Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

You do if you want anyone to take your point of view seriously.

Sorry, but if you're not willing to explain your point of view, you deserve to not have people bother listening to you. If you can't be bothered to explain yourself, I can't be bothered to listen to you.

And telling others to "go read my posts" for that information is both childish and, in your case, misleading. I've read most of your posts, and frankly you've never tried to explain anything you've said or done. So there's no place to "go read" that does what you're saying.

Man up... Explain your reasons for your viewpoints. If nothing else it will help you clarify your own views, and give others insight on how you come to conclusions.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

You're on crack. It targets x86 for the same reason Maemo does: emulation and debugging. Most people have PCs that they want to develop on and do virtual testing to get the easy 90% of the bugs out of the way on without having to debug on the device.

So let me ask this again. What other ARM based devices are planned to run MeeGo? 0. None. Zip. And since there aren't millions of ARM based PCs that people are going to use to debug their code on, ARM has a limited life cycle on MeeGo once non-ARM devices are introduced.

Right now, it's there for N900/N950/N9. But once the N9 hits the market, N900 specific hacks will be less and less supported. And once the N9 is gone and Intel based systems are out, ARM support will go away even more. The only way that's going to change is if more ARM based devices become available running MeeGo. That could happen, in which case we're in luck. But none have been announced yet beyond the N9 (by any company, not just Nokia). Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

And where did I say that? I never said MeeGo wasn't intended to run on the N900. I said the N900 was never designed with the intent that it would run MeeGo. You're calling fud on me say X was not intended for Y, when what I said was Y was not intended for X. Maybe if you read what people are writing instead of just screaming "FUD" all the time you wouldn't make such simple mis-interpretations.

And lets be clear here. MeeGo added support for the N900 early because it was the only device that met the criteria for it's design purposes. MeeGo needed a device that:

• Allowed users to flash/boot a new OS at will (or boot from sd)
• Was produced in the past year or two
• Had enough memory, storage and processor space
• Was produced in enough quantity to be reasonably available
• Handled all the hardware expected in new devices (3G, GSM,wifi, bt, etc)
• Had a viable and established open-source community around it

Again, I'm not talking about how many projects there are, or how many more developers there were for X vs Y. I talking about pure and simple numbers here. There are more N900s out there, and the hardware (minus the USB port) is robust enough and modern enough that it's not being outdated as quickly as it's ancestors.

You're comparing apples and amigas. They're not the same.

Again, you're totally allowed to think that. I, personally, do not think MeegoCE is going to ever get to the point that it can do what Maemo did from the day it shipped, yet alone what it can do now. And if it can't do that, it's not going to prevent the demise of the device any more than iOS updating is going to help it. If it makes it to something even close to feature parity with PR1.0 (or better), then I may change my tune. But right now, where I see it going, it's not going to make it. I'd love to be proven wrong... I really would. But I just don't think it's going to happen.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I don't understand why I have to spend time making the tools to parse the data while you can just throw around your opinions.

Maybe. What's your point? As I said I don't have data during the N810's peak, so I can't extract any meaningful data from it. If I had, the same argument could surely be made about the N8x0 peaks.

So I tested it.
For August 2011, there were only 145 unique N900 applications updated.
For February 2009, there were 219 unique N8x0 applications updated.
So yes, during N900 times there are more builds per application than during N810 times.

However, I do not see why you're pointing this out, because it plays against the N900. Even less software is being updated for the N900 than what I thought!

Data seems to say otherwise. Plus, are you by any chance saying that the N8x0 developers didn't get experienced with the platform after 2 years?

I guess you should try and take off your N900-centric glasses.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

So, by that reasoning, its main target is ARM, as it only targets x86 for emulation and debugging. Why are you point this to me?

It was you the one who was FUDing saying Meego's main target is x86!

So what? Are there any devices planned to run Maemo, other than the N9?

I think the quality of arguments is again decreasing.
It seems stupid to me that you are arguing that ARM devices are scarce. Specially to developers of a distro whose main target is ARM. You should go shopping around sometime. A hint: there are predictions saying it's going to take over x86. Note that I disagree, but the fact these predictions exist probably say something about the number of "ARM based PCs" currently around.


So. My main point in this argument has always been that the fact that these hacks (closed blobs, etc.) are present in a much more reduced number in the MeegoCE for the N900, it will be MUCH easier to keep those supported. The Maemo ones are already dead. How many times will I have to repeat this?

The rest of this message is just answering for the fun of it. You can ignore it if you want...


I don't understand how you were able to, on a single paragraph, both mention "the release of the N9 is going to hurt Meego for the N900" and "the release of the N9 is the going to help".

You're going to also say there were conditional statements on this one? MeegoCE has _obviously_ been promised to work on the N900.

Well, please instate your intentions clearlier then. I don't understand why you are using this as an argument either way. Both the software manufacturer (MeegoCE team) and the hardware manufacturer (Nokia) are kinda keen on getting MeegoCE on the N900. It's not like they've sued each other.

I don't know, wouldn't that be because Nokia paid for it to happen? I'm just completely surprised how can you ignore this documented fact and instead go on and reinvent history.


Ah, another N900centrism. You all sept2009ers could try and be a little less N900 centric, really.

For a start, the N8x0 is a) more resilient b ) has around the same specs than the iPhone 1 (both being release around the same time).
There are obviously not more N810s out there, but as data shows, the interesting users/total users ratio was much, much higher in N810 times.


I do not think MeegoCE is going to get to the point that it can do what Maemo did from the day it shipped either.

That's not changing my predictions though. You can read why on my previous messages.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I believe what's going on here is called "projection". You seem to think that because you think X about MeeGo, that I think the same thing about Maemo. Since to you Maemo is dead and the the "only way forward" is with MeeGo, you project that I think MeeGo is dead and the only way forward is with Maemo. That's simply not the case. Please... read what I'm saying. Not what you think I'm saying. For example:

See? This is a blatant lie. I really dislike when people claim I've said something when I never said it. I never said MeeGo's main target is x86! I didn't even know MeeGo had an x86 target until you brought it up! Why would you attribute me with claiming something about a target I didn't even know existed until 2 posts ago?

Again, just targeting a platform does not mean it's designed to run on that platform! My example was the MAEMO has an x86 target for debugging purposes only. Even though it has that target, there are no released devices on x86 hardware, and never will be. Does the fact Maemo has a target for x86 mean Maemo was designed for x86? No.

I assume that MeeGo has an x86 target for similar debugging purposes, as I know of no devices coming up for it running x86. But I never stated anything about MeeGo being targeted for x86.

My objection was to you claiming that "MeeGo can target ARM, ergo it's designed for it." I'm saying, that's not necessarily the case.


I believe MeeGo targeted ARM because Nokia had several potential platform targets slated that were also ARM (N950/N9 and beyond). I also believe the N900 was the only sufficient device to do development on, thus it's choice for a special back-port. Now that Nokia has shifted, it isn't committed to bringing MeeGo to several more ARM based devices. The only announced future MeeGo devices (from LG & Intel) are running Atom or Snapdragon. I therefor suspect ARM support will wither, or at the very least become stagnant or far less active.

Call that FUD if you like. I call that logic.

Again... If another ARM based device is in someone's pipeline, that could change. But I don't know of any. DO YOU? (Third time I've asked....)

No, there aren't. Which is why I'm not claiming Maemo is the savior of the ARM universe and the only path people should be working for the N900. I'm also not saying that there will be updates monthly, forever and ever for the N900. You, on the other hand, are saying MeeGo will see "much more development" that will somehow magically translate to MeeGoCE and apply to the N900. I'm disagreeing with the later part of that assumption (and partially with the former part of it as well, now that Nokia is backing away from MeeGo).

My viewpoint is that currently Maemo is superior in stability and maturity, and I don't see MeeGo reaching even a vaguely similar point before being incompatible with the N900 hardware. That's it... End of sentence. Anything else rattling around in your head about "x86 targets" and which one is more future proof is all your own doing.

