Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I don't get this, what am I looking at in that link? Is there some data about profits?

You can lose market share but increase profits very easily if the market itself is increasing (which it is). If anything the projections in your link show that sticking with Symbian would have been fine since the market share plateaus with an advantage.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Yes, everybody with 100% market share can only lose market share, and they will except if they are Microsoft (clinging on to market share with illegal means). Even IE once had 96% market share, does it make it a failure having 40% today? No. It's just like every market where there are two or three big players sharing the pie. I don't say that symbian was the ultimate OS, but you don't ditch #1 for #NaN. And if you finally decide to do it anyway, help the damn transition.

Nokia has many times broken compatibility with old systems successfully. The N9(1-5) were a raging success even if they didn't play the old S60v2 applications. They could easily, if Symbian was really the problem move to meego, as the same toolset (Qt) enables transition to meego. Or even WP, but with a transition path, not "go sell all your software and hardware and come back next year"

And even if Meego "was not ready" we have proof that they moved faster than the WP train which took a year to deploy Mango, with not-so-awesome updates, and they 'll need another year to support NFC and MicroSD things that M*E*O already supports.

Anyway that is out of the current stream of discussion. We are discussing about the WP7 failure today and not the decision to go WP7 last year. And todays' condition is attributed to a million reasons, one being WP7 itself as a system (nobody seems to want one) and many others like bad execution, stupid campaigns, removal of Symbian phones from the shelves (not new models, old ones that cost nothing to be there as an option for the guy that's say... stuck to the past), no HWKB devices (a traditional Nokia strength) etc etc. It is also attributed to the market share Nokia already lost, that will never return due to platform lock on. Had they kept quiet, and ditched Symbian this february, with 3 Lumias ready to ship, they would have much more customers going to the store just asking for the new Nokia.

And finally, why ditch it at all? Make two Lumia Flagships, market the hell out of them, if they sell well, fade Symbian to oblivion, nobody will mourn. When they said the N8 will be the last Symbian N-Series the market didn't crash. When they said symbian is crap, then it did. And if not all goes well and you see people are not loving your new babies, repaint your N8, give it a new processor and a bit of more ram, buy some time until you have something people will love to buy.

EDIT: Bleeding money?? When did that happen?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

No matter what you say, one thing is for certain, WP will fail worse than Symbian. Lots of people are aware of this fact and don't buy WP devices. Check out how much nicer Belle looks on the N9 design:

http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/a...-801-Belle.jpg

Much nicer, huh?

That's what I call an ecosystem. Buttonless, similar UIs, UX and services on all phones. However, functionality and OS differ on price. Ovi store and Qt applications are running on the whole lineup.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I think you all are arguing from different angles sorta the same thing. Let's put it this way... if your market share drops considerably, then your margins need to jump considerably - I haven't seen any proof of that yet.

If you switch to something that's not selling well, your profits will invariably decline as well as your valuation - case in point, Nokia's stock is less now than it was a year ago... under $5.00, I bought in at low $8.00, sold at $8.40, got out before this drop.

The point though, charts will prove most anything - but the above is a fact. Nokia isn't selling as much, they've dropped in valuation, they're supporting a lesser selling WP7 platform and they've yet to hit their stride in anything in their portfolios - heck, by most accounts, N9's are selling more than Lumia 800's.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

That surely depends on the growth of the overall market. If unit sales are still increasing, then margins do not need to grow in order to maintain/increase level of profits.

I don't know if this applies in the case of Nokia. I'm not a shareholder and do not care about their financial position. Even less so now that they no longer produce devices that I would buy.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

The main question that comes out of the argument is: Why put faith in an OS that is rejected and doesn't sell? Yes, obviously Symbian's fare share has dropped considerably, however new updates have arrived and are proving themselves worthy and are accepted by the consumer which should be of utmost importance for the company. Harmattan is also selling and is on the most wanted list, so what gives? WP is a joke when Nokia is concerned. Longtime loyal consumers have stayed with Nokia for their OS, design, reliability, services, etc. If all those consumers wanted Windows, they would have bought it by now. WM is as close as an OS will get to its desktop counterpart.

My conclusion is, Nokia's customers have been crying out for something new and flashy, but not different. Nokia has this inhouse and yet they throw their current and potential customers to Samsung, HTC, etc.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Even the joke that was the N97 didn't lose so much market share in so little time. So it's not crappy phones the only problem. It's mοrοnic management.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

N97 sold quite well actually.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

N97 sold nicely.... it unfortunately sold nicely. That phone alone tarnished Nokia's and Symbians image in West. Even Vanjoki admitted that the phone was a failure, something you don't hear everyday when the phone sold +2 million under 2 months.


