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-   Jolla1 & TOH (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=56)
-   -   Update 1.0.9.n this week? (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93830)

billranton 2014-10-03 12:47
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
You're missing the point. They're tested with the rest of Sailfish in as many different configurations as they can muster. They put a huge amount of work into QA. Much more testing that a build on openrepos, of which some aren't even tested on a real device.
Every time you see a package version with an extra bit on the end, it's because their QA have found problems and fixed them so the packages work on Sailfish. There are quite a few of them.

vistaus 2014-10-03 18:15
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
And again: even with proper testing, problems can occur. See Apple's iOS 8. So testing a package with a new system update (which is the same in iOS 8 due to its nature) doesn't say much.

pichlo 2014-10-03 18:34
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1441720)
You're forgetting...
I am sure I was forgetting a lot of things in my imperfect analogy. I wrote it merely to illustrate how I made my decision. I consider an insecure shell on my phone a minor inconvenience that can wait till the next release. If I could not wait, then I would either let Johny fix it or, if I did not trust him, try to fix it myself. The third alternative, grumbling that it isn't fixed, just does not appeal to me.

m4r0v3r 2014-10-03 23:11
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by w00t (Post 1441701)
If Jolla were to ship a flasher, then that sort of thing would be significantly easier. Not having that means it's a much more complicated process, as messing it up (or more likely, us messing up) =~ send your device in for repair.

That's not to say it's a likely scenario. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I got my Jolla to an unbootable state while working at Jolla, and most of those were my fault. But it's still a valid problem.
the main issue that Stskeeps mentioned was Jolla themselves were not allowed to distribute the qualcomm binaries.

But couldn't the flasher/script pull them off the device being flashed beforehand and then build an image for flashing? Meaning it would only use what was already there, and hopefully would be within the legal lines

pichlo 2014-10-03 23:31
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4r0v3r (Post 1441788)
But couldn't the flasher/script pull them off the device being flashed beforehand and then build an image for flashing? Meaning it would only use what was already there, and hopefully would be within the legal lines
Wouldn't that somehow limit the usefullness of said flasher for fixing things like uninstalling the wrong thing or file system corruptions?

LouisDK 2014-10-04 00:52
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1441610)
I'd lower my expectations. They said weeks ago that Update 9 (or 1.1.x, as far as I know) will, among other things, upgrade the Qt version to 5.2. This may not bring a ton of new features, but it's a huge task for Jolla. Also, I remember someone from Jolla saying that even the following update (10) will probably be more bugfixing (bugs from 9) than anything else, because update 9 is so ambitious that they just expect bugs to appear once it's out on users' devices.

I don't know when we'll get an OS update full of new features, but I'd assume it won't be 9 or 10.

(Update 9 should enable a few things in the app world, though. At least that was the plan at some point.)
Thanks for the information. However I don't understand why they put so much effort into updating to Qt 5.2, instead of stabilizing their current software stack based upon Qt 5.0.

BB10 still uses Qt 4.8 which works out quite well for them. Also Qt 5.2 isn't the latest and greatest as latest Qt stable is 5.3 and Jolla could always switch to a newer Qt release at a later point.

Morpog 2014-10-04 07:35
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
QT4.8.x is a whole other story than QT5.x

QT4.8.x is at it's end of development and everything can be considered as stable. Wereas in QT5.x you got a lot of API's which are still being stabilized. You would never get more API's allowed in harbour without updating QT. And sure there is already QT5.3 released and QT5.4 as alpha released. But such big releases takes time and Jolla ain't BB with thousands of coders.

Also from what I read they had a few bad hacks/workarounds in Jolla's QT5.1 which they now fixed for QT5.2 using upstreamed versions which also took alot of manpower.

Last not to forget the new scenegraph renderer in QT5.2 which reduces memory consumption, CPU drawcalls and enables sane display scaling, so other resolutions can be used with less effort on UI code side.

