Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Others are reporting the same problem as Frank. I did too but no longer... I'll just have to let you all guess what could have changed. :D

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

That's just down right vicious. What else have you got that we don't? Does your 770 browser not crash either? I'll have to see if there are any more wounds you can pour some salt in. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Don't think of it as salt... because the fix for me will eventually be the fix for all.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Are there some updates coming our way - soon?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

There will always be updates, sooner or later.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

so at least we can expect more use of the ssu before fremantle and N900...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I won't speak to release schedules, but do the math... ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

meh, i just felt like being a bit snarky ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

These speculative conversations go nowhere. :) Make some bold forecasts.

What I do know is that in the almost 2 years I've had my device it has become a pretty decent appliance for me. The sad part is a lot of that work has been done outside of Nokia. I'm hoping that the acquisition of qt and the mapping company change that. Bringing out another os and having the community at large fix, refine and develop is not in Nokia best interest as a large multi-national corporation.

I applaud Nokia on creating this platform but the execution and support is lacking. Hopefully they are now seeing the market potential and will put in the necessary resources on the software side. From what qgil said in earlier post it seems they are. Texrat you won't be alone here in the US anymore. :)

Here is my prediction.
major update to Diablo coming within the next two months. hopefully rotation and dual boot among other things.
Wimax will be released when carriers get their networks up and running. Good luck. ;)
Fremantle will start releasing small samples towards end of year to developers.
N900 released around March or April of next year with hspa in but not activated. :)
Then in middle of summer they will release the full Blown Fremantle and that activates hspa fully.
This gives Nokia time to get bugs out and lets the community play with the new toy. The community will love it because although hspa isn't activated they do get a significant speed boost, graphic capabilities, hd camera(software will come later), etc...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Your timeline is probably right, but dual boot and rotation? Pfffffffffffffffft.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

That is what I'm interested in as a lay person. I let you expert work on the more complicated stuff that I'm not up on.
How about making some predictions of your own Gen.
You seem to regularly hit the mark.
What do you think of my other predictions especially release of N900.?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Ha. Nokia seems pretty dead set on making me wrong these days. . . .

Well, they've mostly laid the timeline out for us already. There's no way they'll ship it with HSPA disabled.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

But it's always a fun trip for me...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

The reason I said disabled maybe, not fully functional is better, is that there's way too much work on the other parts of software to make the aggressive release timelines they laid out. Qgil said they are starting to hire software people. Personally I would have done that six months ago but then I have a US based management style and not european management approach.
When I bought my N800 the camera software was lacking and it still does almost two years later. Same for N810 and gps. People still like the other features enough to by those products because the other features give them hope.
Personally I like having hspa but if its not fully operational I can wait. Give me two full sdhc slots, much faster processor, hd camera and graphic acceleration and I'm happy till the other components are ready for primetime. If I bought and Apple I would be pissed if it wasn't all fully functional but this is linux so I expect delays. No insult to linux platform.

Come to think of it if I was Nokia I would go ahead and release the wimax version next month with some Fremantle or next big Diablo to test out and then April - March 2009 release N900 with full out Fremantle.
Care to make any predictions Texrat. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Read: starting to hire MORE software people.

EDIT: no more predictions. I have already received one cautionary email. :D

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I stand corrected. But American management tends to act in a more completely aggressive charge full ahead manner than the Europeans more methodical approach. Both in the end both get to the same conclusion (market domination) its just the approach is different. Nokia seems to be like an assassin, whereas Apple is more like the calvary. One picks off targets one at a time the other goes after all the targets.
I'm looking forward to qt apps.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Check their excuse why they did not update Diablo SDK repository with sources after latest SSU update
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3648#c3

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

EDIT: no more predictions. I have already received one cautionary email. :D[/QUOTE]

Sorry. I hope it wasn't me.
Strategic and senior management is my speciality.

I would pass on to your bosses that they release the wimax soon with next big Diablo and use it to test Fremantle as it comes along. I'm sure they will have changed the processor to the new family for wimax edition.

Please note no one has provided me any info on anything I have predicted. Its the way I as an American executive would steer the launches. I'm not looking for you or anyone else at Nokia to compromise your positions. As you said its fun.
Personally I'm happy with whats been announced. Just make sure it has two full sdhc cards or it won't sell. That's one of the major things that sets tablets apart from the other players. don't go there Gen. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

PE2?

