Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Oh well. 3G. I only know that I stopped using my 3G modem some 8 months ago, it was so extremely frustrating. I had maybe one day per 3 months without packet losses (as measured by ping). Packet losses completely kills services like Ajax, due to the TCP/IP stalling which is the consequence of packet losses. It would take forever to send a single mail from gmail, and sometimes I had to just give up after an hours frustration.

It worked OK in the very beginning, probably because I was one of the first ones in my area to even use 3G. Now, I just keep paying my monthly fee without using it (until the contract runs out).

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

A couple of details nobody is bringing up: a typical phone cannot consume the whole bandwidth of the tower, so you can have several phones maximizing their own bandwidth before you saturate the available bandwidth and start losing. And I'm not sure what's normal in terms of design standards, but it's quite possible to choke the backhaul before you run out of radio bandwidth, if more users are using data than expected.

No, it is the same; with some types of last-mile, that's not shared (though with cable, it is), but from your ISP's local node out, it is. And fiber costs money, too.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I used Google video chat over UMTS on my n810 tethered to my N75 very successfully from downtown Manhattan in the middle of the work day. I also used Skype and SIP (grandcentral) successfully. I think the existing infrastructure at least here in NYC could probably handle a small spike in 3G usage for VOIP. It definitely managed the spike after the iphone was introduced.
I, as many will, welcome our HSPA providing overlords into our tablet community.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Indeed, I don't know the exact bandwidth a 3G mast is able to deliver.

Then you don't get what you're paying for, and you can sue the 3G provider for that. If they advertise with 384 kbit upload, and you don't get 1/6 of that, its serious trouble. It is of no concern whether you're using VoIP or web browsing. They all cost quite some data.

The solution is simple: as demand increases you place more masts.

Thats true with any medium. A DSLAM has the very same issues.

No, it hurts their core business, and they don't wish to adapt. That is their fundamental problem with SIP. Else, they'd instead place more severe limits on data usage and max throughput. As you asserted, they don't do this; they put in contract its illegal to use VoIP.

Then you raise the price, and if your competitors don't, your customers go to your competitors. Last time I checked, the telcos were pretty damn profitable.

Yes, it is. Its called overbooking. A decent ISP states how high the overbooking is, and guarantees a minimum speed (usually far under the maximum speed though). Coincidentally, this is why business DSL is more expensive: the customer gets a guaranteed better overbooking (e.g. 1:10 instead of 1:25) at the DSLAM, and they get a SLA (although with my consumer line for every day my ADSL is down, I don't have to pay). With cable, its approx the same story, and some cable networks even have token ring. This is also why consumer grade (A)DSL is cheaper than T1/E1 because with those you have 1:1 overbooking.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Exactly, that is how medium sharing via spread spectrum degrades: "softly".


TA-t3: why don't you complain? The behaviour your are experiencing is not normal. Your provider cannot warranty "perfect service", but this is clearly unacceptable.

But for this you cannot sue: the contracts always say "up to 384 Kbits/s". Maybe you should read the legalize of typical data contracts: they offer you web access at speeds around DSL. Everything else is a gray zone. You can sue if you don't get any service (like TA-t3) or even clearly unacceptable quality (e.g. very slow). You can't if you don't get top service all the time, or if some applications either unusual or explicitly prohibited (voip) do not work. That is the basic reality in plain English.


I mean: it is quite interesting to discuss technicalities, but as far as the tablet is concerned, it all ends up the same: a tablet with voip over hsdpa is not a phone replacement. Either because the provider will block it (as they write in their contracts already) or because it will not work in practice when the cell gets busy (because lag increases to unacceptable levels).

Now we do not know how the cell part will be in the next tablet, but there are two choices:
-either it will be usable as a phone (not over data, but directly as a phone) and we basically have an iPhone competitor
-or it will be data only and we have an equivalent to current offers for the eeepc with an usb 3G modem bundle.

