrong now with the way this community is being run so i think the only thing that could put this right is for the members of council who have gotten this award to hand them back and/or should resign from the council and fresh voting take place.

The effects are now very demeaning and bringing down the meaning of what this community should stand for and certainly not to allow this kind of thing to occur.

For me Maemo.org has lost the plot and i am sure many feel the same but too scared to speak out.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

While all you say, in my opinion, is quite true. I must add.
1. The issues argued here will be dealt with on the council.
2. Closing this thread, its not a 'threat'. But the arguments being thrown is circular. I think the important bits have been mentioned (and commented) over and over again, and to my opinion, it doesnt serve a purpose anymore. Except, for posting the outcome of the council discussion on personal attacks, how to avoid this in the future, etc. etc.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

LoL. just when I thought we were done here. You showed up here with same old same old.

That's just fantastic.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

So what you are saying is that everyone who has complained bitterly in some cases you still feel the council just need to talk about this and this matter should only be dealt with by the council? ok you might have a point there because there are no procedures in place to contol the council of this community should it ever fall foul and do something wrong.

The reason the arguments are going circle is simple, nothing is being done about about this matter and it is so serious it could even bring down this community because the whole world of this community and beyond is watching and reading all of this, you memers of council need to realise this and do your talking promptly before you lose complete respect and let everyone know just what your going to do about all of this.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Dave999, i'm sure you can handle this one!
i'm counting on you! :p

EDIT: just stumbledupon this:
An old Cherokee told his grandson: "My son, there's a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is Evil. It's anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is Good. It's joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth." The boy thought about it and asked: "Grandfather, which wolf wins?". The old man quietly replied: "The one you feed."