Dave999 2014-10-04 07:46
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
The update is now one month delayed.

aQUICK1 2014-10-04 08:14
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1441811)
The update is now one month delayed.
For ur Jphone maybe yes,but for the Jolla its different lol.:D

Dave999 2014-10-04 08:39
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aQUICK1 (Post 1441814)
For ur Jphone maybe yes,but for the Jolla its different lol.:D
yep, and I totally fine with that. Just siting in my confy chair and counting minutes :D

What will come first? Jolla update or snow...

coderus 2014-10-04 09:18
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
in my city snow started falling today ;) (it's Chelyabinsk)

Dave999 2014-10-04 09:23
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderus (Post 1441819)
in my city snow started falling today ;) (it's Chelyabinsk)
Ok. So jolla just lost against snow.
Next up: Jolla update vs Santa

w00t 2014-10-04 12:34
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisDK (Post 1441803)
Thanks for the information. However I don't understand why they put so much effort into updating to Qt 5.2, instead of stabilizing their current software stack based upon Qt 5.0.

BB10 still uses Qt 4.8 which works out quite well for them. Also Qt 5.2 isn't the latest and greatest as latest Qt stable is 5.3 and Jolla could always switch to a newer Qt release at a later point.
The same stabilization problem will occur for *any* upgrade like that. There's a lot of code (millions of it), thousands of commits between each minor release, with new features/reworks/etc. Breakage is inevitable.

Granted, I expect the hop from 5.2 to future releases to be a bit calmer (no new js engine in QtQuick), but if we hadn't put the work into testing & stabilising now, we would have at some point in the future.

As for "why are you upgrading at all instead of stabilizing?" - minor version upgrades aren't just for all new and shiny things. Attention from upstream (& everyone else) doesn't stay on old releases indefinitely. 5.0 (and 5.1, which we are on now) has missed so many security fixes at this point it's ridiculous. We backported some, but I'm positive we missed plenty of others. Here's an example of how contributions to each branch changes over time:
http://www.macieira.org/~thiago/qt-s...h.absolute.png

4.8 is in a slightly better position here in that it's the last release of the 4.x line - it's not going to get any API changes etc, it's purely fix only. Plus the rate of change is significantly lower. So it's easier (and safer) to upgrade from 4.8.x to 4.8.x+1.

For some graphical examples of what I'm talking about:
https://www.openhub.net/p/qt5 - size and contribution rate to Qt 5.x
https://www.openhub.net/p/qt - size and contribution rate to Qt 4.x

[edit: also, Morpog's comment was pretty good]

LouisDK 2014-10-04 13:19
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by w00t (Post 1441830)
The same stabilization problem will occur for *any* upgrade like that. There's a lot of code (millions of it), thousands of commits between each minor release, with new features/reworks/etc. Breakage is inevitable.

Granted, I expect the hop from 5.2 to future releases to be a bit calmer (no new js engine in QtQuick), but if we hadn't put the work into testing & stabilising now, we would have at some point in the future.

As for "why are you upgrading at all instead of stabilizing?" - minor version upgrades aren't just for all new and shiny things. Attention from upstream (& everyone else) doesn't stay on old releases indefinitely. 5.0 (and 5.1, which we are on now) has missed so many security fixes at this point it's ridiculous. We backported some, but I'm positive we missed plenty of others. Here's an example of how contributions to each branch changes over time:
http://www.macieira.org/~thiago/qt-s...h.absolute.png

4.8 is in a slightly better position here in that it's the last release of the 4.x line - it's not going to get any API changes etc, it's purely fix only. Plus the rate of change is significantly lower. So it's easier (and safer) to upgrade from 4.8.x to 4.8.x+1.

For some graphical examples of what I'm talking about:
https://www.openhub.net/p/qt5 - size and contribution rate to Qt 5.x
https://www.openhub.net/p/qt - size and contribution rate to Qt 4.x

[edit: also, Morpog's comment was pretty good]
Tanks for the information. But will 5.2.x still get the same level of attention now that's 5.3 is out and 5.4 is in the pipe line?

I guess that Jolla would have to switch Qt version a couple of times a year to catch up with development, but as you point out future migrations should be a bit calmer. Because you expect Qt 5.x development to be more seamless?

Also I don't understand why the Sailfish SDK is still in Alpha, and get updated as long after a SailfishOS release. It should be updated prior to prepare developers for changes.

I do know that you're not a developer at Jolla anymore, just curious.

w00t 2014-10-04 16:01
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisDK (Post 1441832)
Tanks for the information. But will 5.2.x still get the same level of attention now that's 5.3 is out and 5.4 is in the pipe line?
Nope. But the release picked next will have gotten a significant amount of attention since (a great deal of it from us: we had a lot of fixes to 5.2 that went into the 5.3 and 5.4 branches).