Neither one of these offers is very appealing to me at present, but there is certainly a market for them. But it is not a revolutionary concept as the first tablet was.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

to keep the leadership the time to market is key. Nokia was ahead of the market with n8x0 but the competition is moving fast.
To add HSDPA is a good idea to address the data mobile market, but time is critical. today many mobile operators are already ofering intenet mobile with offers like this http://www.sfr.fr/mobile/internet-3g-plus-portable.jspe where it is offered a EeePC with a 3G usb. As time passes by, this market will become more crowded and more difficult for n900.
many products like n900 will come to market in october/november and the novelty effect of n900 will be diluted...
Nokia should be fast...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Thank you for your valuable contributions in this thread, Jerome.

I welcome you to contribute to the ItT Data plans Wiki entry.

It saddens me you don't appear to agree telcos don't like VoIP because it hurts their core business, but OK. I still believe its important how much data is used for which purpose, and I do see that the upload might be an issue here.

Frankly, I do find 24/7 Internet connectivity revolutionary on such a small device although competitors are also providing this or about to provide. The NIT will be 'revolutionary' because Nokia innovates on many levels; also on software level.

As said in the article the cell is probably data only.

There are data plans which don't forbid VoIP (usually the 'laptop' data plans). Maybe not in Germany though.

Just like there are data plans which don't have a FUP and won't close you after you burned X GB. Again, perhaps not in Germany.

Its unwise to not read your contract before you sign it, and there might be contracts which do guarantee certain speeds instead of best effort (again, perhaps not in Germany). If you'd be interested in such I'd suggest to look at contracts aimed at businesses where you pay'd and get service similar to if you'd buy a business DSL contract. Whether these are worth it? Good question.

There are also ways to work around a SIP ban (from contract, or technically limited by blocking it or by lowering its priority using QoS). For example, one can use SSL, SSH, RDP, and other protocols to work around this. WiMAX is nice in this sense because it allow one to prioritze traffic based on protocols and it supports prioritizing SIP but a business also active as normal telco might actually give it lower priority...

If SIP wouldn't work well on N900 I'd just buy a Openmoko phone besides my N900, and would still at least try to use the N900 for international calls.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Oh, I certainly agree that telcos don't like VoIP because it hurts their core business, that's just plain obvious. I just wanted to explain that there are other, less obvious reasons.

I contributed to your ItT Data plans Wiki entry, but, frankly, there are about 50 different data plans available in Germany and they change almost every month. There are 4 networks and further resellers, you can different plans depending wether they are tied to a single device or not, tied to the operator portal, usable only around your home, all over Germany or include usage in foreign countries. There are plans by byte, by minute, with and without monthly charge, with and (rarely) without minimal duration... If I put them all (which I am not going to do, understandably), the wiki will more than double...

24/7 Internet connectivity a small device has been offered here for at least 3 years, but it depends what you call "Internet connectivity". Devices similar to the sidekick allow web browsing, but through a proxy, so that data usage is kept relatively low. Heck, even on the laptop plans you usually have a transparent proxy which will recompress pictures (you can request the original by clicking on the picture).

BTW: even Symbian phones allow 24/7 Internet connectivity. My E51 is configured to check my e-mail regularly, and allows sip as well. It has a quite usable browser. I use it to listen to Internet radio stations, etc... Internet connectivity was not the "revolutionary" part of the 770, the fact that it ran linux and thus was an open device was.

"Its unwise to not read your contract before you sign it"

Oh..., yes. :rolleyes: Certainly. And have it reread by an army of lawyers if you can...

"There are also ways to work around a SIP ban"

There are ways to work around any ban on the Internet. I sure know... (In practice just trying non standard ports is usually sufficient.)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

On the subject of US data plans, Verizon adds month-to-month: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080922/ny34211.html?.v=1

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

It's a shame that the BT on the Verizon branded devices don't work with the n8xx. My biggest disappointment at the moment.

and yes I am using the latest official OS version for my BB8830 (4.2.2.176).

