Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Flop magic

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

A Nokia with WP7, it's gonna be 9/11 all over again :(

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

No really, here in Europe NOKIA has been connected for years with good hardware, the best cameras (even when SE cameras where better NOKIA ones stood out because of better LCD's), feature-packed phones. It is very common for a guy to be treated as a victim fallen for the iphone marketing magic and having him to apologize and resorting to you know stockholm-syndrom-ish remarks. That is not the case in the states. It is really difficcult if not impossible to differentiate a NOKIA phone with a mainstream OS, being it android or WP. It would need something wow. And hardware wise it doesn't seem they have it right now.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

At least the email will work well on WP7. All my pre-ELOP nokia flops had problems with work email.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

N9 did manage to turn over their reputation.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

It works for me, and obviously billions of other Symbian users. i have no idea what you keep babbling about, on and on and on and on...............

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

You got it wrong bud. Sea Ray, not N9

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Yes but because it's NEITHER android NOR wp
And because of the sexy anna icons.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Troll harder.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

The feedback was positive even from the largest of Nokia critics. That's what Nokia needed to get in the US and they obviously succeeded. All seem to see N9's success, except Elop and BigBadBugger.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

A little dose of reality from Europe:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13863741

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

You didn't get the article. They say it will be a tough sell due to Nokia's management. Nokia obviously lowered their resources and their support in Meego as a primary OS. If Elop and February 11 never happened, the article would shine a different light.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

to see how uninformed your source is it is claiming microsoft racks up sales. Even symbian in the us is racking up sales but definitely not WP7

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I get the article. I actually do plan to buy N9. The point is that Meego is an experiment that will feed the MS-NOKIA alliance with some innovation, just as N9 uses symbian icons as well as some of the swype features of WP7. By itself is not an ecosystem worth supporting as there is no money in it. NOKIA can not afford multiple large ecosystems.

I actually dont think that you are getting it. That is why you are not NOKIA CEO, but a dead wood troll.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I am not CEO since that position is idiot proof and surely does need a muppet.

Repeating this for the zillionth time. All the things Nokia invested in, make up one ecosystem, not 2, 3 or even more. The ecosystem is:

MeeGo + Symbian + S40 + Qt + Ovi services = 1 (ONE) ecosystem

N9 is not using Symbian icons, it's using Nokia proprietary icons. Their ecosystem involves similar UX across the board. So those icons will be available for MeeGo, Symbian and S40. With WP7, Nokia broke this ecosystem. They had it all on paper, just needed good management to get it through the door. Elop and MS used a perfect opportunity to f*ck it all up, not just for Nokia, but for us, the consumers. WP7 sales were getting lower and lower. Their plan was and still is, "if we are going down, we'll drag Nokia with us for the sole reason we know their comeback is gonna be bada**."

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I don't think we should continue to bump this thread into active topics. I can imagine Elop going to one of NOKIA webmasters and asking him,
--how many websites do we have, why are the costs so high?
--MM let's see, nokia.com, brandbook, swipe, nokia europe, local sites, developer.nokia.com, maemo.org
-- maemo? you meen meego
-- no, maemo
-- what is maemo
-- you know, N900
-- let me see...
(giant screenshot of the title of this thread pops up on the 24in monitor)
-- how much do we pay for this?
-- XXX€
-- take it offline please, effective tomorrow
(silence...)
-- oh and put a giant windows logo instead of a 404

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Great job at stamping this idea in Elop's beach ball head :p

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

That's high priced, not necessarily a high end item.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

WP has exactly the features of the first iphone plus (poorly executed) copy paste, it is fast and overly simple. One iphone is enough, because it offers an image with its restriction and simplicity which wp cannot match. Android conquered the world with it's home screen. It's personalizable enough to make people love their devices. Heavy users and geeks may be less in numbers but they are highly influential in the decisions of others. I have pretty much decided for at least 11 phone purchases in the last year. So idiot proof is not the only way to go, it may be turn around and be insulting to your user (UAC anyone?).
High end doesn't mean only thousands of MHz and dosens of cores, it means capability. And now all capability of WP is limited to playing silverlight snippets, one at a time.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I think (hope) it should have been sarcastic, but the tragedy is that most of people (especially at the mysterious "backwater place") are believing this is the truth.
No one today seems to remember the real story.