Sigh.. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said ARM based devices are scarce. In fact, in sheer numbers, there are already more ARM devices in the world today than there are Intel x86/P# based devices. The thing is, most people don't see ARM based computers as "computers". ARM has a totally different market segment, living mainly in the embedded and realtime world. I know, I work in that segment. I have 9 ARM based devices on my desk right now, not including the N900.

Most of those ARM based devices are small, slow, low-power, single-task systems. Most don't have a display of any sort, and are tied to simple devices that help perform the single function they're designed to accomplish. ARM chipsets are designed to make a quick one-off prototype that can then be mass marketed, and generally run on low power (or batteries) for long periods of time. It's only recently that ARM has been edging into the PC market, and that's only because the "smart phone" trend has pushed them into the low-power tablet market. There will always be a place for both. ARMs are just starting to become more visible now, since they are slowly catching up speed wise (1Ghz range), while Intel has plateaued for some time now in the 3Ghz area.

Reality is that the N900 is one of the few mass-marketed devices that met the criteria for running MeeGo. Show me another ARM based device on the market that has GSM, wifi, a keyboard, touch screen, Gigs of space, reasonable ram, and a fast core with an open bootloader. Just one? Can't, can you? No. Simple choice on Nokia/MeeGo's part, until there's another one to replace it (like the N9).


Yes, you've stated that many, many times. I acknowledged that I understood that you think that. I disagree in part because the fact that they're still closed means it will take sustained work to keep them going as the software around them changes. And eventually there may hit a point (MeeGo 2.0? 3.0?) Where the binaries no longer will be adaptable.

My concern is that I don't see enough progress happening between now and when that eventual point is reached to make MeeGo an improvement over what's already available in Maemo.

Again, I think your idea of "dead" is different than mine. I can still talk to wifi devices. I can still use bluetooth. I can still make GSM calls. Maemo binary blobs won't stop working because some new update in the core software causes an incompatibility. I don't see that as "dead".

I understand that by "dead" you mean the software around the blobs won't be updated much. And that the linkage will eventually cause (or is already causing) limits in what can be changed outside of that. I get that, I really do. But I also don't see as much of a need for change, as the basics of the system are fully functional in Maemo, where they sometimes are not in MeeGo.

What's hard to understand? With the N9 coming out, development will shift to it, and away from the N900. That means fewer people working on the N900, which means fewer people fixing and tweaking (or caring about) the N900. The fact that N9 is still ARM helps extend out how long the ARM branch has people working in/on it in MeeGo in general, which does help the N900. But make no mistake, once the shift toward the N9 happens, the N900 experience will start to degrade. And once the N9 passes it's 6 month window, without another ARM based device on the horizon, the entire ARM branch will start to close down.

The N9 is a mixed blessing. It helps and hurts at the same time. How is that hard to understand? Not everything is black and white. The world is really a lot of grey with a few areas of sharp contrast that people interpret as pure white or black lines. I really think there are few things that are truly back or white though.

By whom? Nokia has never promised it. MeeGo has never promised it. MeeGo CE has never promised that MeeGo would ever be "productised" or ready for the average N900 user. Who promised it? Please PLEASE PLEASE site that?

MeeGo CE is a community project that Nokia threw some money at to get a working base for their future phone slate. They did it to help the transition to the N950 and N9, which were very similar hardware wise. Nokia wanted to ramp up MeeGo so it would be ready for those launches. With the N950 dropped, and once N9 launches, I'm willing to bet good money that Nokia pulls every developer they have (contract or in-house) off the MeeGoCE project in 6 to 12 months; and that's being generous. It's just what they did with Diablo when Freemantle came around, and Freemantle when Harmattan work started. Why do you think MeeGo CE will be different?

At least with the N900 there was some room to think maybe it would be a little different because of the sheer number of devices being pumped out. (And an actual ad campaign, using real money.) But with things as they are for the N9, and no future devices lined up? When Nokia pulls that plug, how long will it be before the existing non-paid project members scatter for the next new thing? Will that be enough time to make it stable? Or to make those new blobs useful enough for people to convert?

I thought it was quite clear... And many people here who are thanking and joining in the conversation have had no difficulty understanding my point or meaning. You seem to be the only one that's unable to understand what I'm writing.

I think the issue here is you're just skimming what I'm reading, or making assumptions about what I'm thinking (projection) and reading things in that I'm not saying. There are several examples over the past dozen replies you've made (two in this post alone) where you claim I said something that I never said. When I ask for you to site where I said it, you can't because I never said it. You just think I said it, because you assume I'm the opposite of you. The one time you did cite something, it was something I said in a very conditional way, in a very specific context which was unrelated to what we were discussing.

Not for nothing, but when I claim you've said something, I almost always site it directly in the reply. That clears up this problem. When I think you're implying something, I ask if that's your view. I don't assume it is and pronounce that you've said it, when in fact you have not. You may want to try that some time... It's far less insulting and inflammatory.

Who's re-inventing history? Yes, Nokia paid for it. They paid for it because there was no real support for MeeGo on ARM until Nokia joined the party. Most of Nokias past devices and their future slate were all ARM based products. Of course they're going to pay people to bring the base to an ARM based device, so their first new device isn't the only thing ever to run it.

Nokia paid to bring enough support to MeeGo (via MeeGoCE) so that it could at least partially run it on the closest device they had to the upcoming devices. That gave them the experience they needed and a reasonable code base to start with for their upcoming slate. Choosing the N900 for that was just common sense.

What isn't common sense is what you seem to be claiming is obvious based on these facts. The fact that Nokia paid to have MeeGo partially backported to the N900 doesn't mean:

• Nokia is dedicating to bringing a full release of MeeGo to the N900
• Nokia is providing back-porting for MeeGo until it's stable and ready for Maemo users to convert to it
• That MeeGoCE is going to continue developing much beyond the N9 launch.

Fine... The N8x0 was sooo much better than the N900. It's even better than the iPhone1, just like you said... Happy? Yes, I'm N900 centric because it was my first device. If anything, that should mean I'm less married to Maemo, as I wasn't using it for a decade before the N900 came out.

Facts are facts. There were more N900s made than N8x0s. The production run was bigger, and there was a real advertising budget. Trying to compare the two is kind of pointless. I'm still not entirely clear why you're even comparing the two. Yes, production ends, development peeks, and declines. The same has either already happened, or will happen for MeeGo CE once the N9 is launched. That's, in fact, the crux of both of our arguments. We're just predicting different outcomes based on those inputs.

Tell me: When the N900 was announced, how much work happened on Diablo on Nokias part after that date? Why do you think that MeeGo CE is going to continue to see funding from Nokia once the N9 is launched? With Nokia not having a single MeeGo device slated after the N9, I'm not convinced they'll even be supporting MeeGo proper in 6 months, yet alone MeeGo CE.

And that's fine. It may in fact be the only point we agree on.

My bet is that functionality is going to keep more people than the shinny new half-baked MeeGo CE will attract, especially once Nokia drops it like a hot potato at the end of the month to go chase the N9 crowd and it's new line of WP7 devices.

Your bet would appear to be that MeeGo will continue to grow, and drag CE along for the ride. And that somehow that's going to attract more N900 people because it's "more update-able".

Like I said, we'll see in a couple years which pans out to be right.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

So, you didn't knew that Meego had an x86 target.... but you did know there was a Atom device in the pipeline? Well, I didn't.
So you say there are no Meego ARM devices in the pipeline, but you did know there is a Snapdragon in the pipeline? Well, Snapdragon is ARM. But that there's a Snapdragon device in the pipeline is news to me too.

So you say "Maemo is not designed for x86 because there's a x86 target". Therefore I understand that you think Maemo is designed for ARM. Well, MeegoCE is designed for ARM. What other architecture could it be designed for?

I am going to tell you of a few devices on the Meego pipeline: the N900. The N950. And the N9. And I don't mean Harmattan.

