Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Sorry I just went off the thread N900 shipping delayed. Secondly, this has only occured as so many people were kicking off that Peter said they'd announce it when they started shipping, which true to his word he did. It may have been better not to tell us anything so we heard about it when our suppliers emailled us.

Personally though I welcome the additional information as I know the end is nigh. It seems to me that Nokia's main problem is creating such a desirable piece of tech that people can't wait to get hold of it.

If you want a phone tomorrow, by an Iphone.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Well that's somewhat less impressive when it's almost three months since the device was announced. In the meantime I've seen the Motorola Droid go from announcement to release in a very smooth and transparent fashion.

The N97 was announced Dec 2008 and not released until June 2009.

Nokia is failing to deliver its products in a timely fashion and I seriously doubt anyone in the company is patting themselves on the backs over it. I also don't doubt they're working to do better.

Where they're not striving to do better is with consumer transparency with their release process. As I mentioned already this is a feature of every Nokia release - the "release announcement" is made but nobody can find the thing for sale. I see no indication at all Nokia considers this a problem or that it's something they're endeavouring to fix.

If Nokia thinks I shouldn't care when I get the product (as demonstrated by them not telling me) then why should I pay €500+ for it?

I strongly suspect Nokia does not share this view.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Just information and confirmation(www.mobil.se) that the reason for delay is due to compatibility issue with SIM ATK. This is from the site mobil.se. Feel free to use google translate Link to chat

This info is from an online chat with Nokia representatives.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

100% agree with you. With every mistake Nokia makes customers can easily look at other competitors and ask if they can do it, why can't you Nokia?

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

[QUOTE=sharper;375424]Well that's somewhat less impressive when it's almost three months since the device was announced. In the meantime I've seen the Motorola Droid go from announcement to release in a very smooth and transparent fashion.

/QUOTE]

Nokia's market cap $58 billion
Motorola's market cap $20 billion

Nokia must be able to do some things right like making phones.
Maybe it's taken longer because it's a new touchscreen OS whereas Motorola just used the one written by Google.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

[QUOTE=Moley;375436]Well besides the fact that Nokia makes phones on several levels from dirt cheap to high end. You can still manufacture a device while ironing out bugs. All the phone really needs is the capability to be upgraded once it arrives in the consumer's hands. Unless they're afraid of mass bricking.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

will the units have the marks "arm cortex ect" and "design in finland " ???

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

I don't understand your concept of 'transparency'.

Other manufacturers announce a device, and swiftly go to an available release date. This is because all their pre-announcement work is done in complete silence, with no information given to the public at all. By the time they make the announcement, the deal is almost completely sealed. The devices are created, and just being finished off. Then they are prepared, shipped, and held at the retailers until the permitted release date (meaning the device may be sitting around in warehouses for some time awaiting the Official Release Date) spot on time.

By comparison, Nokia told people about this device while it was still in development, hence the apparent long lead in. This meant that the community could have input, make suggestions and begin to prepare applications. Nokia was able to respond to the input and suggestions, which meant they didn't quite make their planned release - missing by a few weeks. Then rather than calling the 'release' the date that the device goes on sale at the stores, they informed people the moment it shipped out of the factory, leaving people awaiting its arrival at the retailers.

It seems to me that the problem is that Nokia has been too transparent for you, keeping you posted about the development. when what you would have prefered is silence until the device is complete, and a 'release date' that could be absolutely certain because it was not announced until the devices were actually already in the stores.

No-one likes hanging around waiting like this. But I feel Nokia has kept us as informed as they possibly could - posibly more than was healthy for those who don't handle waiting too well.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

@Kathy,

I think the problem is more that Nokia was open and transparent throughout the process until it came to the delay and then...nothing. Nothing until the announcement that they started shipping from the manufacturer. And now? Nothing.

A simple official statement about who would be receiving the units first (e.g. Nokia stores and MPD) and who would be receiving the units next (Amazon, etc..) would go a long way. Not when they would be receiving them. Just what order retailers are receiving them in. Or if all retailers are receiving units (but in percentages based on demand for example).

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Well the delay was... a delay. No, we weren't told exactly what caused it. We were told that it was in response to feedback from the 300 loan devices. I've said before that's as much as a manufacturer dare say - if they gave details of the problem it would stoke up rumours of some non-existent problem that will be fixed by release anyway.

As for information since the devices left the factory... that was Tuesday - it's only Friday now! It may feel like a century or two since Peter's announcement, but it's only three days. When will devices arrive at retailers? Well, that actually does depend on things like tides, Somali pirates, shipping companies, road haulage, and a range of things not quite under control. If you wanted exact details, Nokia should probably have waited till all the devices were delivered safely to retailers and then said 'go'!

