Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

<pessimism>
My fear with all that android compatibility (layer) on the phone is, that most software developers won't have interest porting their gems to Sailfish.
What's the appeal as the phone is running the android version fine?
It would be again the users [thanks to TMO!] doing their own stuff as it was for harmattan/freemantle.
</pessimism>

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

I apologise if you knew this, but here it goes anyway: whenever you notice your phone consistently slow (not those glitches that happens with certain pages's javascript for instance), open a terminal and type "free" - share the results and we'll figure out what's doing.

I'm working on the assumption that Jolla did this and much more in their tests.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Well, you don't get a bunch of things that Sailfish gives you, such as:
- Full screen usage (Android apps will have to have 3 buttons drawn at the bottom)
- No pulley menu
- No "multitasking" tasks on the multitasking screen (e.g., play/pause/next in the Music Player application)
- No access to the deafult UI components of Silica
- No integration with Ambience
- Marc also hinted that "of course" native applications will run faster, but we don't have stats for that as yet

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

You make it sound like if they did create a phone with a quad core CPU and 3GB RAM, that they'd decide to cut costs and include a 500mAH battery.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Usually battery isnt big because of size not cost. :)

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

What he said

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Wrong. Iphone 4S that I use from time to time has a great screen and keyboard. Very few mistakes. N9 was by far the worst. WP is in between. Never tried copycat Android

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Really? You think by having the output of free the limitation of 1GB RAM on the N9 can be covered? There is a reason things like FasterN9 exist. Let's not hide flaws and say 1gb is sufficient when the N9 has shown that on boot system libraries and apps/services itself take up 700MB of RAM.

Maybe Wayland brings down the RAM usage to achieve a UI of 60fps because this clearly failed on the N9. Want examples? Refresh your feeds and scroll the home screens; 10fps. Sync all mail accounts and minimise Fenix, try opening phone app etc.

The N900 has been limited among other things mainly by its 256MB RAM, the N9 as we understand now had to have a custom chip to get the 1GB of RAM required and now the Jolla is unfortunately again limited to 1GB of RAM. In an OS that is geared towards true multi tasking, the RAM is really important compared to Android etc.

Does that mean I won't get the Jolla? No, I still want it as it looks the best thing but I won't be surprised with the device being limited by RAM (again)...

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Did I mention that I have 3 GB ;)

Ok, this was the last time.

Who is responsible for that Google doc. Their grammar == mine.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

No, but free gives you an idea of how much memory you have free, how much is being swapped and how much is being used for fs cache. I hardly ever got to 700MB myself, and the display capabilities of the GPU are another matter - the Raspberry Pi can play videos at 30fps/1080p no problem with 256MB RAM and 512MB RAM, so very little to do with memory.

I actually know why my N9 slows down when it does, and most of the time is not the amount of applications open but some heavy Javascript here and there. Having said this, I'll give your use cases a go and see what happens.

I do agree that a more thorough diagnostic/monitoring application will give you better information, but was just suggesting an easy one. The command free is used quite widely in Linux environments to give you a very quick and light weight snapshot of the memory situation. I don't think it should be disregarded.

EDIT: I stand corrected... you have to use "top" to see the amount cached, for some reason it isn't implemented in free (or maybe if you use bash instead of bb).

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

I quite like Android's keyboard, way better than my old iPhone's (although the issue there may have been the tiddly screen). Android's pretty good at guessing the next word too which saves a lot of time.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Native english speakers might appreciate a good prediction/correction engine, but for me it's the first thing I disable on a new phone. I type a lot non-words, technical jargon, or transliterated Greek on a keyboard and I just want to have what I typed, not what the phone thinks I did.

With the correction disabled, the N9 has the best keyboard because of it's nice haptics and ability to modify layouts, with BB10 coming second (because of no haptics, no dead keys -you have to longpress to type accented characters- and having always capital labels) and WP third. iPhone is distant 4th (inverted dead key sequence order - you have to type the dead key after the letter, wtf!) and second to last comes symbian which for some weird reason seems like having tiny keys on a 4" display, which is bigger than the N9. Last comes android which on anything smaller than 4" is unusable (upside is that you can choose your own vkb there).

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Its upto the developers to learn code and use less resourses and free memory/CPU.

If apps eating to much memory they are often broken piece of ****. Thats why I personally dont use windows as an example.

In case of N9 eating to much memory/resources my guess is one of those is that damn tracker daemon.

I am suprised that Linux geeks this days also has gone nuts about HW specs. Probadly brainwatched by Android and the need of > 2Gb RAM on a mobile. Its plain ridiculous. Its a phone for got sake. My personal server has around 1Gb and works nicely. And now people needs 2Gb on a phone!?