And _some_ of the MeegoCE development will come to the N900. For a start, there's the Components port. If that's not N9 development coming to the N900, I don't know what is.

So you now think that most people don't see ARM devices as computers. Most people don't know what ARM is. Of those who do, virtually all of them know they are _computers_ in the proper sense. On a noob forum I could understand such confusion.

But on THIS forum? You don't seem to have been here for long...

So you think the only device that has "GSM, wifi, a keyboard, touch screen, Gigs of space, reasonable ram, and a fast core with an open bootloader" is the N900. More stupidy. Have you looked at the list of _ARM_ devices Meego has been ported to? And why do you think GSM, keyboard are required?

Even the Beagleboard made it.

But more important, why wouldn't they _use_ the N900? Nokia paid for it.

So you think your closed blobs won't stop working. I hope you know that Google is currently implementing a special workaround in their servers for N900 video call support. When Google stops caring about the N900 (and I bet they will rather soon), you'd hopefully understand why it would have been better if you had been using the opensource Meego call UI.

Sometimes I do at least.

So you think that when development moves to the N9, MeegoCE people that are paid to work on the N900 will be first to move to the N9. Sure, they will move. But _all_ other developers will move there first.

If you only knew a bit of the people involved. Those are the guys that still pushed for the N8x0 MBX drivers despite the N900 being out.

You also fail to understand something. If you use a product way past its official support time, you no longer are "average user". Get that in your little head. Stop complaining about stuff not being made for the average user like if it was important for you, because the "average user" has already made another "voluntary" $600 contribution to Nokia and moved on.

You are here. MeegoCE project is targeting you. Take that as hint and contribute.

Little. But please note that MeegoCE is _already_ a larger effort from Nokia to release updated stuff for a past device than the previous attemps (HE editions) were. As said, that's virtually the only argument you N900-centric people can use.
But seemingly don't want.

And the fact that you don't even want to compare to the N8x0 (same forum, virtually same device & software, same company behind it, virtually same employees, virtually same userbase) should make you rethink the facts twice at least.




I'm getting tired of your complete _horrible_ mistakes about the history and the facts of Meego, like "no real support for MeeGo on ARM until Nokia joined the party" (how could that be if NOKIA IS THE DAMN FOUNDER OF MEEGO!!!!!!!!!), that when I rebuff you start saying that "I meant to say" or "you should have understood that".

If you want to keep this flamewar, please Google a bit before posting.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Yes... I read news articles and forums on occasion. People there tend to post things, like how LG is in the mix too. There have been several articles in the past year about other products in the pipeline from LG and Intel, targeting Atom and Snapdragon.

And you call me stupid? Snapdragon is Qualcomm, not ARM. It's partially based on some of the old ARM core architecture, and has a compatibility mode that lets it run some ARM binaries, but it's not at all ARM. That's like saying an Athlon is an Intel chip. In any case, there's a lot more in the package than just the processor core. Lots of that won't translate back to the N900, or the N9 for that matter.

Atom. Since it's core is pulled mainly from Moblin, which was specifically for Atom. Remember the other partner in this? Intel? They seem to think that's why they're in this:

Quote:

According to Intel, MeeGo was developed because Microsoft did not offer comprehensive Windows 7 support for the Atom processor.

ARM wasn't a target for Moblin. The "big task" for Nokia was doing work to port Moblin to ARM, and more specifically to add their sub architecture and supplemental drivers.

I know quite a bit about MeeGo, and it's origins. Someone who doesn't know the difference between a Cortex and a Snapdragon shouldn't be throwing stones when they're not well versed themselves...

Pipeline = future, not past. With the exception of the N9, all those devices are finished production. I talking about what's in the pipeline, meaning what's coming in the future. Again, who's ignorant?

Most don't see them as computers in the proper sense. Most systems using ARM chips are NOT computers in a proper sense. Is an oven timer a computer? How about a shake dispenser at McDonalds, is that a computer? How about a car alarm? They all use ARM processors, but most people wouldn't consider them a computer. And yes, on this forum people may know that ARM is a type of CPU, and that it happens to be the CPU in our N900s. But most people, even those here, don't know how wide-spread the family is, or how used they are in common electronics. And those that do know that a CPU is not a "computer" in common language.

You left out "recently produced and readily available". Sorry, MeeGo porting to the FreeRunner is great and all, but there were only about 2,000 of those made. They're not available for sale any more. They're not easy to come by. Again... READ what I'm writing.

And tell me... how is a Beagleboard at all like an N9? Did you not read where I said Nokia chose the N900 because it was the closest match with it's upcoming products? Perhaps it was confusion over the term pipeline still.

*palm-face* Did you read what I wrote? Did you even bother to read it at all? Did you NOT read the part where I said, yes, Nokia paid for it, and made the obvious choice to port it to the N900 because it was the closest thing to their future pipeline?

Really? You're going to use that as an example? Who gives a flying crap about video call support on Google? LOTS of devices don't support video call. In fact, there are very few that do!

What's more, most people don't want or use video calls. They're cumbersome. Most people don't even CALL these days. It's all texting unless you're trying to call a business or and older person who hasn't gotten the gist of texting yet. I have tons of friends with iPhones, not one has made a "Facetime" call since about 2 weeks after it was rolled out, with the exception of one deaf friend who uses it to call his mother every couple weeks.

Considering the N900 was barely even sold in the US (where I'm from), pretty much nobody here using one is the "average user". We're talking about a niche device here.

You'll note, I didn't say "average user". I said "average N900 user". I'm talking about the market the device was targeted toward. The N900 (with rare exception) was not marketed to the average consumer. It was targeted at a group of tech-savy people that wanted an open-source device with few limitations. Something they could build their own apps for, and tweak to their hearts desire, without needing to side-load, or root, or hack to get basic functionality.

Or as you would say, the "average user" for the N900 "knows what ARM is". Even for people that are tech savy, MeeGo is not ready as a day-to-day replacement for Maemo. You acknowledge this, and acknowledge that that's not likely to change before it's stale, but still seem to think MeeGo is somehow the future.

TacoBell is targeting me too. They send me coupons, and advertise all over the place. They even built a location near me! Do I have to patronize every group that targets me? No.

I'm contributing here, and in other endeavors that matter more to me. If video-calls were the thing I cared about most in life, maybe I'd be working on MeeGo. But Maemo does all I wanted and more. And frankly, MeeGo has been less than impressive.

Nokia didn't contribute to MeeGoCE as an effort to release stuff for their old device. If you think that then you're really nieve. Don't fool yourself. This wasn't a benevolent act on the part of Nokia. It was a calculated move, made to further their own goals, which have since shifted drastically due to a management change that nobody saw coming.

Nokia did this because they needed a test platform before their next launch. They probably also thought that just maybe, with enough luck, they could snag some of the developers into the new camp and get some good free labor.

The N900 has a very different form factor from the N800 series, and most importantly has GSM capabilities. That drastically changes the user base (and it's size), especially in a market where "smart phones" are the big thing. I wouldn't want an N8x0. I have plenty of Intel based tablets at home, and have seen lots of other tablets, pre and post iPad. But I pre-ordered an N900... twice. What you're calling the "virtually same device" has no appeal to me. The fact that you consider them equal makes me rethink what you present as fact...


And I'm getting tired of you telling lies about what I've said, but that doesn't seem to stop you. (See more below...)

It's clear now that you don't know the history of MeeGo. MeeGo's core is based on Moblin, which was started by Intel. MeeGo (the merging of Moblin and Maemo) is essentially the Moblin core with some Maemo folded in. But you don't have to take my word for that, here, read the MeeGo FAQ, question 4:

In that regard, when the merge started (as MeeGo was being announced) there was no ARM support. Both parties blended in ARM support by folding in Maemo code and pulling Maemo resources to help convert the parts of the Moblin core that needed it to handle ARM. The question of if ARM was even going to be supported was apparently so commonly asked that it made it on the list (see question 10 of the link above).