In June 2007, when the first iPod with phone features was released at the "backwater place", rest of the globe including myself was using one of the best selling smartphones of all times, the Nokia N95.
It was the first Nokia device with GPS, bringing online (including A-GPS) AND offline navigation in more than 100 countries worldwide. It had quadband for worldwide use. It had USB (including Drag&Drop), Infrared and Bluetooth to easily exchange files with your PC, and also to use it as a modem for your Laptop, long time before "Tethering" was something to worry about in contracts. It had a microSD-Slot with SDHC working. It had Wlan with UPnP-Support. It had an Audio-Video-Chinch-Connector to easily use any sort of headphone you prefer and also to connect to your TV for Audio/Video output. It had a 5MP Camera wich made photos way better than these of the N900. It had a second Camera on the front with native support for Videocalling over GSM.

At this time in year 2007, Nokia had created different services to enhance the User-Experience, today known as "Ecosystems":
Things like the Nokia Music Store (formerly known as Loudeye - a White-Label-Service for MTV, MSN, MyCokeMusic, ... today known as Ovi-Music) brought more than 1,6 million Songs (more than 11 million songs in 2010 wich means it's larger than iTunes) to Nokia devices all over the world. At this time the N95 was capable of downloading little Programs to your device (today known as "Apps") to improve the capabilities of the phone, e.g. Skype (with Fring) for VOIP-Calls, Games etc. At this time the Nokia-PC-Suite was the Center of all your device-related tools - downloading and syncing maps, syncing and editing contacts, syncing files, downloading and installing programs, backup and restore.... With one of the following software-updates you even did't need the PC anymore but could download Apps and Music directly to your device....

Nokia has it all. Ovi-Music with more than 11 million songs, Ovi-Maps with free offline navigation worldwide, Ovi-Mail to centralise all of your different Mailaccounts, Ovi-Suite to Sync everything with your PC, Ovi-Store with more than 40k Apps today - everything I'd call an "Ecosystem".

But Nokia failed. They not only failed, it was more like an epic fail.
Why ?
In my opinion (and I don't dare this is the only truth) because thy became fat, arrogant and made stupid decisions.

Fat, beause of the success.
To much ideas, no concept. New services, renamed services, no stategy wich service available for wich phone in wich country. Services not improved, like Ovi-Suite wich lacked for support for too many phones for too much time (look at the N900) and became more and more resource-hungry. Or like Ovi-Store, wich is a torture to use since day one.

Arrogant because of the success.
It's not a good idea to sell 20-30 different devices at one time, each one like the other, except of design and a few features - people get confused. It's not a good idea to reload the same (in the meantime old) hardware of the formerly megaseller (N95) with crappy build-quality and to try to make people believe this would be the next revolution (N96, N97, N97 mini). It's not a good idea to ignore the feedback of your customers ("Touchscreen ? - There's no need for this", "Multitask ? - You don't need this with Symbian", "Hardware-Specs ? - Hardware is irrelevant, because Symbian is so smooth"). It's not a good idea to fuc* your customers if they need support. Nokia has been premium in terms of build-quality for years. But with quality going down was also support going down ("This phone has become wet", "You were smashing your device on the floor", "Did you use this device ?"....). No service, no new Nokia for me.
It's not a good idea to provide new flagship devices (like "the mobile computer" the N900 in my coutry) and fuc* your customers with the lack of support ("Software-Update ? One, maybe two", "Navigation ? Just buy one of our many Dumbphones", "Full Hardware-Support for Frontcam, FM-Transmitter, IR... ? Go to Hell or just ask at TMO")