Sorry but button-less doesn't make better. Symbian has some very deep problems and honestly it's pretty much only targeted outside Europe and North America. The market i'm not in.

While 200 euros or less Symbian device is all and well. I'll take Android, iOS, WP7 device that's +300e any day over Symbian device. Especially iOS and WP7 usability is from a different planet.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Symbian is already buttonless, it only has the menu button to take care of. And the problems you think exist, are gone. Symbian is on a whole different playing field. I had a play with a 701, pretty much flawless on that ARM11. Even though, the CPU is 2 generations old, the GPU more than makes up for it. It's currently the best in the market and is 1080p capable (software limited).

Nokia has taken care of their past mistakes, however, Elop didn't allow any of it to happen. He is either cancelling or delaying inhouse projects. Management was an issue in past development, and under Elop, it still is. Hardware, which was the main problem, has improved significantly compared to those GPU-less devices after the OMAP 2420 era.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

you are mixing market share and sale numbers, if SALE NUMBERS fall THAN you need tu boost up your margins, and at the time nokia anounced that its killing symbian(around the time n8 was the top symbian device), even thou the market share percentage was down, the NUMBER OF SYMBIAN DEVICES SOLD WAS BIGGER THAN EVER!

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Do you think the market has reached saturation point? Being panicked into doing something drastic because your market share is declining when the market is growing at the rate it is and countries like China and India have barely got started is exactly the kind of vanity that leads to self destruction. NOKIA had plenty of time and space to act rationally.

Before Elop's announcement NOKIA had GROWING SALES, GROWING MARGINS and good PROFITABILITY. They also had a cohesive plan to cover mid-tier (Symbian) and high-tier (MeeGo) devices using a unified developer platform (Qt). Sure they had taken longer than the optimum amount of time to execute that plan but they had just reached the point where it could start to bear fruit and then what happens?...

Elop scuppers that plan and instead announces NOKIA will swap to an OS that is already a proven failure in the market place. As market share is your obsession check out the figure for WP7 and that's despite quality manufacturers like Samsung, LG and HTC already providing extremely nice hardware for it, better hardware than Symbian's ever enjoyed.

In fact Elop's actions absolutely guaranteed NOKIA would lose market share. In developed countries we are now seeing feature phones dropping off the bottom of the scale as many consumers opt for budget smart phones instead, this is exactly the kind of customer retailers and carriers would have pitched Symbian phones at if it weren't for the fact Elop had announced them EOL. Now low cost Android devices are being very successfully marketed to those customers instead.

WP7 supports a very limited range of hardware and the level of hardware it it requires just to run is too expensive for budget phones so NOKIA will now struggle to compete in that market.

At the top end NOKIA's hardware guys are wanting to put multi-core processors, higher res screens, better cameras, etc... on their new phones but WP7 doesn't support that either and it's likely to be another 9-12 months before it does. NOKIA are powerless to do anything about this except badger M$ to please hurry up and make WP7 as functional as Symbian is right now.

NOKIA can no longer compete on either scale, WP7 being the limiting factor.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

And you're quite mistaken my friend.

Let's keep numbers simple.

I once sold something for $1.00 in a 1 million lot - so 1 million dollars, and it cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be 50 cents on each, so half a million would go into my pocket.

I now sell something for $1.00 in a half million lot - so half a million dollars and it still cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be the same, so quarter of a million would go into my pocket.

If I want half a million to go into my pocket, I would either have to sell the product for higher, advertise it less but still sell, sell more, or find other ways to cut corners if my sales were lower than before and I want to pocket the same. Or diversify. Or expand to new areas.

Nokia's not doing any of the above. Their market share is shrinking meanwhile world population is growing. They might be charging higher for certain products, but those aren't selling high. The one thing that sold in mass quantities is on the decline because of prior announcements - read: Symbian.

So what are you saying? How would you boost your margins? Talking about it but never pointing it out doesn't exactly equate to making sense. Simply stated, make sense - exactly what do you think Nokia should do?

Because right now, their profits, their share and their margins are all shrinking - mainly because now they have to license a technology whereas they used to own all of the OS's they used.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

At the end of the day the general public can spot a turd a mile off, even a well polished one like WP7, and there just aren't enough salesmen good enough to manage to sell turds.