Whats this short for? Pseudo-Elephanta?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Thanks fanoush.
Glad they decided to wait for full release.
I'm used to waiting. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I'm sure they won't have. Why completely redesign the device to stuff it in the same shell? Besides, they've had N810W prototype/preproduction/pulled-a-few-out-of-production/something units out already, demoed them, etc. They couldn't have had the new processor then.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

If I were bringing to market several new devices that are similar in function but use two different wireless technologies I would test them with the new chipset and not old technology. IMO

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Anyone think they might throw in OLED screen with haptic?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

You're a bit off here. The Wimax version has been ready for months upon months and uses the same old processor. If Nokia was going to push WiMax, they would have done it before this announcement of Maemo 5.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

No wimax yet and they just delayed it again so I wouldn't be surprised if they repackaged the wimax with the new processor. They did say it was a class of processors and devices. Testing new processor with wimax would give them a good deal of experience in a short time frame for when they release the hspa version. I always saw the wimax as a throwaway to test a future platform. Its quite ambitious on Nokia part and if they pull it off they will definitely be guiding the industry and setting the standards for the next couple of years.
Of course this is all my own strategery. ;) no Nokia employees were harmed in these rambling thoughts.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Did you just grant us the right to say 'told ya so' if the N810W is in fact just an N810 with a WiMAX radio added and no major components replaced? :p

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I think that the people who think that voip over cellular data is an option forget something important:
-cellular bandwidth is limited. Much more than you realise, even on 3G networks. The only way around that limitation is to add more cells, but that costs money. And there are already more cells than you realise: next time you go to a busy part of town, look around and you will find the antennas. I live in Munich, Germany. In pedestrian streets, you will find picocells every 100 meters in average (all carriers combined).
Of course it helps if you know how the antennas look like
-sip uses more bandwidth than voice, sometimes as much as 10 times. The gsm codec is very efficient (5600bits/s half-rate), compared to g.711 (64Kbits/s, a real waste, but part of sip specs), ilbc (15Kbits/s), or even g.729a/b (8Kbits/s). Even when the same codec is used (sip can use the gsm codec), the fact that it runs over a data connection adds two layers of protocol: ip and the data connection use an additional encapsulating layer on the air interface (it matters more if you lose one packet of data than one packet of voice).

This is the main drive behind the telcos blocking sip. They would rather give you unlimited voice calls than have you run g.711 on their network (and it happens often that sip adapters don't agree on anything else).

In Germany, all cellular carriers have changed their contracts about two years ago to specify that voip is not allowed. It took them two years to have the limitation active, because that is the usual maximum contract length. And that will hold in court: if you sign as a user that you are not allowed to run voip, there is no way you can complain.


So sorry, but a tablet with a data contract is not a phone. And I am pretty sure that Nokia knows this.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

and the reason for the number of cells is that the frequencies used for umts have poor penetration compared to gsm ones. basically, just about any kind of concrete or brick building will reduce the signal, iirc.

so in a urban environment you cant really stick a umts antenna on a couple of rooftops and expect the signal to reach for kilometers.

then there is the number of handsets that can be in active use inside a cell. while both gsm and umts is more effective there then the old analog systems (digital packet switching helps) there is still a upper limit.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Correct. The carriers here start to change their products... The new contracts have an almost ridiculous download limit of around 500MB/month, afterwards they reduce your speed to 64kbps. The old contracts had download limits in the GB-range...

The only reason for this is that mobile internet is so popular here meanwhile that they reached the point where it's hard to keep up with the infrastructure.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Not really. UMTS typically runs around 2GHz (in some countries lower bands are also used, list here), and 1,8GHz is also used for GSM for example. Besides, for steel-reinforced concrete, 2GHz often goes through while 900Mhz (typical first generation GSM) does not. You should also realise that a large part of the propagation goes via reflections (e.g. on walls), in some cases streets act as waveguides. Propagation in these frequency bands and in cities is relatively complex.

As far as the air interface is concerned, the main characteristic of UMTS is that it uses spread spectrum on a 5 MHz wide channel. This is mainly what makes it different from GSM which uses TDMA on 200 KHz wide channels. UMTS degrades more softly when propagation is bad or when more users are added to a given cell.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

hmm, that contradicts what i read while the local telcos where building umts and had issue with coverage indoors in the cities.

but then funny little details about these things keep sneaking up on me and altering my understanding of things...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

It does not necessarily contradicts your information. Telcos do have issues with indoor coverage and umts. They have similar issues with GSM 1800, a bit different issues with gsm 900.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

ok, the reasons for that problem is just more complicated then reported in other words.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Yes, you made some good points with your compares of SS7 & SIP over HS*PA however despite that the codecs wouldn't saturate the connection. Most data plans provide far more than 64 kbit/sec upload.