It's a never ending game of catchup, basically. I don't expect a consumer product to ever be capable of running on purely an upstream release, although that would sure be a lovely goal to aim for.

(Right now, speaking about Qt in particular, I think they don't make enough patch releases, and when changes are made, they aren't always tested as rigorously as they should be.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisDK (Post 1441832)
I guess that Jolla would have to switch Qt version a couple of times a year to catch up with development, but as you point out future migrations should be a bit calmer. Because you expect Qt 5.x development to be more seamless?
There's a new minor release every 6 months, and patch releases every month or two (though this is not as often as it should be IMO)

Basically, I'd like to see more patch releases, especially for one particular minor release supported as "LTS" for maybe one year minimum instead of 6 months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisDK (Post 1441832)
Also I don't understand why the Sailfish SDK is still in Alpha, and get updated as long after a SailfishOS release. It should be updated prior to prepare developers for changes.
AFAIU (though this is not really my area of expertise): Once multiple version support is in store, this might be a bit more possible. Right now, if it was released, you wouldn't be able to distribute applications for the current release (due to the 5.2 requirement).

No denying, it would be nice. :)

MartinK 2014-10-04 17:13
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderus (Post 1441819)
in my city snow started falling today ;) (it's Chelyabinsk)
Everything is fine as long as it is just snow. ;)

vistaus 2014-10-04 18:37
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Everything is a game of catch-up really. In order to use feature x, you're gonna need to upgrade package y. In order to run Android app x, you're gonna need to upgrade the emulator to version 4.x In order to... well, do I need to explain any further? :P

Also: every 6 months for a Qt release is not too bad to manage. Any company using the same method as Jolla (using a .x release) always makes sure they have a branch for the upcoming version. So while Jolla is stabilizing the system update that contains 5.2, they already have (or will soon have) an internal branch with 5.3 support which they are testing from time to time. By the time 5.3 hits final, they can just use what they already have tested thus far and work out the last regressions. Just as what they are doing now with 5.2 :) And so on, and so on, and so on...

m4r0v3r 2014-10-04 19:46
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1441794)
Wouldn't that somehow limit the usefullness of said flasher for fixing things like uninstalling the wrong thing or file system corruptions?
i think system corruptions would be the most of it, but I mean it could be part of a PC backup that it would copy the binaries as well, just incase. It's not a perfect solution, but better than nothing

coderus 2014-10-04 19:51
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
it was said tons of times: while firmware contains proprietary blobs of some manufactures who not permit to distribute it flasher wont appear.

pichlo 2014-10-04 20:47
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
But why? The N900 image also has third party binary bobs and the flasher exists.

vistaus 2014-10-04 20:55
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1441879)
But why? The N900 image also has third party binary bobs and the flasher exists.
Same goes for webOS phones which had the 'webOS Doctor' officially distributed by Palm/HP (webOS Doctor was the name of the flasher).

coderus 2014-10-04 21:14
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
because it's different companies and different rules.

m4r0v3r 2014-10-04 22:01
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderus (Post 1441872)
it was said tons of times: while firmware contains proprietary blobs of some manufactures who not permit to distribute it flasher wont appear.
the whole point is that the blobs arent distributed, they are retrieved from the device. Meaning Jolla wouldn't be distributing them.

juiceme 2014-10-06 08:47
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderus (Post 1441872)
it was said tons of times: while firmware contains proprietary blobs of some manufactures who not permit to distribute it flasher wont appear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m4r0v3r (Post 1441883)
the whole point is that the blobs arent distributed, they are retrieved from the device. Meaning Jolla wouldn't be distributing them.
I think that is actually the plan.

I cannot remember now where it was mentioned but hat's how it's supposed to be; the flasher (or actually the preparation process for the flasher) pulls the proprietary packages off your device and stores them on your computer. Then, at a later time when you need to do it, you complement the bits-pulled-from-the-device with the freely distributable part and flash the resulting image to the device.