The imformation about who gets priority and stuff like that seems like a more reasonable grumble, but only if you want to be One Of The First. I want the device before my current phone dies, but actually, I'm not that interested in being The First to be able to come in here and dance about it. If I'm a week behind the rest of you, well, so be it. I want it because it's a good device, not so I can be the first to have a new shiney toy.

Those places where there's been a serious delay (such as Sweden) have had a formal announcement. Other delays are just rumours.

Seems to me that a lot of the problems here are not about nokia not telling people, but about the tendency for people to fill the gaps with rumour, gossip, damned lies and statistics. ;)

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

It's fairly simple.

"Our product has been released and will be available to buy in the UK on November 25th, France November 27th, Poland November 30th, India December 15th" and so on.

People are getting topics very confused here. The product delay is over. The thing has shipped. Does anybody know anything more now than they did before it shipped? Nope.

As for the other stuff: Nokia announced the product at the end of August. At that point it seems highly likely they were planning an early October release. Instead delays have pushed it to late November. So while you're saying "But other manufacturers just show it to you later in the development cycle" that's because they're able to properly estimate their development cycle, Nokia constantly gets its wrong so it ends up showing off hardware that has months left to run instead of weeks.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

A fair fraction on would-be N900 users (particularly, I suspect, the ones posting here) have a background in and experience of the free software way of dong things and were attracted to Maemo because we were told that it was our kind of OS.

Mostly, I think that it is, but this sort of secrecy is not how we are used to things being done. You can be open about bugs and tests and fixes and delays without the sky falling in - we know that because that's how we do it, all the time.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

I could be wrong but I am getting the impression that the N900 may be a bit different a situation than the prior tablets. As it is, well, a phone as well as a tablet. Whether we like it or not the public and press will put it against mobile phones, something that probably makes Nokia management nervous as with this model of development they are putting all the cards on the table for the competition to see before the device is even released. Makes it easier for them to work out strategies against the device.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Here's an example of what a shipping notice should look like

http://www.htc.com/www/press.aspx?id=115674&lang=1033

Or

http://mediacenter.motorola.com/cont...8&NewsAreaID=2
Pretty simple huh? People look at the date and go "Oh that's the day it's out" and then go on with whatever they were doing.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

No, he can give delivery estimates - there are many factors outside of anyone's control. He is also the retailer - the final point on the supply chain.

Let's say his eror factor is 1% (that's probably being generous). Now scale that up from a single delivery to one place to millions going to thousands of destinations each with many supply processing and handling points in between. The estimates are all them completely different and billions of times more complex to make and feature many more other companies, processes and factors.

It is simply not fair to expect Nokia to be able to predict the quickest time a particular retailer in a particular country can get a device to you.

That's fine for you, but I would rater have the device as soon as possible.

Tell you what, I will personally give you a guaranteed delivery date. How does that sound?
If you have genuinely got a pre-order with a retailer and the facility in place to pay for it, I will give you a delivery date. If the retailer happens to deliver it earlier, you just have to promise not to open the package. Deal?

There's your fixed date. If you don't have it by my fixed date and have satisfied the conditions, I will pay you £500 (or the equivalent in your local currency)

Yes, given those circumstances, you will have received your N900 by 27th July 2011. I expect to see your excited unboxing video on that date. Enjoy!

I agree that that is the case for many people here, being used to a closed delivery cycle and wrongly believing that these closed cycles are actually open. It reminds me of all the FUD fuss that is made whenever there is a public argument between two prominent groups in the open-source world. Such a big thing is made of them by the closed supporting press that they are made out to be the end of the world and good reason for no-one to trust either group.
The reality is that the groups are arguing out the best technical solution for a problem and eventually form up behind whichever idea is proved best. Exactly the same thing happens in the proprietary world, except it is all done behind closed doors, no-one knows about it anda weaker solution can come of it as the participants in the discussion are far fewer.

I do not believe that at any time previously so many people were directly involved in the development of a mainstream phone. Instead of a hundred people behind NDAs, you have thousands of people participating and arguing what would be best. I would like to see Motorolla, Samsung, HTC or even Apple (!) come anywhere near the openness we have had with the development of the N900.

As f9or lack of feedback, places like bugzilla and the development mailing-lists are where you will find technical nitty-gritty rather than the high level almost consumer stuff you will get on here.


Of you would rather be treat like mushrooms, go to a closed system, there are plenty of them. This is very different from what anyone else is doing and if you are expecting the same as everyone else, you are in the wrong place.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Not really, as some of those people could have easily ha\d those phones days before those dates if the retailers were allowed to sell them.