If I was Nokia and I had a free hand to do what I liked (and I suspect the deal with Microsoft limits what they can sell where) then I would..

1. release the N9 globally
2. Update and release the N950 globally as a highend "Communicator" device packed with whatever tech can be squeezed in
3. Continue development of Harmattan in house
4. Develop and launch a Harmattan device at the £100/150euro price point ASAP.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

and make another harmattan device with latest chipset, :D

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I think the point is that Nokias sales were not in decline until the announcment. Whether it would have been even without it is debatable (I think it would have anyway, as Nokia became less relevant, not its OS) but people are looking at the growing, yes, growing, sales data before the announcment of WP7 and wondering.

http://m.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentr...ia37munits.png

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I think this was a good thing that Nokia didn't compromise their product to the carrier. Looking at the crippled carrier Android phones, e.g. wifi hotspot is disabled, I'm glad I can use my N900 on T-Mobile US with US$10 unlimtied data plan because they don't sell it and don't force it to use smartphone data plan. Same when I have US$15 unlimited data and no function crippled when using N95 on AT&T.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I think that was also because they have phrased out the Series 40 low end device and move Symbian devices to fill the spot for lower end devices at lowered price.
While moving Symbian to mass volume low end devices, the WP7 phone is supposed to fill the spot of Series 60 as the highend phones.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I wonder which plan that is ($10)! I have recently got T-mobile, don't have much idea about US carriers. Got prepaid with voice only for a while (since almost all of the time I would be at home or office, I thought its not necessary to get data plan which I would merely be using, yet would love to know which plan that you are taking about).

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

what about the margins?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

is putting the fate of the whole company for one card (symbian) rational thinking?

Sigh, you guys don't listen except one point from ten made... it is starting to get really frustrating so this is my last post here:

I have already previously stated a sentence "except the next billion" (or something like that) which directly implies to nokias strategy to keep offering their ecosystem with (own) OS to the next billion.

Our western systems just don't cut it in China, India, Africa etc. They need systems tailored to them.

The whole time I have been talking about western world because I thought everyone knows that dropping symbian is only for USA and western europe (plus some other regions?). Developing countries don't affect those areas mentioned and vice versa. Two different worlds, thus making a clear line with the phrase "The next billion"

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

The price for N9 phones have been lowered in Sweden. Is this a sign of that Nokia is checking if they should start to focus a bit more on MeeGo?

Intro prices for N9 was about $800, this week you can get it for about $450. The vat in Sweden is very high so $450 in Sweden would be same as maybe $350 in US.

N9 sales seems to be climbing here

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

are you stupid or you dont know how to read or are you simply ignoring what i wrote? you are mixing market share and sale numbers yet again...lets say nokias market share was 100% and they sold 1 million devices quarterly and then android and ios came and nokias share went down to 30% share with symbian but sold 2 million devices quarterly, which one is better? the second situation is better and that is where nokia was when the decided to kill symbian, they were selling more devices than ever just on a much larger market, BUT THEIR SALES WERE GOING UP AND NOT DOW AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, SYMBIAN WAS GROWING!

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

margins were maybe a bit lower than for the most since it had factories in europe and not south-east asia, seriously wish you and all other that think nokia should have switched OS worked for nokia and were laid off when nokia did what it did

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

The mistake in your argument is that while market share was declining unit sales were growing, because of the growing market. That happens to every market leader, like the iPad. There is nothing wrong with that.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I don't remember the numbers exactly but Nokia smartphones was profitable. Always. Now it isn't. And I repeat. That's not because of WP. It's because of stupid moves. Samsung is selling the year old Galaxy S at 279 eur with an updated cpu. Where is the N8-01? It would still be the best cameraphone out there, and if you look around you'll see the price is less than 300 too for the old model. So, they could put a new case, 1ghz and sell it at 300 as a midrange phone. Yet they don't.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I would say n9 sales are almost insignificant now compared to lumia sales. The lumia 800 is actually on the bestseller list in many countries. Was to be expected of course.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Advertising is massive for Lumia 800 here in Sweden.

Selling more than N9 wouldn't be hard though but I don't think it will sell well.

Today Nokia have informed that they fire 4000 more workers.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I'm assuming that you have done the homework and that the figure quoted is the number of people that Nokia has working on Symbian. If so then they should fire them all and hire some more productive workers.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

That plan is not available anymore.