Leinad 2014-10-06 14:13
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Security Hotfix for Tahkalampi 1.0.8.21

Quote:
Given that update9 is still in its stabilization period, we decided to roll out the fixes for the recently discovered security vulnerabilities (along with a few others) to your devices while we continue to work with update9. This hotfix update fixes

bash vulnerabilities (Shellshock) - CVE-2014-7169, CVE-2014-6271
NSS vulnerabilities - CVE-2014-1568, CVE-2014-1544, CVE-2014-1491, CVE-2014-1490, CVE-2013-5605, CVE-2013-1739, CVE-2013-1741, CVE-2013-0791
Also fixed in the browser engine (Mozilla bug #1064636)
NSPR vulnerabilities - CVE-2014-1545, CVE-2013-5607

meet.vino 2014-10-06 15:47
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Update now available!!!!

meet.vino 2014-10-06 15:48
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
I have started downloading it now! Actually, its creating a backup now.

meet.vino 2014-10-06 15:49
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
And I am excited! Now why wouldnt I be?

aQUICK1 2014-10-06 15:50
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Yes! Lets have a look for the changes they made.

ps. Its just a security update, NOT the expected 9/10.;)

meet.vino 2014-10-06 15:56
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Updation over, but its not the Uitukka!! Its Tahkalampi Version 1.0.8.21. Is this some kind of a joke?

butler 2014-10-06 15:58
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
It's bugfix update, as Leinad stated.

Also in comments at TJC: "chances are slim to get u9 out during this week, we are working our way towards release candidate 11 now internally."

Edit: more specifically, it's CVE vulnerability fix, so no user-visible fixes should be expected.

meet.vino 2014-10-06 15:58
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Its a security hotfix for Tahkalampi Version 1.0.8.21.

ste-phan 2014-10-06 16:02
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
installed it, I feel much better now.
Eat this evil China / US hacker. :p

Kake41 2014-10-06 16:05
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Hmm... Stock Browser feels a bit different after the hotfix update.

Dave999 2014-10-06 16:12
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
http://www.stateofdigital.com/wp-con...available.jpeg

aegis 2014-10-06 17:43
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
"Also fixed in the browser engine (Mozilla bug #1064636)"

This seems to fix the problem where targets were off by the height of the toolbar under certain circumstances. It makes hitting the 'Active Topics' sidebar on TMO less random. :D

That's a very welcome fix before the full release.

Leinad 2014-10-06 18:10
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1442090)
"Also fixed in the browser engine (Mozilla bug #1064636)"

This seems to fix the problem where targets were off by the height of the toolbar under certain circumstances. It makes hitting the 'Active Topics' sidebar on TMO less random. :D

That's a very welcome fix before the full release.
Mozilla bug #1064636 has nothing to do with the offset, this is just a placebo effect ;)

It's about CVE-2014-1568 or better explained here: RSA Signature Forgery in NSS

The Bug is still blocked to public access atm: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1064636

Quote:
Generally, access to fixed security bugs in a release is not opened up for at least a week or two after the release date to ensure users have ample time to upgrade before specific technical details are made available. This is to ensure that attackers can't misuse this information on unsuspecting users before they have had a chance to upgrade to a patched version.
from http://web.archiveorange.com/archive...A8BaL4MFa57xEe

Makeclick 2014-10-06 18:13
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
start updating and then boot up again... still 1.0.8.19 and always find "new update".. i did install that Warehouse bash, could that be the problem?

Ok.. pkcon refresh fix the problem

bluefoot 2014-10-06 18:25
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1441610)
I'd lower my expectations. They said weeks ago that Update 9 (or 1.1.x, as far as I know) will, among other things, upgrade the Qt version to 5.2. This may not bring a ton of new features, but it's a huge task for Jolla. Also, I remember someone from Jolla saying that even the following update (10) will probably be more bugfixing (bugs from 9) than anything else, because update 9 is so ambitious that they just expect bugs to appear once it's out on users' devices.

I don't know when we'll get an OS update full of new features, but I'd assume it won't be 9 or 10.

(Update 9 should enable a few things in the app world, though. At least that was the plan at some point.)
I have. What you say rather confirms what I was thinking. I just hope there will be some major improvements by year end. Even if not for current or prospective users, Sailfish is still in dire need of UX and feature upgrades by MWC in early March ... otherwise I can't see too much business coming their way. Also, if they don't make the rather vapid "H2" commitment for paid apps, and remove most of the existing restrictions, things aren't looking great.

aegis 2014-10-06 19:03
Re: Update 1.0.9.n this week?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leinad (Post 1442094)
Mozilla bug #1064636 has nothing to do with the offset, this is just a placebo effect ;)
It seems to work now whereas it didn't before so it's not a placebo regardless of if it was that bug or not so it does look like they snuck in a fix.


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