You mean when you lie and say I said things I've never said? Oh, look, you did it again. I've never said "I meant to say". Did you do a thread search? I did... Guess what... never said it. In fact, I only said "meant" once this entire thread, and not in the context you're implying.

And by saying "you should have understood", that's the polite way to point out that you should have known something (like pipeline = future) without just coming straight out and calling you stupid. It's called tact. You should try it some time.

Ah... I see the problem now. You think you're "at war" with me. I'm just trying to have a discussion. I suppose that's why you're calling names (stupid, etc), being insulting, and repeatedly claiming I've said things I've never said. You're responding emotionally, and frankly becoming more insulting and wild by the post.

Let me know if you want to actually talk about facts again some time. Until then, have fun with abil. :D

Btw: Google != facts. Try Googling "Big-Foot pictures"... tons of them. So Big-Foot exists?! I can Google it.. it must be factual, right? :rolleyes:

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

The problem for me is i do not want to talk to deaf ears and looking at the comments to all your explanations that are VERY good and VERY well put together, they are arguing with you and telling you that your posts are FUD.

I am normally used to dealing with PROPER developers who actually CAN see a problem pointed out by someone, anyone, unlike this lot you got on here who are supposed to be developers for the meego project.

They are either deaf blind and can not read English or they are just not prepared to admit failure, the latter i think is the case.

Meego should have at least moved on to be a flashable OS for the device, any device, and is still currently a VERY BASIC image run from SD.

It has very basic functionality and is not even capable of running the hardware of, in this case, the n900 as it falls short in all the area's stated by you.

Woody your doing an excellent job of trying to explain to these developers and your words are just not being noted in any way or form, instead they come back with argument against you, now do you really expect me to join in with you against these people knowing full well what will come out of it ?.

These developers really ARE either plain ignorant or plain stupid by playing games with words when at the end of the day NOTHING has moved forward, NOTHING has been agreed of the points you have made as they repeatably ignore from your posts.

IF i was troubleshooting this project the first thing that would have to happen is the developers involved MUST listen to anothers point of view such as yours instead of placing argument against you.

I have said this before and i will say it again... these lot need out of this project and new developers in because NOTHING they will listen too and NOTHING they will agree too as they come back in pure argument against ALL views against there development policies and progress.

My view after looking at all the replies on here is that they should give up and forget meego and go back to school and learn about PROGRESSION and how to put together a BASIC os from the first component to the very last in the device they are working too.

The team are so incapable of doing this, instead they use words and actually CRITISISE anyone who even dare try to tell them they are not only behind in there development but also incapable of moving forward and have no respect whatsoever for anyone outside of the project.

I am done with arguing with them because i will never get into this backward argument your having with them and the very reason i will not go into technical detail (you have done an exceptional job of this with them) because of there ignorance and the pure inability to even listen to
another point of view or critisism of there failing work.

Better you give up also with them woody because no ground will ever be gained with them.

These people should never have been allowed to touch meego development along with stskeeps as they have the wrong attitude from start to finnish.

I am truly sorry to be so blunt but i feel completely at a loss as to how ground can be made against such ignorance of these so called meego developers.

May i suggest ALL meego developers re-read all your posts and start over again with a different realisation of proper development.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

"MUST listen to anothers point of view"

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...cs/onehead.jpg

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Just goes to show how ignorant you really are !.

You get away with swearing like that because you put it inside animation, how about you put as much ingenuity into the meego project !.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

My point is that you _knew_ about x86 being target despite your insistence to the contrary ("I didn't even know MeeGo had an x86 target until you brought it up")

Ha ha ha ha. That's the second most funniest thing I've heard in this week. This thread was worth it after all. It made me laugh!

Are you realizing you just said the equivalent of "AMD is not a x86 processor"? The design might not be based in the Cortex RTL (but despite their PR they're a licensee). That does not make it a "non ARM" processors. Its main ISA is ARM. There's no other native ISA (if there's, where's it documented? I I would learn something!).

And I'm not going to call _you_ stupid. That would get me banned. But some of your arguments surely are.

Difference between Cortex and Snapdragon... Bah, please even google the correct names to compare before even trying to mention that to me (it's Scorpion -- or, if you want to compare Snapdragon, you should compare it to the OMAP. Which might be actually a valid argument, come to think of it...).

Plus, you seem to conveniently forget about MeeGo being based on the kernel.org GNU/Linux kernel (which, oh, supports ARM). Nokia didn't have to "fix MeeGo". They had to fix the upstream Kernel (they had been used the omap branch). And they were upstreaming already _before_ MeeGo.

And to say Nokia doesn't contribute to Meego other than the Qt GUI... look at sensord, ofono, even the kernel...

Meego does not support either the N950 (but will in a few weeks) or the N9. So we are not talking about the past.

You are an engineer. You should be able to tell they are computers.

So you ask around on this forum: is the N900 not a computer? What answer will you get?

The BeagleBoard is virtually the same hardware from the N900, and with recent revisions it is virtually the same hardware from the N9. Fremantle runs as is on it. Please Google around.

Well, I do use Google Talk video calls. What I am now, a bastard? Either way, next thing you hear is that the next Wi-Fi security protocol is not supported (tell that to me). Or that this newfangled WhatsUp can't be supported because it is missing a one-liner patch. Or that the new HTML5 standard/codec XXX doesn't work. You can find examples _everywhere_ you look of software obsolescence. I don't know why I have to listi them to you!

It was targeted to "young hipsters". Go check its public presentation.

Third funniest thing of the day. Nokia doesn't make prototypes, eh? For your information, THEY MADE prototypes. They were quite easy to see in the Meego conference... and not the latest.

More unfounded n900centrism... The N8x0 is not a tablet in your current sense (it's not exactly iPad formfactor). Go check it. Plus it's all "mobile computing".

Some Meego stuff from the FAQ I don't even know why you're quoting me (because it answers your errors instead of mines).


And yes, this is a textbook definition of flamewar.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Difference between Cortex and Snapdragon... Bah, please even google the correct names to compare before even trying to mention that to me.
Plus, you seem to conveniently forget about MeeGo being based on the kernel.org GNU/Linux kernel (which, oh, supports ARM). Nokia didn't have to "fix MeeGo". They had to fix the upstream Kernel (they had been used the omap branch). And they were upstreaming already _before_ MeeGo.
And to say Nokia doesn't contribute to Meego other than the Qt GUI... look at sensord, ofono, even the kernel...
Meego does not support either the N950 (but will in a few weeks) or the N9. So we are not talking about the past.
You are an engineer. You should be able to tell they are computers.
So you ask around on this forum: is the N900 not a computer?
The BeagleBoard is virtually the same hardware from the N900, and with recent revisions it is virtually the same hardware from the N9. Fremantle runs as is on it. Please Google around.
*palm-face* Did you read what I wrote? Did you even bother to read it at all? Did you NOT read the part where I said, yes, Nokia paid for it, and made the obvious choice to port it to the N900 because it was the closest thing to their future pipeline?
Well, I do use Google Talk video calls. What I am now, a bastard? Either way, next thing you hear is that the next Wi-Fi security protocol is not supported (tell that to me). Or that this newfangled WhatsUp can't be supported because it is missing a one-liner patch. Or that the new HTML5 standard/codec XXX doesn't work. You can find examples _everywhere_ you look of software obsolescence. I don't know why I'm listing them to you!
It was targeted to "young hipsters". Go check its presentation.
Third funniest thing of the day. Nokia doesn't make prototypes, eh? For your information, THEY MADE prototypes.
More unfounded n900centrism... The N8x0 is not a tablet in your current sense (it's not an iPad formfactor). Go check it.
Some Meego stuff from the FAQ I don't even know why you're quoting me (because it answers your errors instead of mines).
Plus yes, this is a textboot definition of Flamewar. Go check it.[/QUOTE]



Honestly mate i have never read so much CRAP !!! talk about put words into peoples mouths !.

YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A BULLY

Your just proving my previous post to be correct in every sense, why dont you stop trying to be a bighead and put some effort into the problems of meego.