Stupid decisions because they (finaly) recognized the sinking ship.
Why the hell does Nokia believe that the "backwater place" would be the universal solution ? Nokia was the leader in Europe, Africa, Asia, but has been ignored in America. It's because Network-Providers in America think different. In no way european customers would accept the behavior of american providers. But without the providers you're lost. No one is willing to pay 500-700 $/€ for a handset every 24 months. So what ? Why not forget the whole story an concentrate on the markets you've conquered with success ? Nokia doesn't need this "backwater place" and in no way Nokia will ever be successfull in this market.
But Nokia is acting like a bit** who wants to impress you - "Let's try a new software from this "backwater place", let's try a new leader from this "backwater place", let's forget everything we have learned (or not learned) in the markets we were the leader, this backwater-place-thing will bring the success."
In trying to be successfull in America, Nokia is loosing the rest of the world. And Elop is one big part of this fail, because he represents what most Europeans (and most other people in the rest of the world) don't like within the american mentality: he's a big-mouth, he doesn't know when it's time to just shut the fuc* up.
What an idiot he must be, to tell the whole world, that his moneycow (Symbian) is dead.
What an idiot he must be, to tell the whole world, that there will be only one premium OS, WP7 within Nokia. Not only that Nokia never needed another "third-party" OS like iOS, WM or Android to be successful, customers still don't know when there will finally be a new Nokia flagship-device (2012 ?) after the obligatory Nokia-delays of several months.
What an idiot he must be, to tell the whole world, that the world's (in near future ex-) biggest phone-manufacturer with the most spread OS in the world and thousands of employees is absolutely incompetent to bring the long time experiment (step 1, 2, 3, 4 out of five) to a stunning final, resulting in an ultimate user-experience - no, he declares Maemo/Meego as also dead for Nokia.

I'm sorry to say, but Nokia in my opinion deserves what it gets at the moment, because they didn't listen to their customers (where the money comes from), didn't learn from their mistakes, were unable to copy good concepts from others, and finally hired a big-mouth which (maybe) will have a long-time-plan, but is unable to keep the moneycow in good mood before switching to an all new platform which will have to proof itself first.

CU - M_99

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

they didn't even copy the hardware of the megaseller. The downgraded the cpu and removed the GFX. Also dropped the build quality. And they screwed the users of the N95 by not providing the new FP via update, so they were left with no choice but to jump ship.
They even intentionally crippled the capability of the community to backport features (eg KastorUI)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

HAHAHAHA!

Searay?

HAHAHAHA!

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I'm still waiting on my answers to my questions... you know who you are.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Back to topic. Read through Ahonens blog one more time. Ahonen was once a source for reasoned and balanced comments, funny and to the point. But this last one is just sad, he has lost it. He is like a scared disillusioned 14 year old with a hatred he cannot control. Scared because his beloved Nokia is in danger. Disillusioned because he thought Elop actually would continue on the same path as OPK, only at a different paste, with improved execution.

The error at Nokia has never been lack of execution, that's a myth. The error has been a mismatch between strategy and resources to fulfill the strategy. For instance Symbian. Symbian should be renewed and everything should be OK. This is a good strategy, and only requires the proper execution - wrong. Symbian is too far gone, development is too costly now, it takes too long and Nokia didn't have the right stuff to do it. Clearly the strategy continuing with Symbian is wrong, there is no lack of execution. An impossible task doesn't suddenly become possible by saying it is possible over and over. But Symbian was part of the heart and soul at Nokia, and he just couldn't get the message out unless he yelled it out as loud and ugly as he possibly could. Symbian will hump along for some years, Harmattan will fill the gap somehow until WP8 and some adjustments here and there, but then it is stop for Symbian. That is the only sound strategy, because that is the only strategy they are capable of executing. Harmattan may continue, I believe it will as long as it is kept within a small team and the devices makes enough money to pay for that team.

So, it is just sad that Ahonen has chosen to go "Eldar" instead of understanding what is going on. He is just making unnecessary difficulties for Nokia, and making himself irrelevant in the process.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Well said, the N95 really was epic, still way to fiddly for most people, only geeks could really take advantage of it. Symbian should have been fixed years ago, or they should have had a clear strategy to replace symbian with Maemo. To keep two advanced smartphone OSes was way too much. In a way I feel sorry for Elop, he has to clean up the mess and build a new future for Nokia. If he succeed he surely will be epic, and I think he will.

But I disagree with the backwater country. The US is largely irrelevant, and WP will be a much greater success in Europe. It will also become popular in the US, but it will take some time by the looks of it. Europeans are much more fashion oriented than americans, and the iPhone is old news and Android is increasingly only a toy for kids. WP will be new and fresh, just as the N9.

I am optimistic, I have to be, because no one else is making cool phones worth having. So come on Elop, keep up the work, you can do it :D

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

@kids: if you can't make your points without resorting to personal attacks and underhanded slams (*cough*), do take it OUTSIDE.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Thanks PAPA

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

PAPA, will you be getting iPhone 5?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I saw you in anither thread, so i guess you are asking me. I have no idea what the questions was, so I answer: yes, butterly and north.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

That was from the second time I had asked. What good is an ecosystem when it's not available there? Seriously. Solve that riddle.