With unlimited voice, text and data (2gb fast, rest slow) for $49 (I actually got it for $45), it is still the best deal available in USA

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I'd say it's a sign that a price reduction is necessary to boost falling demand, now that they are done with fleecing all the early adopters. There's nothing unusual about this.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

i am not sure if the demand is really that low. I have been in a mobile shop today in Germany and asked about Lumina 800 and N9. They sell only a very few L800´s (even if this is the most advertised mobile in this shop) but today, they had 3 requests for N9. Unfortunately, they cannot sell it, because its in Germany. Note, that its now 15:00 here so there are still some hours where people might request that phone :P

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

this is maemo community, lets hope someday another company bring us a fresh new start for maemo, nokia is dumb enough to listening and theyre never learn a thing, i love maemo

send it from my N900(the one that never go old)

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Thanks for calling me stupid. It really validates your point.

I guess you overlooked the statement I made about how Symbian was a big seller for Nokia until Elop made that announcement distancing Nokia from Symbian.

So let's recap, in smaller words. Symbian was selling great. Along came Elop. He stated that Nokia was going away from Symbian. Sales started slipping on Symbian. WP7 isn't selling great - 1 million or so phones tops so far for Nokia; more for Symbian even on their decline. Nokia's share is lesser now than ever. And their valuation - be it stock or otherwise - is lower now too.

Sales might have been going up, but not after Elop's comments. Added on top of the loss of sales due to competition, that's not a good formula for Nokia. Worse, WP7 isn't gathering the attention of even Harmattan right now.

And in the future, keep the conversation civil and adult. I know it's hard to do, but it makes for a better community.

Take care.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

You can't extrapolate anything useful from that. I went to my local phone shop and they told me that had not sold any iPhones today. I guess the iPhone is not selling too well.

No business reduces the price of a product if they are able to sell it at the existing price.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Harmattan should stay in the high end. Belle is more than excellent for the mid and low end. Harmattan will attract people to buy a Nokia. Belle will more than satisfy with its previously planned shared app library.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Nokia ends production in Europe and Latin America... yeah. That's the kind of stuff that happens when your share, your margins and valuation(s) drop.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

My theory is that Harmattan is a lot more "hackable" and developer friendly than Belle/symbian.

Having a phone at this price point which is open & developer friendly would gather a lot of attention, similar to how Android handsets such as the ZTE blade and Cresent have done (Orange SanFrancisco and II in the UK).

Not that it matters, as Elop has made Nokia's bed and they are determined to lay in it until the bitter end.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

They said today, their plan B is to make plan A work, so Nokia will die with WP.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

i didnt call you stupid, i asked you a question since you made a mistake, i corrected you and in your response to me you again the same invalid point as in your previous post so that doesnt leave many options as to why you did it and my question was valid

btw:
gerbick:

I think you all are arguing from different angles sorta the same thing. Let's put it this way... if your market share drops considerably, then your margins need to jump considerably - I haven't seen any proof of that yet.

If you switch to something that's not selling well, your profits will invariably decline as well as your valuation - case in point, Nokia's stock is less now than it was a year ago... under $5.00, I bought in at low $8.00, sold at $8.40, got out before this drop.


GrimyHR:
you are mixing market share and sale numbers, if SALE NUMBERS fall THAN you need tu boost up your margins, and at the time nokia anounced that its killing symbian(around the time n8 was the top symbian device), even thou the market share percentage was down, the NUMBER OF SYMBIAN DEVICES SOLD WAS BIGGER THAN EVER!


gerbick:
And you're quite mistaken my friend.

Let's keep numbers simple.

I once sold something for $1.00 in a 1 million lot - so 1 million dollars, and it cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be 50 cents on each, so half a million would go into my pocket.

I now sell something for $1.00 in a half million lot - so half a million dollars and it still cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be the same, so quarter of a million would go into my pocket.

If I want half a million to go into my pocket, I would either have to sell the product for higher, advertise it less but still sell, sell more, or find other ways to cut corners if my sales were lower than before and I want to pocket the same. Or diversify. Or expand to new areas.

Nokia's not doing any of the above. Their market share is shrinking meanwhile world population is growing. They might be charging higher for certain products, but those aren't selling high. The one thing that sold in mass quantities is on the decline because of prior announcements - read: Symbian.


you really dont see your mistake? its not a small one you know...