Fixed release dates mean the customer loses out.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

About a new device, not yet launched, when the media are jumping on every single piece of information they can get about it? Releasing some information like "oh, yes, we've delayed it, and it will eat your babies" could be a PR disaster *for this device* if it got into the mainstream media, and it would - because of the associated buzz.

Once the hype has died down, sure, stuff like that will become much more mainstream, but if I was in a position of having access to information like that, I'd be quite tight lipped.

While being open is one thing, commercial realities still exist, and can't be forgotten. If they want to be open, they need to stay afloat first, and to keep afloat, they need to sell.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

And then go to the store and purchase the device.

If Nokia could have clearly stated "you can pick up the N900 from your local Nokia store on this date and from other online retailers at this date" I would have been perfectly fine, they could even have considered the shipment time to retailers which isn't hard to get now a days with tracking technology and GPS. Hell I could be wrong, someone in the shipping industry let me know.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Yes, Nokia is not the retailer and is separated from the retailer by several pints in the logistics chain. Without imposing artificial delays, they cannot state a date when all retailers will be ready to ship to customers.

Why are people moaning about delay when Nokia are actually doing more than any other manufacturer to minimise delay?

What is possible to state with reasonable accuracy between a single retailer and a single customer does not scale up between an initial supplier and millions of end customers.

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

You have absolutely no idea whether that's true.

You appear to be basing your ideas on what Nokia does rather than any real world knowledge of logistics. Companies plan these things out. They know when their deliveries will get there. The dates HTC and Motorola gave are reflective of what they planned - when they planned to manufacture, when they planned to ship, when they planned for stock to arrive etc. You have this idea that a fixed date is basically the latest date possible when it's simply the one that's planned out.

The think is Nokia's logistics work exactly the same way. They know when they're delivering they just haven't structured their business such that they communicate that information to consumers. That is the problem.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Er well actually you couldn't be more wrong. Unlike both Motorola and HTC Nokia has an actual retail operation running in many countries. Did they even manage to communicate reliable information through their own retail division? Nope.


You can repeat yourself all you like it doesn't make it true.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Yes I do. There is no way that a delivery originating from one point in the globe can reach thousands of retailers at the same time and that all of those retailers have identical turn-around times. I have a hard time seeing how anyone can think that this is a reasonable idea.

You either tell them all to deliver as soon as possible, in which case you get uncertain delivery time. Or you tell them to delay their deliveries until a certain date, thus having stock in retailers' warehouses that could easily be in the hands of users.

Tell me, what miracle of logistics or time-travel have you invented that gives a third option?

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Shipment dates are known reliably. I mean it's literally people's jobs to know things like "What the weather will be on our shipping route" for obvious reasons. Of course exception circumstances can delay things but we're not talking about that.

I am personally not that bothered but I am concerned about Nokia's ability to engage its customers and react to what they want. Sure when you're used to how Nokia does business then the N900 is no different to other releases but it's still extremely confusing and frustrating for the average consumer who just wants to know when the thing will be out.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Why don't you compare and contrast the release of the DROID vs the N900?

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

One of the reasons why they might do this BS is to try and clawback the market share they have been losing. So you announce the product before it's anywhere near ready to keep someone from going to the competitor and make him wait. I would have bought a DROID no doubt, but I've got to wait this out.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

It's fairly simple and obvious and no time travel is required.

Nokia knows very well when it plans to ship the N900 to India (for example). It doesn't have to figure out exactly when the product will make to every retailer in India but it does know when it will be generally available - that date is a function of when it plans to start shipping to that market and the normal length of supply chain to hit retail. They could easily say "Available in India from January 15th 2010" and then people can go ask their local retailer when they're getting it.

There's absolutely no need to hold back the date until every single sales outlet in the market has it. You just need a date for general availability.

Instead people in India have no clue at all when they're getting an N900. Neither does anyone in any other country albeit those in Western ones have an idea they're getting it soonish maybeish.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

More wrong? Oh you mean like 'Nokia UK Retail' - which is actually MPD. It still doesn't change the fact that stock will take a different amount of time to get from Korea to the US as it would to Japan.

OK then. You explain quite how a company can arrange an accurate global release date or dates without either spending a shed-load of time and money estimating and producing a massive release data booklet taking into account the particular logisitics realities of different countries and retailers or without imposing artificial delays on stock being released to the public.
If you can, I guarantee that you will make millions as a distribution chail manager for any global company.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Read the old N810 threads from this forum. Yes, it's the same every time :)

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Nevertheless it makes your "Nokia is not the retailer" point look silly when Nokia is much closer to being the retailer than the organisations you're comparing it against. Do you think the time to get things from Korea to the US is not known?