All your doing is making argument and that is something NO development needs, the way your comng across is actually a bully and enciting your own argumentative behaviour is not going to get you any brownie points i can tell you.

Are you the new kind of wisdom we have in this world? because really nobody needs such behaviour within development.

Your post is nothing but a war of words and it actually sickens me to read your bullish tantrums.

PS I have shortened his post down so it does not fill a whole page.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

For a second I thought someone has stepped up his game and put in a bit of brain into his post (though the post read eerily familiar).... but as I scrolled down, I realize it was just a misuse of the quoting system... *sigh*

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

x86 is not Atom. AMD is not x86. An apple is not an orange...

And no, I didn't know about x86 being a target. I probably should have assumed MeeGo would have one (for debug use), but I'm pretty sure it's not actually a valid target for a full install, any more that it was for Maemo.

Funny how "your point" keeps changing. First your point was that MeeGo was for ARM (which I showed not to be true due to it's roots in Moblin). Then it was that "I said" MeeGo was targeted to x86, until I proved I said no such thing. Now it's that I "knew" about the target...

I find when people keep changing their "point", it's often because they don't have one.

It's not. It has a compatibility mode that allows it to emulate that code set rather well, but it's not at all x86. Even the Pentium line from Intel isn't x86 these days, as they've moved from that set to a RISC set. They still have an emulation mode, but it's not x86, and hasn't been for some time.

Yes. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Nokia had to go fix things upstream, to make Moblin (changing into MeeGo) ready for their slate of upcoming devices. That's exactly what I said. You call that "fixing the upstream kernel", I called it "folding in code to make MeeGo work". Thanks for making my point for me.

Btw: Just because a kernel supports compiling to a target, doesn't mean everything in it magically works on that target. Try compiling one of the open ATI drivers for Sparc some time and tell me how that goes.

Who said that? Not me! That was a quote from the MeeGo FAQ! Don't like it? Call MeeGo and tell them to fix their website.

Btw: ofono wasn't contributed by Nokia. ofono was a joint project by Intel and Nokia. But then I wouldn't expect you to know that... despite the fact that I've mentioned it twice already.

And you should be able to tell the difference between a CPU and a computer.

A computer, in common lingo, isn't any random device that happens to have a CPU. Most people wouldn't consider a car alarm or a garage door opener a computer. Yes, it has a micro controller in it. But that doesn't make it a computer. I have a solar powered calculator I bought at the dollar store... it has a micro in it, buried under a wax dot. Would you call that a computer? You'd be laughed at if you did.

This is all beside the point that there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel. And, the fact that you lied about me saying ARM processors are scarce, when I in fact said no such thing.

But then if you can't tell the difference between a computer and an over timer, why should I be surprised that you don't have the common sense to not lie, or to show humility at all when called on it, multiple times.

Yes.. you are... How many new N950 is Nokia going to produce? 0 How many new N900 will Nokia be making? 0 And yes, there will be more N9s, but again, I said "excluding N9, there are no other ARM based processors in the pipeline". So... Again, besides the N9, what other systems have been announced that are going to run MeeGo that are ARM based? There's one platform by LG, a couple by Intel, and a rumor of one by Samsung, and none of them are ARM.

I'm talking about what's in the pipeline (the future) hardware wise. Planned, but as yet unreleased hardware that has been announced, where the company creating it has said they plan on running MeeGo on it.

I'm not talking about what random old hardware MeeGo may or may not choose to try to get itself running on. That's not a pipeline, that's porting (or back porting) at best. Getting MeeGo to run on the Neo1973 doesn't mean it's in the pipeline. It means someone decided to backport something for old hardware they had laying around.

Yes, as is the iPhone, as is the FreeRunner, as are several other things. What's your point? The BeagleBoard is a hobby project kit. Nobody has turned it into a viable handset, or much else outside of the hobby world.

By which point, if it can't be emulated in software, good odds it will be so old that there's not much you'll be able to do with it anyway. Assuming it's still running by then.

I have an ancient 486 based tablet running Win98 at home. It only supports PCMCIA-16, and pre-dates USB. I had a wifi card for it but it only supported open and WEP. I can still use it on an open network, or setup a small sub-netted WEP network and SSH over it. I can still use it for lots of tasks, well over a decade after it was made. It's not my primary device any more, but then I doubt by 2019 my N900 will still be my primary device.

And tell me... if the blob that sits in Maemo doesn't support WPA5, do you really think the blob in MeeGo is going to? Unless that new standard comes out in the next 6 months, and the MeeGo CE folks quickly add support for it before Nokia pulls funding, it won't matter if I'm running Maemo, MeeGo, Android or anything else. A blob is a blob is a blob. And if AT&T buys up TMobil and re-purposes the 3G frequencies, no software in the world is going to get that back. MeeGo can't change the hardware to change the band it tunes to for 3G.

I'd love to. Link? I can tell you right now, Nokia didn't target anyone in the US. There was $0 spent on advertising the N900 for the US. Not a single commercial aired for it here. So please, do tell me where this targeting advertisement is...

I know in London they had a few displays. And there was a commercial made, though I'm not sure it ever made it to anything but YouTube. The N900 was quite solidly targeted at the geek crowd.

Even if it was targeted at "young hipsters", that still doesn't change the point. The "hipsters" it was targeted at would be the ones looking for a more opensource platform that they could tweak to their liking. It was not targeted at the generic Nokia phone purchaser, which (if you'll read what I wrote) is what I said. So my point still stands. This wasn't a common device for the "average user". When I said "average N900 user", I meant what I said. And the "average N900 user" is still not going to go for MeeGo unless it's stable, which currently it is not.

What the hell are you talking about? Prototypes of what? Who's talking about prototypes? You've really gone off into the wild on this.

I was (rather clearly) talking about Nokia's motivation to backport MeeGo to the N900. The motivation was two fold: One was to have test platform that specifically was NOT a prototype, something that they knew was solid and worked, and could boot into something besides MeeGo, to reset hardware, or what not. The other was to set it up so that people outside Nokia could work on the project, giving Nokia free labor.

I said absolutely nothing about prototypes. Prototypes are rather useless when trying to debug software, since it's harder to tell sometimes if it's the software that's hosed or the hardware. They're also useless when you're trying to get others to participate in development, unless you release said prototypes, which opens you up to all kinds of other issues. Better to port it to a platform that already exists, and is in the hands of your target audience, ready for use.

And before you say it, because I know you're going to, yes the N950 release was a prototype release. Tell me, how much good did releasing those hundred or so devices do, vs the backport to the N900. Despite MeeGo CE being near useless, I'm betting there are more community developers testing on the N900 then there are on N950s, even now when nearly every N950 produced has been handed out.


Wait... so an oven timer is a computer, but the N810 Internet Tablet from Nokia isn't a tablet?

FUD!

You said MeeGo always had ARM support. I quoted two parts of it's FAQ where MeeGo itself said that it was based on the Moblin core, which did not have support for ARM. I also noted that the question of if MeeGo would support ARM was so prevalent that it was addressed specifically in the FAQ. Meaning that it was so asked about, because it wasn't clear at first if MeeGo was going to support ARM (deriving from Moblin), that the project leads specifically put into the FAQ that they did plan on supporting ARM. Why, if it was "always supported" would they put that in the FAQ otherwise?

Funny how you claim to know so much about things, but then don't know the basics of where MeeGo spawned from.

Also, you argued with me above, saying:
Again, that's not something I said. What you're arguing with is a quote taken directly from the MeeGo FAQ.

So, while this has been fun, I'm pretty much done with this. I've proven my points, and said my part. You on the other hand have devolved to using 5-point font for such witty banter as "Ha Ha Ha", laughing at your own ignorance for not knowing that just because a device may be based on a core from another system doesn't mean it's the same thing. (Followed by the hysterical claim that AMD is x86...)