Now lets say 64 kbit up, and 64 kbit down, that is approx 1 MB per minute. If you have a data plan of 1 GB/month for 30 EUR, you pay 0,03 EUR for 1 MB. For international data calls you can't beat that.

That also depends on whether you use TCP or UDP.

I'm not sure they're blocking SIP.

But they're not providing unlimited voice calls either. And you know why they don't do that. There is no incentive.

In a healthy environment, telcos would compete with each other but we don't see this in the GSM/3G market very much.

Yes, there is. Nobody knows if the contract holds up in court. It is gonna be a lot tougher though.

And minors I recommend to sign any contract they're getting. Because these aren't legally binding because they're under age! :D

One thing is sure: for international data calls, SIP is worth it.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Same with WiMAX.

In practice it differs a lot where and how big these coverage issues are. For example, in the Netherlands KPN and Vodafone provide very good coverage while T-Mobile (ironically also the one who got the iPhone 3G contract) has its fair share of problems.

BTW, it isn't always the telcos fault if there is bad coverage in a specific building. You will find that often there is a lot of interference from materials such as metals. Or its something related to some government law...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

The problem tends to be one of latency, rather than bandwidth. I've used SIP with the G729 and GSM codecs quite happily (as an experiment) over GPRS. But the same wasn't practical over 3G (UMTS) because of the latency. However, HSPA has much lower latency than UMTS, so should be more feasible.

SIP is a protocol, not a voice technology. And saying that it uses more bandwidth than voice is a misnomer. Voice on POTS is transmited at 64k, either u-law or a-law, and this is _usually_ the default codec used for SIP-based VOIP providers.

Voice over GSM uses, unsurprisingly, the GSM codec, which was created for transmitting voice over the limited bandwidth. So comparing u-law over 3G to GSM isn't a fair comparison.

Considering the minor difference in compression, the G729 codec offers a surprising quality boost over GSM. Plus, it is supported by the N8x0 SIP client and GSM isn't.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I stated this a bit earlier in the thread, but in addition to what you've already stated, seems like a few of us are seeing the picture beyond the IT.

Very cool...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

3G is not UMTS. UMTS is considered part of 3G, like HS*PA.

Didn't know this specific difference. This is very interesting, and good news.

I suppose Jerome was referring to the most popular audio codec for SIP.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

You don't understand. If the cell is only serving you, your figures are correct. In real usage, and more so if everybody tries to use voip, umts (or hsdpa, which really is umts with a better modem) degrades. You won't get that upload.

What is so difficult to understand? Radio is simple: you have one medium and it has a maximum capacity. Whatever tricks you use, when the capacity is exhausted, that's it.


I am not comparing codecs, I am explaining the fundamental problem telcos have with sip over air. It is not a technological problem, it is a marketing problem. It is a bit like the famous "tragedy of the commons": when customers pay 10 times less per calls, some save 90% (which is not really a problem) and some think they can phone for 10 times as long. The system is not financially tenable in the second case, especially if these users chose wasteful codecs (out of ignorance usually).

You don't have that problem with wires, because it is not a shared medium. When some users bog down their connection running p2p clients like mad or having skype relaying the traffic of half the planet, it is not a problem for the rest of the users. You have a problem with data over air, because when one user abuses the cell, everybody's connection goes dripping. And building additional cells costs money.

It works when the cell is not overloaded. When the cell gets busy, latency degrades. I have used sip and skype over umts without much problem. With hsdpa, I can even use google video talk.

I don't think that latency would be much different between umts and hsdpa. It's the same system, really. hsdpa just uses a more efficient modulation.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

That's right. A problem we have doing the RNP (Radio Network Planning) for 3G networks, is that the cell capacity per user decreases with the number of users (they share a fixed bandwidth), but also the cell size become smaller as the number of users in the cell grows. In some cases we saw some zones lossing the signal (becoming black zones) when the number of users in a cell increases significantly.

This is why, in Europe when they have a special event like a football cup final, the operators install in the surroundings of the stadium temporary cells to cope with the increase traffic and the high number of users per cell.