And it's not like the Zune Marketplace is brand new. It's been around for quite some time, never left (to me) the domestic market.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I think both times it was asked it was regarding WP7 locale and regional zune ecosystem access issues, for starters (if I could paraphrase).

"North" is probably a fitting answer for that.

edit: I see gerbick has it well in hand. :)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Is localizing a website and app so difficult? I bet they can do it by tomorrow morning.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

The short answer: Irrelevant

The long answer: Who cares? or - who cares in the short range, and why is this relevant? WP will only gradually be introduced. In Europe only UK, France, Germany, Spain and Holland will see the Sea Ray. The rest will have the N9, and the N9 will use Ovi. It will take another 6-12 months before WP is available throughout Europe on Nokia. To my knowledge Zune marketplace already exist in all those locations, for instance:
http://www.zune.net/de-DE/products/w...e7/default.htm

Besides, the xbox is available anywhere.

But I am not familiar with Zune at all, so maybe you could explain in more detail what the exact problem is. It's not like it takes years to set up online services over here :)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

• I could put that the other way around, but we'll never know know. All we do know is thet even before Elop Nokia & Symbian were in trouble and under attach from critics - just like they are now, in fact...

"Certainly you can see it in the stock price: most think Symbian is dead and that there is little to look forward to with Nokia."

• If most thought Symbian was dead it would not be selling as well as it still is, so I do not agree. Just look at how many millions of devices Nokia are still selling; most buyers are ignorant of the political wranglings and just see more devices coming from Nokia. Most of them will be ignorant of the platform or OS used.
  
  I am not denying that Symbian's market share and stock is falling, but that does not matter to the average individual who goes into the store to buy their next phone. Nokia has a huge following with a corresponding brand loyalty; do not confuse that with the platform or OS.
  
  Symbian sales will fall further, I have no doubt. But Symbian is so big Nokia can carry that loss for quite some time. New developments like Anna and Belle will add appeal whilst Nokia build interest in their WP devices. We know there will be new Symbian devices until about 2014 and support will continue until 2016 at least.
  
  By that time Windows Phone will be fully established, fully featured and fully supported in the markets.

"Fact is Elop royally ****ed up in that he made such an announcement without having another product to fill the gap. A few months later and we still don't really know when Nokia will release their first Windows Phone. Meanwhile, the N9 is coming out and Elop has done a lot to undercut that. Who the hell thinks that's a smart way to run a business?"

• Only time will tell. A plan needs time to play out and it's early days yet. We can't call this a good or bad plan until Nokia have had at least a year selling WP devices. To write off any plan this early is an emotional response that is not tempered with reason.

"Which, again, benefits Microsoft more than it does Nokia".

• Nokia were the weaker party, Microsoft the stronger; That's buisiness. Nokia do get value out of the relationship; the ratio does not matter unless you're looking at this from an emotional perspective. Like I said, this is business.

"Given the new direction, they might as well be unrecoverable for the purposes of this forum. We were drawn to the power of Maemo and the promise of its potential. Elop seems to be doing everything possible to kill that dream, with nothing to replace it. It certainly won't be Windows Phone."

• I think Elop might be our best hope in the long run. The fact that the N9 will make it to market and the fact that the N950 is a developer phone suggests to me that despite Elop's understandable focus on WP, devices like the N9 have a future at Nokia.
  
  Right now he has to keep pushing the WP message. Every new product, every new technology and feature from Nokia must carry the WP message in some way, but read between the lines:
  
  I do not believe Nokia will discard the N9 approach. They may not develop Meego further - that is something else, but I can see value and potential for a more Maemo-like platform (i.e. an entirely Nokia, but still open-source OS) with maybe one or two devices a year to showcase disruptive technologies and developments.

"Speaking as a Nokia stockholder, I'm also disappointed in that aspect, because I'm wondering when Nokia is going to come out with a product that they are going to be fully behind. Certainly not for the rest of this year."

• Earlier you were criticising Elop for focussing entirely on WP and now you're saying he is not fully behind anything at the same time? You can't have it both ways!

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Glad to see the thread has entered a more constructive path. The only thing we know for a fact is that the focus is on WP, and that's it really. Well, we know one more thing. The N9 will be the flagship device in Europe in those countries not part of the first batch of WP (Scandinavia, Swiss, Austria, Belgium etc), but WP will enter the really big markets, UK, Germany, France and Spain.