So, enjoy the little cave of almost-reality you live in. I'm off to continue work in the real world, where people sometimes actually listen to each other, and apply logic to their lives every now an then. :rolleyes:

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I'm pretty sure most of the worst of the bunch aren't even MeeGo developers. Javispedro, for example, said he's not using MeeGo and still runs Maemo on his N900. He's never claimed to work on MeeGo that I've seen, and is clearly unfamiliar with it's origins. I'm not sure he's a developer at all, given the inability to follow logic, and his clearly flawed understanding of system architecture. Plus, frankly, most developers I know tend to not lie randomly, and veer off topic with such zeal. :confused:

But I'm sad to say, to some degree you're right on this topic. I've wasted more time than I ever wanted to here. Most recently because of one person accusing me (with a lie) of saying something I never said. Remember, this recent bit all stated with Javispedro saying I called MeeGo a "waste of time", months after the conversation was pretty much over. Even he later admitted that what I said was said in such a conditional way that he couldn't argue his point.

Btw: Thanks for the explanation on why you're not explaining things. Ironically, in explaining that, you did explain something, and exactly as I said, I got insight into why you behave the way you do at times. It showed, I think for the first time, that you at least have a reason (logical or not) for not participating in the fashion many have asked you to.

I'm still confused as to why you would participate at all though, given your reasoning on not explaining your reasons. I mean, if it's not worth the effort to explain your reasoning and logic, they why is it worth the effort to post a reply that's little more that shouting and making claims without backing? In a way, isn't that lowering yourself to their level? Wouldn't it be better to not post at all? Or post in a clam manner with smaller snippets, or maybe a simple link that counters their argument. (Or at the very least some witty banter or cliche saying that could fit the tone?)

Just food for thought. :)

So long, and thanks for all the flames! :p

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

That's funny, cause I find you're doing the same. My main point has been clear since day one. I've used every opportunity I could to put it in clear, bold letters. But every time I've done so you've found a new excuse for why it doesn't matter: firstly, that the number of closed components was similar to Maemo (proven false), then, that Meego's goals were not to make an usable OS (proven false), then, that Meego's main target was not ARM (proven false).... what will come now?

In case you want to learn something, that's usually called "microcode". Doesn't mean the processor is not x86. /me sighs...


Oh, for the sake of god. Nokia _made_ MeeGo. It's not that they had to grab the Moblin kernel and add their stuff as you would like to believe. Nokia was (very, very slowly) putting their patches back into kernel.org. MeeGo's policy is to use upstream components as much as possible. Therefore, they grabbed both Nokia's upstreaming work (which had started way before MeeGo, even in the N8x0 times, from the work of usually single person teams), and Intel's work. And TI's work. And Google's work. You know how this Open Source thing works don't you?


I did not say it "only supported compiling".

You can do that too, in case you wondered.

So if it is a joint project of Intel and Nokia, what part of "contributed by Nokia" is false? Or do you think Intel made all the Nokia-specific ISI backend?

I work in CS. Can you tell me exactly why your solar powered calculator doesn't qualify as a computer? Or do you prefer to keep using inexact terms so that you can keep confusing me in every post you make?

You said there aren't millions of ARM PCs for developers to debug their code. Despite the fact you're above admitting there are far more ARM processors in the world than Intel.

Before you point it out, obviously, you're not going to debug Meego on your solar based battery calculator. But you should look around a bit more. For example, there have even been free BeagleBoards for Meego developers.


But WHY you assert that? Every _SINGLE_ device for where a MeegoCE project is started means more Meego development which literally means more lifetime for the MeegoCE on your n900. Why is this so hard to understand too? What do you need?


I thought we were talking about a platform where Meego could be debugged and developed (a role you wrongly assumed only the N900 could fill)? Why it does need to be a "viable handset outside of the hobby world"?


Bad example. All of it already runs in software.

Please note that WPA-TKIP was exactly designed to be usable ON HARDWARE THAT COULD DO WEP. It is one of the reasons it is universally considered weak. So your weak example actually proves my point. Where your driver to be open, you could have implemented a _working_ WPA-TKIP supplicant implementation for your card.

Sadly, it wasn't open. You didn't learn your lesson, seemingly.

Again you conveniently forget that Meego has MUCH fewer blobs (my main point, remember?). Among other things, the supplicant is entirely open.
Which is why I chose this example! What do you think I am, an idiot?


A blob is a blob. Two hundred blob are "too much". Four blobs are manageable. My main point again, heh.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe0rMUoHwyI
Probably you don't remember it.

Don't redefine my words. Young hipsters was imprecise, ok. But it does not mean opensource lovers for sure.


How come? It was step 5 of 5!


I am sorry, wouldn't they be able to do that even better on their prototypes with debug dock stations and so on? (Which is why I introduced the topic, in case you didn't notice. That's what Nokia does...)

That is a good point. It is after the entire reasoning behind open source, getting "free labor". They could also have chosen the Beagleboard for that. But, as I've said, Nokia was paying, I just find it natural they were to chose a hardware of their own.

See above.


Compare this forum and the Meego one for that. You have the answer in front of your eyes.

If you consider the iPad a tablet, then no, I do not believe they compete in the same market segment. But that's a belief. Market data tends to prove me right, though.



Ah, reading between the lines eh? I don't do that.

I seemingly know them better than you... could probably be because I've been monitoring it since day -1, and all of yours comes from reading a FAQ. You did not even know the number of closed packages in either Meego or Maemo!

Oh, I've enjoyed it quite much as you can see. I will be always there if you want to continue.

Note that as you can see in this thread, this forum has driven the real developers away. Only trolls (like me) remain. But keep believing that the community you are scaring away with your weird requirements will save you. You'll see how much you last.



And remember that my main point has always been. The fact that there's a reduced number of closed packages MATTERS. I am yet to see any valid argumentation for why it does NOT. Feel free to put some other incidental argument about why Meego sucks or something else. I'll reply for the fun of it. But my point remains.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Then why is he posting in the first place? why does he feel he needs to argue every point you make? because you proved something he does not agree with?.
He is not a meego developer but wants to prove what exactly ? and how does his posts benefit meego?.

OK now i understand why he is posting argumentative posts directed at you, but this does NOT help meego development.


I have read all of your posts and even though we do not agree in some part i will not argue with your views out of respect as a fellow engineer, please note that i am old school and was always taught to have the utmost respect for fellow engineers, software or hardware, and will not normally argue back.
Your posts are always put together very well with very plain and easy to understand technical detail.

I have worked with software development for many years and know very well how to structure hardware components making software development as straight forward as possible by making the flow chart structure that every software developer needs.

After analysing the actual development of the meego adaption for the n900 it was clear to see that teamwork did not exsist and that the basic os structure was just not happening and not coming together.

This is either due to bad teamwork structure or insufficent knowledge of how to put together an os OR lack of the right kind of OS software developers !.

Stskeeps informed me on the poll thread for Maemo that i started he had been supplied from Nokia the full source to the Maemo os and that obviously includes every single driver for every single component within the n900.

I have looked at the component flowchart of the n900 and i do not understand why the meego adaption development has not followed even the basic software flowchart of os design as it seems to start wrongly with the basic telephony components and stops there, certainly NOT as the hardware flowchart would suggest.

When i am dealing with proficient software developers i can go with them but what i have seen to date is nothing but a shambles and an entity with no teamwork exsisting hence why the meego adaption is a complete shambles and going nowhere.

Now look at the members on this forum and tell me just WHO is even capable of understanding even the points i have just made, now suggest to me how i even start to say the meego development is a complete shambles and not being put together in any reasonable fashion?????..... i would be shot down in flames by most everyone because they just do NOT understand "os" software development and the kind of teamwork that is needed to establish an os, something i can say for sure has never exsisted from stskeeps which shows in the direction and result of meego todate and the very reason i have simply stated things like "stop and go back to the drawing board" basically.

I am more than aware of how to structure an os and it is NOT something that can be taken lightly as it takes time and the right kind of "OS development" team to put together.

