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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
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-   -   Let's talk Nokia stock. Really. (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85965)

thedead1440 2012-10-23 12:40
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch-hitter (Post 1284423)
Samsung have capitalized on every idiotic decision Elop has made.
This deserves to be repeated a 1000 times...

People like Lumiaman look at Nokia's products in developed countries and say bla bla bla...

Look at India which till one year ago was around 60% Nokia dominated...

Nokia had dealerships not only in every city but in most major malls and street markets...This drives your products' volumes even if your product is sh*t as remember accessibility to products counts alot...

What happened? Elop took over, changed budgets, thought that the American markets is #1 and instructed Asian operations to not bother much with these dealerships...

What next? Samsung went to every dealership and offered more from the product's RSP as well as paid higher for the advertising display and signage in an outlet! The dealers asked Nokia to offer something similar but due to Elop's bs orders they didn't put any counter-offer and by the time they realized the number of dealerships changing hands, it was too late to get them back on board! Remember, when you want to retain a dealer you just need to offer an incremental increase citing old relations etc but when you want to convert a dealer you need to offer much higher!

Soon, a market that had 0 Samsung dealerships was becoming one with majorly dominated by Samsung dealerships...Now what do these retailers promote? Obviously Samsung instead of Nokia! Nothing to do with OS etc just plain old retail management!

Now with Nokia realizing their mistakes, they are going back to the same dealers with a higher offer but too bad Samsung has signed them on at least 2 year contracts!


Before someone like Lumiaman says the above is false well I've done my homework :D

uTMY 2012-10-23 13:29
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Specc, only you are trying to conflate Android and HW. Nokia has always been capable of competing on equal footing with any of the other Hardware players by including an Android offering any time it wanted to.

It is only Elop that has driven the mandated WP8 strategy which is always going to be more costly than an equivalent Android combination due to OS costs.

Android + HW vendors can improve their customer facing offerings with the money saved from the raw OS cost over any proprietary offering such as WP8 + Nokia HW.

It is for this reason that Microsoft et al have been engaged in patent disputes worldwide (starting with SCO many years ago) to try to raise the cost of ownership of Linux based systems such as Android simply because they know they can't compete on a level playing field.

The sad thing is, Nokia hardware with Android would have been a truly superb offering and could have been delivered by largely the same team presenting Maemo/Meego etc. Similar skills etc.

Well the dice have been rolled, time will tell, either way Microsoft have little to lose, they can't compete currently and Elop has successfully removed several mainstream competitors to Windows in one fell swoop.

If Nokia come out of this at all it will be a miracle.

Good luck

rgds

volt 2012-10-23 15:12
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
uTMY's thoughts seems a fair assessment, although I do believe Microsoft can compete on a level playing field. They do not compete, but if they fixed their team, I don't believe proprietary licensing would stop them. Licenses are a part of hardware production, and Microsoft's even capable of making their own hardware.

They just can't get the OS salesworthy in how many tries now.

specc 2012-10-23 19:50
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uTMY (Post 1284451)
Specc, only you are trying to conflate Android and HW. Nokia has always been capable of competing on equal footing with any of the other Hardware players by including an Android offering any time it wanted to.

It is only Elop that has driven the mandated WP8 strategy which is always going to be more costly than an equivalent Android combination due to OS costs.

Android + HW vendors can improve their customer facing offerings with the money saved from the raw OS cost over any proprietary offering such as WP8 + Nokia HW.

It is for this reason that Microsoft et al have been engaged in patent disputes worldwide (starting with SCO many years ago) to try to raise the cost of ownership of Linux based systems such as Android simply because they know they can't compete on a level playing field.

The sad thing is, Nokia hardware with Android would have been a truly superb offering and could have been delivered by largely the same team presenting Maemo/Meego etc. Similar skills etc.

Well the dice have been rolled, time will tell, either way Microsoft have little to lose, they can't compete currently and Elop has successfully removed several mainstream competitors to Windows in one fell swoop.

If Nokia come out of this at all it will be a miracle.

Good luck

rgds
It's not Elop. The board wants Nokia to be more than just an HW OEM. WP was the only path they saw that had a chance of success, Elop the instrument to make it happen.

You can say that people don't want WP, well the same people didn't want Symbian or Maemo either. They wanted Android and/or iPhone. The problem with Maemo/Symbian was that Nokia just couldn't make it work.

Nokia will live, relax. Lumia 920 is OK. But if you want a real Linux experience, now you can: http://www.phonearena.com/news/Offic...exus-7_id35788 Today, the Nexus 7, tomorrow the Galaxy Nexus (or whatever the next gen will be called). Forget about Jolla, it's just a distraction, a continuation of a semi open, semi closed endeavour that really has no place. Ubuntu on Nexus 7 is the real thing, real Linux on real HW.

Nokia has not delivered a top spec phone since the N95. Every single Nokia phone since the N95 have been at least one year behind the competition spec wise, (meaning CPU, RAM, screen NOT camera and phone functionality). The Lumia 920 is getting there, lets say it's only 6 months behind, but WP8 will weigh up for that.

switch-hitter 2012-10-23 21:02
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1284615)
It's not Elop. The board wants Nokia to be more than just an HW OEM. WP was the only path they saw that had a chance of success, Elop the instrument to make it happen.
On the contrary, NOKIA were more than a hardware OEM now they are not. Microsoft now controls whatever it is that passes as an 'ecosystem'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1284615)
You can say that people don't want WP, well the same people didn't want Symbian or Maemo either.
You don't know that. NOKIA's sales were growing right up until Elop publicly deprecated Symbian/MeeGo and the N9 received very favourable reviews. Real world facts seem rather at odds with your baseless assertion.