In 1-2 years when WP has got a foothold, everything else except S40/S30 will become increasingly irrelevant, but they will also become increasingly non threatening as a distraction from WP. Nokia is perfectly capable of having several balls in the air at the same time, so who knows what will eventually happen to Symbian and Harmattan. Symbian is firmly off Nokias shoulders, 100% at accenture and Harmattan has an UI that is so simple and ingenious that it could stay like that forever, a multitasking task switcher in its purest form. The UI equivalence of the xterm. I think we will see more of this - eventually.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

That's not the problem. Distribution of content, music, videos have to be worked out in each area first. Sorta like how Spotify is just now coming to the US after being huge overseas.

Or how some videos on YouTube are limited only to the UK, but not available in the US.

Without those deals in place, and it's never instant... that poses to be a problem for the content portion(s) or they will have to release a crippled Zune connectivity software - like they have for the Mac - which only checks for updates and syncs already purchased apps and contacts... but doesn't have the full promised ecosystem promised.

I don't doubt that localization couldn't be done quickly. It's the content of the ecosystem that's going to not be delivered.

But... this is pure speculation... that could be why the WP7 phones are coming later in the year. They're working out the deals now on content in the areas.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

you seem to have a hard time keeping things apart.
m$ may be dominant in the PC market.
in the mobile phone market... >/nul
granted, you are not the only one making this mistake

in the mobile phone market, even though NOKIA's position is weakened, they are still dwarfing m$ by a long shot.

why push the wp message if there is such a brand loyality & customers don't care what OS it is running, as long as there is NOKIA standing on it?

you are contradicting yourself in a single post
try keeping them shorter, maybe?

just because they changed the name from mobile to portable doesn't make it a new product; it is still the same old buggy software that hasn't been able to gain any significant market share in over 10 years. during those 10 years, NOKIA single handedly created the smart phone & had a de facto monopoly 'til the competition got around to it too. but not m$, nope.
and it is not by lack of companies having tried, neither;
two years before NOKIA made this mistake LG entered an "exclusive" agreement w/ m$ according to which LG is still supposed to have 50 (fifty) wm (then) devices in its assortment by 2012;
a couple months ago, LG jumped onto the MeeGo bandwagon. and m$ may deem itself lucky if LG has even only 5 wp devices next year.


bottom line being that the m$ is the winner & NOKIA is losing any chance to survive once wp has confirmed yet again it has no market appeal.
well, considering the "loyality"as you say, respectively, the situation of most dumb phone markets world wide, they may still recover making & selling S40 devices where infrastructure for "smart phones" (3/4G mostly) is simply not available.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

The question is if WP will get a foothold. Until now its essentially irrelevant. Some say its the lack of features and nice hardware. I don't see how the hardware is inferior to those of android devices. The omnia 7 looks nice IMO. The windows brand does not seem to sell phones worldwide, nokia essentially poisons its own valuable brand with windows. Elop does not seem to understand that people have a far more intimate relationship to their mobile phones that to PCs.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

for many years now I haven't seen any user being proud of using windows on their pc, They are either forced to do it, don't know there is an alternative, not willing to try something else, or plain indifferent. Why transfer that indifference to the phone industry where everybody wants to be proud about their choice of smartphone is still beyond my understanding. If I was microsoft I would leverage a different brand, more fun and less connected with work, viruses and BSoD's for portable devices. Also they are confusing people with all these unrelated service brands: zune, xbox, bing, windows marketplace. Zune is irrelevant, if not completely unknown in europe, and connected with a spectacular failure in the USA. bing is weak in europe too, and with weak performance too in producing relevant local results. Only the metro ui appeals to me on this platform marketing-wise, and it's not the easiest ui to swallow. I doubt this marketing spaghetti can turn around this ship, and nokia adds with more confusion, ovi store, nokia maps... brand hell. If i was mikrokia (meaning the joint venture) I would make a new brand and push it down users throats as the new big fancy thing.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Just got my nokia E6.....and I am very unhappy. I tried to connect with the same settings I have on my iPhone to my work email. I get an error. Can't connect. What a piss off. That is Symboan in a nutshell and why Americans will not use it. Too many unforced errors as they say in tennis.