Now i can go a lot lot further and be a hell of a lot more technical if i want too but i do not see anyone on this forum with the knowledge of even understanding basic os structure but please point me in the direction of a member of the meego development "team" and i will talk about proficient os structure !.

Please note that my comments are only directed at the meego adaption for the N900.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Are you really suggesting that the N900 was marketed to normal Nokia phone users / hippsters, etc because it was "step 5 of 5"? I'm hoping it was sarcasm, otherwise you're really losing it.

You've been here long enough (well before the N900) to absolutely without a doubt know that the N900 was announced by Nokia to be "step 4 of 5" per the wikipedia entry, which references the talk by Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo, Anssi Vanjoki. (2 September 2009)

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Sshhht! Now he'll not have a reason to come back! ;)

EDIT: Not saying it was an intentional mistake. It wasn't.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Just how long is this useless batering going to go on? not only is it off topic it serves as no purpose to meego.

Would stskeeps or wmarone or a member of the so called meego development team like to present themselves on this thread because i have had enough once and for all, so a discussion can take place regarding this so called meego adaption for the n900? i have a few questions to ask.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

If you want to talk live to the Nokia N900 hardware adaptation team, feel free to come for a talk at the #meego-arm IRC channel and I'm sure they'll help clear up any questions

Simple steps:

Go to this webchat, type in a nickname, solve the CAPTCHA and press connect and it will take you straight to them.

Best times is in Finnish business hours 8-16, Finland timezone (UTC+3 at the moment, I believe) but people are around most of the time anyway.

Rules and regulations for the FreeNode chat network can be found at http://freenode.net/policy.shtml

You can also connect to the Cordia channel with by typing '/join #cordia' or '/join #maemo-ssu' for CSSU discussions (without the quotes), monitoring several channels at once.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I am not interested at all in joining that farce in any way or form, i would like this to be talked on here in front of every member of THIS forum ok.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Well, you have chased away every single MeeGo developer from this place by now, so if you want any questions answered, this is the way. Participation and proper discussion - it's all public, logged.

Come and tell them what you think of their architectual choices.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

tekki, your intentions are good, and I respect that, but Stskeeps left Talk because of abill_uk. Just sayin'

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I know, but proper development is about discussion and well, abill_uk is more than welcome to contribute with his discussion in the place things go on in, together with 211 other users.

Some people don't use forums. Some people don't use mailing lists. Some people don't use twitter.

Center of development is that IRC channel and everybody is welcome for a nice, calm discussion.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

In fact, please - anyone who has anything to say, woody, freemangordon, ivgalvez, whoever, come and talk to us.

We're straightforward, calm and usually a forum doesn't do justice to proper live conversation and often misunderstandings appear. For CSSU we'll also gladly answer any questions that we may be able to answer to help you along.

Don't be shy - after all, we might all learn something from each other.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I do not intend to repeat myself, there is no way i will talk anywhere but on this forum.

May i remind everyone that stskeeps actually hijacked my thread to tell everyone just how well meego was doing and that Maemo was basically a total loss, then made some rediculous thread to oust me from this community, a very childish act, then said his goodbyes and left.

Meego is abismally useless and the time it has taken to get a very basic ui in place with no futher advancement on that todate needs an explanation, only then will i fire some questions.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I'll make a note that you don't want to come have a calm discussion about your views - that's okay, but isn't views useless unless uttered? Maybe people are listening here, too. Stskeeps has said he still reads TMO.

Alternatively - not as good as IRC, you/any of you may submit your questions to the meego-handset mailing list. The CE team members hang out on there as well.

Simple steps:

* Go to http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-handset - add your email and real name
* You will get a confirmation URL with
* You can now mail meego-handset@lists.meego.com with your views and participate directly with your views in the project - telling them how wrong they are, etc.

There is also a forum thread where some people participate and discuss/announcing:

http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3733

To participate here, you can do simple steps of:
* Go to http://meego.com and register a meego.com account
* You can use this meego.com account on forum.meego.com to participate in the thread, post, etc.

Thank you for your time.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

What an opt-out that is, oh well i guess no member of the meego adaption team will participate on here.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

My irony detector just exploded.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Is that a promise???


Hallelujah!!! There is hope....

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Thanks for the invitation, I will keep it in case your (CE adaptation team) help is needed. There is no such for now though I am sure I will need some when return back to DSP project.

In a meantime would you reconsider your position to not contribute to CSSU, it is a big loss to this community that such good developers don't contribute. I know for some of you Maemo 5 is dead and developing for it is a waste of time, just hoping not all of you share this belief.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

http://acnefree123.com/uploadpic/w/wits_end.jpg

Are we there yet?

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Got a list of work items? First thing you need, to attract contributors. (This is not only for me, but for everyone)

Please do come have a chat anyway - a lot of enlightening things that is afterwards usable in CSSU is often spoken about, such as how things are glued together etc.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Here you are http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/QA

... but please, don't ask me to distribute working items, I am not a project manager here (not a CSSU team member either). Just a random contributor.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

*plonk*

see that, there? that was the end falling off the irony meter

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

My contention wasn't that it was the same amount, but that the items that are closed in both will cause both to meet their demise at about the same time. So, no... not "proven false".

Again, why would you build something not useable? No... I said that the goal of MeeGo CE was to make an OS for developers, not for every-day N900 users. Again, you lie about what I've said...

Why are you such a huge liar?

MeeGos main target (having started with Moblin) was Atom, not ARM. ARM was added as it was transitioned. So no, that was proven TRUE, not false, despite your objections to reality.

I know damn well what microcode is. The point being, AMD has never made an x86 line, nor have any of them be "x86". You saying it has is laughable, or pitiful, I'm not sure which.

Tell that to the MeeGo FAQ. They're the one saying it started with Moblin and derived from there.

I never said you did. Read wtf I'm writing. I said just having a target doesn't mean you can run the whole system on a platform designed around that target. You've implied that because the upstream kernel supported a compile option for ARM that MeeGo (or Moblin, or anything using that kernel) somehow magically works on the target, which is FALSE. In order for the whole system to work, it must all be ready to run on that platform, including drivers, libraries and middle-ware layers. Moblin was not capable of running on ARM because of that, and neither was MeeGo at it's conception, until Nokia rolled in it's changes.

Wow, what a great idea:
"Hi... MeeGo? Yes, I was told by a person that lies constantly about what I've said, that your origins aren't what you claim them to be on the FAQ on your site. Can you fix that? Thx!"

Call me silly: I believe a community FAQ written by the community in question just a smidge more than I do someone who's not involved in the project, and has lied over a dozen times about what I've said already.

The implication you made was that it was contributed by Nokia alone to a new project by Intel and Nokia. Reality is that Intel already had ofono, as it was a joint development. That would be two people buying a gift for themselves, then later opening it with people around, and you going "that one gave that gift to the other". No... ofono was a joint effort. MeeGo was a joint effort, by the same two companies. Nokia didn't bring ofono.

I work in CS too! And in CE, having a dual degree...

If I show said calculator to anyone without a degree in CS (and most people with one) and ask "what is this?" the answer will not be "a computer". It will be "a calculator". If I then ask "is it a computer?" most would still say no. In a strict sense, an abacus in a computer, since you can do computation on it. But that's not how the term is commonly used. This is all beside the point though.

Silly me, basing my "vague choice of words" on common usage.

Thanks for lyet another lie about what I've said. (Three times this post, for those counting along at home.)

What I said, had you bothered to read the post, was that there weren't enough ARM PCs with the correct level of hardware features commonly available. I even made a bullet pointed list of the requirements. You'll note that among them were things that even the latest BeagleBoard doesn't come with, like a GSM module, and a display.

But since you're playing these childish word games... Tell me: If there are so many ARM devices, and they're all "virtually identical" as you keep saying they are, why is it MeeGo doesn't work on the N950 and N9? I mean, really... if it all translates so well, and every pocket calculator is a suitable testing system, it should just work on the N950 and N9, shouldn't it?