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

wow, so much for standards... :rolleyes:

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

hmm, verizon. isnt that the operator that keeps crippling phones they allow onto their network, when it comes to other connectivity options?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Allegedly they opened up their network last year. No further comment. :D

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

its when i read about stuff like that im truly glad i live where i live, even tho it at times seems overly restrictive and controlled...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

They announced last year; we have to wait to officially cry foul. Even so, it is now widely suspected that the unregistered UEs will not get the same rates as the registered UEs. The point is, the highly persuasive usability arguments in favor of a NIT plus separate cell phone must yield to the commercial realities in the US. :(

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Take heart-- with the recent US government takeover of banking, along with restrictions due to terrorism, we're getting the worst of all worlds...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Now you only need a lovely inflation ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

The OSiMworld conference made it clear to me that NOBODY but Nokia is getting it yet; worse, nobody else seems to be preparing for it. Lots of hot air about OpenSource, but it seems mostly ... hot air. I have other, more earthy, phrases for what seemed to be going on most of the time, with most of the other vendors, at OSiMworld, involving some form of group onanism, but I'll avoid them.

Unless something fundamental changes in the next 6 months in the mobile industry, Nokia is gonna blindside this industry with the N900. They won't know what hit 'em. There will be panic in the boardrooms, slashed prices on data plans, everyone competing to see who can give you the lowest price for TCP/IP on their network. The mobile carriers will be reduced, in one fell swoop, to mere ISPs.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

everyone, telco's, cable companies, anything that runs a wire or two way radio signal into a building or area, is a isp these days.

that american cable companies are trying to "cable tv" the net with their lobbying for a right to request payment from google and similar is just a sign that they see it coming, and is trying, just like the *AA's, to stop it from happening.

the net is the modern telegraph, and its forcing changes on all layers of society, from how me "consume" infotainment, to how we interact with each other.

im damned tempted to pack a bag, and see if i can survive as a digital nomad these days...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

"Now you only need a lovely inflation"

In the US, it was clear that inflation was returning even before any of these recent problems.

Another interesting thing going on here is rising productivity accompanied by lower income.

Let's see, what thread are we in? Oh, right, I hope Maemo 5 takes care of this.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

There were definite hints (just short of all-out statements) in the Nokia presentations that the next screen will be multitouch and haptic. But, they were hints, and as such, I'm taking them as "we want this as much as you, but there may be technical difficulties so we're not promising anything..."

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Looks like there will be multi-touch, that sounded kinda certain...

EDIT: (Or at least there will be multi-touch support in Maemo 5 :))

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Well, most of the mobile carriers still don't think so. Even after the iPhone. And that is only to their harm.

I think the iPhone didn't cause panic in the industry because Apple was very very careful not to position their device as an Internet device; they've made it very difficult to put any app on the phone, and I think it is as much because they don't want to rock the mobile industry that much quite yet. I strongly suspect that Apple actually does get it, and they want to build their market share to serious levels first, and then, (along with Nokia) destroy the industry completely.

Wait a few months. Spring 2009 should be a very interesting time. I'll probably be joining you as a digital hobo. :D

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

So did haptic, actually. Just as certain as multi-touch.

EDIT: I should clarify; the slide with the multi-touch picture had a haptic picture too (a finger with ripples moving out from it), and the word "haptic" was mentioned at least as often as multi-touch... maybe twice or three times.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

or it could be that apple see the iphone as something that they wish they could turn the low end mac's into, a kind of apple services terminal.

the way i see it, apple is going head to head with google.

and with making sure that the iphone cant randomly connect to some third party services without going thru apples own systems (see their lock down on im and similar) they are attempting to make damn sure that some third party cant piggyback on their success...

hell, just watch their recent shooting down of a on the go podcast downloading app.

mobileme and itms is where apple is pinning their future, not macbook pro and mac pro. after the shift to x86, those are just another gray box with a fancy os.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

hmm, i just have to ask. are you familiar with a chinese curse that go something like this?

"may you live in interesting times"

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

(It isn't my entry :))

Yes, I see this becomes quite complex, although you could start a specific entry called $NAME/Germany. Also, the most interesting entries are IMO the verified ones ie. the ones the contributor actually uses or used.

Probably longer given GPRS.

Its a combination of factors, perhaps also a whole new platform (Maemo, Hildon) and the fact Nokia dabbled into this market. The Sharp Zaurus also provided internet connectivity, and ran Linux. One of my beefs with the Zaurus was that the WWW browsing was severely cluttered, so usability might also be an argument for 770.

Oh, don't be sarcastic. Many people don't even read them. They just sign a contract without knowing what they sign. I once had a bank trying to pull me into this trick, and I told them to go **** themselves. And, to give another example: whenever I got hired, I first read the contract.