What do you think companies have logistics and operations departments for? They plan all this out. Do you honestly think Nokia throws their output onto the boat, sets it off over the horizon and then says "Well gee I hope they get somewhere soon so we can actually make money selling them"?

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

You are asking for exactly what has happened though - they have started shipping stock from their factory and the initial distribution points have a good idea of when they are going to receive stock. These will have been passed as estimates to the intermediary distribution points and the retailers will almost certainly have an estimated time when the can get hold of stock.All of these dates are different depending on where they are and who they are dealing with. Transport delays can and do happen so retailers are very aware that these are estimates. Some of them pass the estimates on to customers, others don't - that's up to them. There is nothing that Nokia or Peter can do to give you a guaranteed date from your retailer. Asking otherwise is to ask for delay in any delivery to a date incorporating all of the possible delays to all of the retailers in the cintinent.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Who is asking for a guaranteed date? We have no dates at all! People in the UK and US will probably be happy customers in the next couple of weeks (if they bought from Nokia that is, who knows about other retailers) but nobody else has a clue. It seems very likely Sweden will be delayed but people still have to go off rumours instead of Nokia just giving the information.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

It is known - to a margin of error. That margin is probably a couple of days.

They plan it out (within their margins of error) with the destinations they deal with. Let's say fifty distribution points throughout the current target areas for the N900. Each of those distribution points have a turn around time before they deal with the retailers. Each distribution point will deal with hundreds of retailers. Retailers with many shops will then have their own distribution points to ship stock to their stores then the stores ship to individual consumers.
Nokia can plan for that first stage anything outside of that is outside of their control. No other company expects to do tha, so why do you treat Nokia differently?

Do you honestly think Nokia throws their output onto the boat, sets it off over the horizon and then says "Well gee I hope they get somewhere soon so we can actually make money selling them"?[/QUOTE]

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

I don't see how having a fixed date the customer loses. Not having a date feels very unprofessional in my book. It's like not getting delivery date from UPS, FedEx, DHL or whomever you use for shipping.

Usually fixed release dates should allow retailers enough time to stock a decent amount of products in order for the first rush. Now I'm not saying this is perfect but at least gives enough time for a majority of retailers, unless their projections of popularity were way off. Also it gives consumers a chance to intelligently make a purchasing decision at the current date.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Major launches usually don't happen on a "deliver as soon as possible" method. Let's take for example the recent MS Windows 7 launch. Can you imagine the chaos that would have come about if instead of setting a launch date of Oct. 22 2009 Microsoft had just said "Windows 7 is launching sometime in October. You can pre-order it from Microsoft.com, Amazon.com, Newegg.com, Dell.com, etc. but whichever retailer receives the stock first will start shipping as soon as they get the product in."

I'm not trying to compare the scale of the N900 launch to the Win7 launch, but not having a "launch date" is pretty absurd in my book. I would rather they have a definite date, ship to all retailers so they have stock on hand (and sit on product until launch date if necessary) to release on a specific date. It's not an impossible feat. Game consoles (XBox 360, PS3, Wii), smartphones (iPhone, Pre) plus much much more are examples that have done on a far greater scale.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

How would you feel if you saw your local shop being delivered a big box marked 'Nokia N900' and them refusing to sell you one?
Many people would be complaining that their local shop has stock but won't sell.

No it's not. When you send something via DHL, you are sending it via a single delivery entity. You will also find that in many cases, they have disclaimers in their guaranteed delivery dates to account for things such as inspections or temporary seisures by customs.

I'm not saying that any system is perfect. you are describing an artificial delay. Any artificial barrier annoys me. If one shop manages to get stock turned around before the one I've ordered from then I'm fine with that as long as I'm happy that my retailer is doing their best to get me stuff ASAP.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

This one is, and it is one of the many differences between the N900 and any other phone. This is a game changer

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

How about if you ordered your N900 from Amazon UK but every other retailer ships two weeks earlier for no apparent reason? Or if you were planning a trip to the US and you don't know whether to get one there or wait for one in your own country?

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

You would want to buy one from your own country for warranty purpose.
I won't want to go to the US to get my N900, 1 year warranty only compare to 2 in EU.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

Nokia's lack of worldwide warranty is just another layer of frustration on top of everything else. If you do buy your phone in the US (or from the US via ebay) it has to be sent back there for repair - even if your country has a repair service for it.

The other manufacturers do international warranty.

Re: N900 shipping delayed
 

I live in the US and I did seriously think of ordering one from the UK for that reason.

His point is still fully valid :)