Even now with zero marketing, limited availability and very outdated hardware NOKIA's Symbian devices continue to outsell their WPx devices which have had enormous marketing budgets lavished on them by NOKIA, Microsoft and AT&T.

Lumiaman 2012-10-23 21:23
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch-hitter (Post 1284644)
On the contrary, NOKIA were more than a hardware OEM now they are not. Microsoft now controls whatever it is that passes as an 'ecosystem'.

You don't know that. NOKIA's sales were growing right up until Elop publicly deprecated Symbian/MeeGo and the N9 received very favourable reviews. Real world facts seem rather at odds with your baseless assertion.

Even now with zero marketing, limited availability and very outdated hardware NOKIA's Symbian devices continue to outsell their WPx devices which have had enormous marketing budgets lavished on them by NOKIA, Microsoft and AT&T.
You keep repeating this stuff about how great Symbian and N9 are/were. It seems to me like you have either never used these devices and/or you have no ability to compare with competitors. I mean, have you used N8 when it came out? I mean, that was one of the worst touchscreen phones of all time. I couldnt type a sentence without getting angry and cursing the day I bought this abomination. N9 is the same when placed against competitors (iphone, etc). Where have you been to make such ridiculous statements? NOKIA OSs were going down, burning fast, and they had to change the course. So stop being apologizer without with your sales numbers that belie the inevitable death of NOKIA supported OSs. No wonder you are the only one left buying NOKIA OS devices. No wonder their sales are so bad. They should have transitioned 4 years ago to Android or something better.

READ MY LIPS: NOKIA IS NOT A SOFTWARE COMPANY.

Lumiaman 2012-10-23 21:28
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uTMY (Post 1284451)
Specc, only you are trying to conflate Android and HW. Nokia has always been capable of competing on equal footing with any of the other Hardware players by including an Android offering any time it wanted to.

It is only Elop that has driven the mandated WP8 strategy which is always going to be more costly than an equivalent Android combination due to OS costs.

Android + HW vendors can improve their customer facing offerings with the money saved from the raw OS cost over any proprietary offering such as WP8 + Nokia HW.

It is for this reason that Microsoft et al have been engaged in patent disputes worldwide (starting with SCO many years ago) to try to raise the cost of ownership of Linux based systems such as Android simply because they know they can't compete on a level playing field.

The sad thing is, Nokia hardware with Android would have been a truly superb offering and could have been delivered by largely the same team presenting Maemo/Meego etc. Similar skills etc.

Well the dice have been rolled, time will tell, either way Microsoft have little to lose, they can't compete currently and Elop has successfully removed several mainstream competitors to Windows in one fell swoop.

If Nokia come out of this at all it will be a miracle.

Good luck

rgds

NOKIA should have gone Android route, but they should have done it before Elop. By the time Elop came, it was too late. With regards to Maemo team, I honestly think they cant deliver. It took them since 2008 to come up with N9, and they came up with a beta device. Sorry, but that team had not leadership, no wonder Jussa got axed as a CEO and they put some Mark guy there now.

What is this obsession with Elop? Elop was brought in to do the obvious. Get rid of obsolete OSs (Symbian, Maemo, Meego) and move on. They considered Android, they went with WP. Why they did that, we will never know the details. And certainly you and I have the least of them. Stop bashing Elop when problems at NOKIA were clearly bad prior to him. He is cleaning the house, and he may clean the whole company with his decisions, but he tried. NOKIA was otherwise destined for certain death.

shinogami 2012-10-23 22:04
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1284656)
I mean, have you used N8 when it came out? I mean, that was one of the worst touchscreen phones of all time. I couldnt type a sentence without getting angry and cursing the day I bought this abomination. N9 is the same when placed against competitors (iphone, etc).
Other than the bigger ecosystem, how was the iPhone 4S better than the N9? As far as I know, iOS still doesn't have such basic things as for example profiles even in its latest version..

switch-hitter 2012-10-23 22:38
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumiaman (Post 1284656)
You keep repeating this stuff about how great Symbian and N9 are/were. It seems to me like you have either never used these devices and/or you have no ability to compare with competitors. I mean, have you used N8 when it came out? I mean, that was one of the worst touchscreen phones of all time. I couldnt type a sentence without getting angry and cursing the day I bought this abomination. N9 is the same when placed against competitors (iphone, etc). Where have you been to make such ridiculous statements? NOKIA OSs were going down, burning fast, and they had to change the course. So stop being apologizer without with your sales numbers that belie the inevitable death of NOKIA supported OSs. No wonder you are the only one left buying NOKIA OS devices. No wonder their sales are so bad. They should have transitioned 4 years ago to Android or something better.

READ MY LIPS: NOKIA IS NOT A SOFTWARE COMPANY.
By your own admission you'd never used an Android device until recently. When you did try a Galaxy, a top of the range Android device, you said it sucked and you couldn't believe anyone would buy one, yet it sells in huge numbers.

Previously you said WP7 was what most people wanted and Elop was right to adopt it for NOKIA, now WP7 has indisputably failed for NOKIA you're saying NOKIA should have transitioned to Android 4 years ago? Do you even know what Android was like 4 years ago? Do you think it was in better shape than Maemo then?

You say the N8 and N9 were abominations and yet you bought both, multiple times in the case of the N9. And you're questioning my judgement?

specc 2012-10-23 23:07
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock. Really.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch-hitter (Post 1284677)
And you're questioning my judgement?
I don't think anyone is questioning your judgement. Whenever we see your judgement, a silent echo resonates in the crowd: faaaaiiiill


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