If you're a business going to use several of [these] contracts it might be wise if not more important to indeed have a lawyer read the contract.

Its a cat and mouse game which, if telcos want to win, means many people will lose. Ie. ban of cryptographic protocols, or only allow specific protocols.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I'm familiar with it, and I just shrug when I hear it uttered as a curse. Only those unwilling to change and adapt find "interesting" to be scary. The only time "interesting" becomes scary is if it threatens my life or the lives of my family. Otherwise, the roller-coaster of "interesting times" is the best part of life.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I think this notion made sense in a far away time and place where the state of things (be it war or peace) and the social model stayed the same for expanses of time that would be unbelievable to us - 'cause we were *born* cursed :-)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

My understanding is that the current technology for multitouch disallows use of stylus (or anything other than actual fingers), due to relying on capacitive digitizers. If so, that would leave out a lot of uses (including hand writing recognition I should think). If the next-gen device is going to have multitouch I hope the technology has moved pass that limitation for sure.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

i think dell has a tablet pc out now that has a multi-mode digitizer thats multi-touch when the stylus is not in use...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Hrmm...not sure if that's the case- the Dell Latitude XT uses a capacitative touch screen from N-Trig and allows for stylus and touch (including multi-touch). If you're referring to simultaneous stylus and touch, then yes, I do believe you are correct.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

BTW: whats the big deal with multi-touch? I have never seen one single use case for it (no, zooming images doesn't count, that's sooo 2007). Except for being cool, what could be done with a multitouch interface that I can't do now? (Given also that I use one hand to hold the device...)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I am inclined to agree with you - on such small devices as the ITs, I can't think of when multi-touch would be absolutely necessary. On the other hand, it would be nice to have the ability to do this. One argument for multi-touch would be that the majority of the best multi-touch applications have yet to be written and are simply waiting for hardware! ;)

I think however, that multi-touch can become a very useful input method on larger devices (e.g. desktop size or larger).

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Yeah, there was some discussion about this at the Summit, the problem is that there didn't seem to be any hardware guys there to answer our questions, and the Nokia software guys just shrugged, you know, not-our-problem shrugs. I was expecting Igor to show up (I thought he said he would) but ... nothing.

My feeling is that when mobile providers, currently still thinking of themselves as mobile phone providers (oh woe to you, you fools) are reduced to ISPs, they will be caught in the same situation that current ISPs are caught in; if you try to restrict protocols or bandwidth, people just go to somewhere else that provides better service.

The mobile ISPs won't be able sell these stupid voice / text / data bundles anymore, because they won't be the only provider of the voice / text services anymore. Anyone will be able to download Skype or some generic SIP client for voice, and Pidgin or some other IM client for text.

What will they be left with?

Well, they can still provide the pipes, and compete in that arena. Woe, woe to them, because that arena is bloody and dangerous, and few emerge unscathed. The shakedown will leave the market a different place.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Isn't that using some special-made type of stylus? It would work, but be a bit limiting (right now I use the Palm stylus if the Nokia one isn't in front of me, and sometimes a nail. I actually never uses fingers, as I hate fingerprints on the display.)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Even more so as the tablet is more than just an overpriced single-usecase-gadget (such as a PMP). It's more like a very small laptop... so leaving all those use cases out that need a stylus cripples the device to - well, to something that's already there and much cheaper.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I'm not quite sure about this...I know on old pen-input touchscreens, special styluses were needed for the screen to register the input...but if it registers touch? Dunno.

What type of touchscreen is on the ITs currently?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I've used an iPhone and was not excited about multi-touch although I did like the ability to click on a paragraph and then zooming in on it. Very useful for the eyes and focus. It meant zero distraction (and I'm easily distracted...).

I've seen some awesome demos about touch screens for other purposes though. One where touchscreen was used to control a software synth. Another one where multi touch was used for FPS game (welcome to the war room!) :o ..but neither of these are appropriate for an internet tablet's small LCD screen.

That is so the goal I wish for. :)

However Jerome made a good point about potential tarpits. And, if providers follow each other's restrictions...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Yeah, not exactly sure what that was about. She had no info about jobs or application processes. She just said we should go to the website and apply for jobs there. Not very useful or helpful.