And if they're "virtually the same hardware" as you've said many times now, what's the hold up? It's the same! You should be able to run it on the N8x0 and N7x00 as well, right?! They're virtually the same as a Beagle Board. You said so!

No... MeeGo can't. Because your logic is wrong... It's not a simple translation for one to the other. You need things to be very close, especially as the complexity of the system goes up. The oven timer software may very well run on my calculator. MeeGo will not. They all run ARM processors...


Yes, new sub-platform development is more MeeGo developmet, but the inverse is not true. More MeeGo CE like projects means LESS work on MeeGo CE, as people migrate to better platforms, and have limits on time. More MeeGo development also means more chance that the core will move on, causing old blobs to be incompatible. That will either cause CE to either need huge divergent changes to keep up, or to freeze once those binary blobs are no longer updating. Which part of that is hard for you to understand?

A frog in a pot of water will eventually die. A frog in a pot of boiling water will die much faster.

No.. not wrongly. Again: If the Beagle Board is so good, why is Meego not running on the N950 or N9 yet? Why can't it run on those if the Beagle Board is such a suitable test platform. The answer is, it's can't because it's not. Also, again: There would be far less interest (and far fewer people working on it) if one had to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on an otherwise useless kit just to join in.

Thanks again for proving my point. Again.

That's great... And how does that help AT&T turns on the TMobile 3G frequencies? Oh, wait... it doesn't.

The example about wifi I gave wasn't to talk about blobs. It was to talk about the fact that there are still methods to use hardware sometimes even when you can't upgrade it to the latest technology. For example, using an open wifi point and requiring ssh routing to get past the router. But that's not useful when the changes are locked into hardware. The N900 faces just such an issue around 3G. MeeGo can't fix that, even if it goes 100% opensource.

Your words, not mine.


Except that I mentioned it directly after the quote you cut, where I said "there was a commercial made, though I'm not sure it ever made it to anything but YouTube." Thanks for posting the link to the one example I gave as the exception, on YouTube.

Again, as far as I've seen, that advert was never played on any commercial station. There was not a second if air time purchased by Nokia for advertisement of the N900 in the US, and very little elsewhere, very similar to the campaign for the N9.

Perhaps if your words were a little clearer. Weren't you just criticizing me in that very post about not being clear?

Because they didn't put any funding behind advertising? Why are you asking me? Do I look like a Nokia decision maker? Do I have an @nokia.com tag in my signature?

I'm not debating if is should or shouldn't have. I'm talking about the factual past. The N900 was not targeted at the generic public. It was targeted, quite specifically, at a very narrow crowd.

This whole vein is off point though... you're good at that if nothing else: Squabbling about semantics and veering off topic when you're proven wrong, and/or have no facts to back up what you're saying.

Yes, Nokia can. Can you? Can the average developer? Maybe everyone developing for MeeGo could just go out and buy a multi-hundred dollar Beagle Board, on a whim, so that they can participate in Nokia/Intels new OS?

Or, here's a crazy idea: Nokia can spend a little bit on a small core of people to back-port the new OS to a platform that lots of developers already bought, and are carrying around in the their pocket right now! Imagine that! They can develop for it without having to purchases a multi-hundred dollar kit that serves no other purpose than to tinker on.

Which of those two ideas do you think will attract more developers for your new system? One where someone has to spend hundreds of dollars on an otherwise useless prototype system and then work to get it barely working? Or one where they already have a compatible system in their pocket, at 70% functionality?

Who's talking about market segment? You said the N810 wasn't a tablet. Just like I said that everything with an ARM processor in it isn't a "computer". Why do you have such a stick up you posterior about calling an oven timer a computer, but then don't want to call something the the word tablet in it's production title a tablet?

Oh, right.. I should follow your example, and lie about it, claiming that you said it instead, right?

Or it could be because you believe your own made up lies...

Tell you what... Let's just see...

In a year or two, I'm betting MeeGo is about as used as ofono is today (eg, not much). I'm also betting Maemo will still be the OS of choice on most N900s that are left, because the MeeGo CE project is dropped by Nokia and left behind, like Win 3.11 was when Win 95 came out. Time will tell.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

/me rubs hands together... Sorry folks, but I'm really having a good time doing this.
Maybe we could move this thread to offtopic so that it does not spam the Active Topics list? After all, all that could be said about the original thread question has been already said in post #3.




You said:
I then showed you some raw data that proved that the ratios of open/closed components were not only NOT "marginally different" but rather a few orders of magnitude different.
How are you going to avoid posting a retraction this time?

And that would be right.

/me sighs. Not only you completely disregard my past points about this, but you also ignore facts out there like first releases for the N900 being done in less than three months since the merger _announcement_ (releases that didn't have any binary blobs as I've said many times).

Ladies and gentlemen, woody14691, who hereby asserts that AMD has never made an x86 processor, that the Scorpion is not an ARM processor, and that does not know the difference between the Scorpion and the Snapdragon.
I'm sure you'll excuse if I laugh all the way down about this.

You surely must know there's a large difference between microcode+renaming (like in the Pentium Pro, NOT the Pentium) and emulation (like the Crusoe). Saying the Scorpion "emulates" the ARM ISA is just laughable, for many reasons. It _IMPLEMENTS_ it. If you read about any of the previous examples you'll know the difference.

Yeah. Which is why it was ready to go since nearly announcement day, as _even seen on the same FAQ entry you keep quoting around_.

My implication is that Nokia _contributed to it_, remember?
And before you try and warp reality to say it was an Intel-only project, read the ofono git logs. The first @nokia commit in the entire project history was done within the first half month! Virtually a year before Meego itself was announced.

If you were answered such a question in one of supposed double degree tests, would you answer "No, It's not a computer"? If you _really_ had a CS degree, you could even say what kind of computer architecture it is.

This also reminds me of your weird assertions about the x86 architecture that are against both common usage and technical usage.

And, if you had bothered to read mine, you'd know that I mentioned why those requirements were not realistic.

Again, your example has failed you, as there's both a N950 and a N9 image floating around, _even_ before the release of the N9.

Where? I mentioned that the Beagleboard is exactly like the N900 (a 3530 vs a 3430) and in later revisions like a N950/N9 (3730 vs 3630). The N8x0 were OMAP2, not OMAP3. The 770 (not the N7x00, you ignorant) was OMAP1.

I've elaborated why. Your turn.

I kinda remember something you yourself said about how this is not black and white.... about how you complained Meego was going to be dead because there were no new devices in the pipeline. So when I talk about how there might be, you then mention this hurts the project.

Classic.

See above.

I singled out this piece of hardware because it is one of the list that has been shipped for free to Meego developers. I even said it, I think...

Ok, so I reverse your example into something that is pure software based, at the same time converting it into an example for my point, and your reaction is to take it over the top until it really requires hw modifications. I could play that game too. But it doesn't help get the discussion moving.

What the heck does "Using an open wifi point and requiring ssh routing to get past the router" mean? "SSH routing" is one confusing term....

I personally saw it on the first day of the Barcelona Long Weekend, where then vicepresident Alberto Torres made a kind of presentation -- the fact that when I googled it a YouTube link showed up is purely coincidental. And btw, he did mention about the target being "young adults, heavy Facebook/IM users".

Ok, point taken. Let's ignore the part of Step 5 of 5 because I've already retracted.

"Multi-hundred" is rather stupid way of saying $125. Plus, as I've said, if you look at the Meego developer device distribution program...


I do NOT disagree with that plan. Note that you here used the word "back-port". That was exactly their contribution! They paid a team to backport their current in-dev OS to the N900.


(Semantics: Stupid example you used here. I call an oven timer a computer despite the fact the it doesn't have computer in the title. Wouldn't it make sense that I wouldn't call the N8x0 a tablet even if it has it on the title?)
_You_ started the talk about market segments. By saying the N8x0 and N900 where in different ones.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Holy **** I can't read all of this!

Smaller words and less of them!