Ofcourse if you use several crappy Android apps the 1Gb is not enought but main reason to buy an Jolla is not Android. Those people buying Jolla because of Android will be disapointed.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

My two cents in discussion off RAM is based on my 4 years old Samsung N140. I upgraded RAM from 1gb to 2gb and it made no difference. My tasks are quite light, but that usage would be heavy when I operate with a smart phone. Ubuntu hardly ever takes even the 1gb. It's the Atom CPU that is limiting the performance on my netbook. I don't want to sound like a fanboy who is defending Jolla, but when discussing RAM usage I really cannot understand why some people just need moar specs.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

I agree it is a design flaw. The N9's that is. For using so much. The 1GB laptop I mentioned a few posts up used about 120MB on boot. I ran heavy applications on it like GIMP, DVD Author and LibreOffice and never used more than 500MB. So why does a phone need 700MB?

This comes from my N900. Does N9's free look different?
My WiFi password contains only basic 7-bit ASCII characters but includes such stumbling blocks as the pipe (|) and backquote (`). I had no problems typing the whole thing on two Android devices but a friend's iPhone was an epic fail. After half an hour we gave up trying to figure out how to type the backquote. I ended up sending the password to the phone by SMS.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

You don't need more space. Lumia 620 works great on 512 RAM. But Jolla claims multitasking abilities. Well....if you want to truly multitask you need RAM. The more the better. 1gb is not enough, as seen on n9 and n900. Both times the devices were underpowered..

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

I like how some people take things literally when the intended message is obvious... but nevermind.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Mikecomputing,

Looks like you need a reading lesson because you keep spouting the same old about inefficient code when the two examples I gave you were of the system apps! Want more? Open 9 windows on grob, minimise them, receive a phone call and at the end of the phone call open contacts and attempt a message out. You see the fps dropping during the whole process! Want one more example? Search the forums and see posts of people complaining that when dpkg is installing something, all their running applications (sometimes only one or two are running) get closed. Know why? Because of out-of-memory... Want to keep blaming the poor coding still?


Pichlo, a desktop and a phone are different things. Why do we compare arm and x86 platforms RAM usage when the codes etc are different? Again I am not whining about 1GB of RAM but I am trying to illustrate to all those who keep saying 1GB is more than enough that the previous phone designed by the same team was limited by its RAM certainly and that was 2 years ago.

Now let's compare with the fruit phone. It doesn't have true multi tasking as we know hence it is able to allocate it's RAM usage better to foreground activities but on something like the N9 where you can exploit the full capabilities of the multi tasking OS, more than 1GB of RAM would make a huge difference...

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Sure, ARM is not x86, but six times more RAM on idle? I maintain that this is the N9's fault.

Edit: If you really want to compare like for like, then I suggets booting the N9 to Debian or Ubuntu if there is such an option and checking the RAM use then. I can't as I do not have the N9.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

imho, n9 fault were the slow processor and slow swap memory...makes application stays in background much longer than it should.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Same - you even have a greater version of bb (N9's is 1.20.0)

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Which Android-keyboard you mean, or all of them (~100)?
https://play.google.com/store/search?q=keyboard&c=apps

I must say, I type faster with Samsung Galaxy S3 touchscreen qwerty, than with N900 hardware qwerty. There was alot more typos in the start, but those have gone away with time and with a help of word correction aid.

I use couple of soft keyboards daily. Hacker's keyboard is useful in ssh-terminals:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ion.pckeyboard

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

this RAM argument is actually funny. i don't think the slowdowns of n9 is because of ram. not even close in my opinion. i don't know the exact reason (maybe the cpu?) but RAM amount is definitely not the case. my experience with the RAM of n9's was that the device almost always uses most of the ram BUT that never determined my device's speed. heck i even managed to open 30 apps without a slowdown when almost 800 mb memory was used before testing the device.
anyway i'm hoping (actually sure) that those problems are solved on the sailfish device. the only thing that may consume memory is the heavy crapdroid applications (maybe good acl from jolla?). 1gb ram is not a limitation. it will be enough if the os is good/optimized/whatever enough to handle the memory amount.

if you want so much RAM buy a galaxy note 3.

now you can call me a fanboy.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

BTW, have Jolla announced what the phone is going to be called? If not may I suggest N10! That would be a real slap in the trojans face. :)

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

It's called "The Jolla".

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

In that case I suggest the Maemo community should call it N10, unofficially.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

If the device actually is like a portable computer and you can get a keyboard other half, some part of the community may want to call it N1000 :-)

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Yeah, Jolla NX perhaps. :)

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Well... N900->N9->... N0.09?

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

The Jolla guys couldn't get multitasking to work properly on N900 nor N9. Why do you think they will get it right now with 1gb of RAM????

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

I see what you are doing right there...

Love glonass...locks so much faster. We'll done jolla.

By the way. Jolla spec updated with some small things.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Well, you are not correct here. Just all GLONASS receivers are also able to receive GPS signals, so the coverage is just a little bit better. And GLONASS is created mostly for Russia, so the coverage in other world could be "good & better" for about 92% of the day and in some areas it is about 80%. Also the accuracy of GPS is better.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

How do you know I'm not correct? IT is great in europé or samsung creating much better gps than the rest. I think its glonass(additional satellites to GPS), not samsung. And you are right, but there are apps to count Numbers of satellite and lock time. Try them to see if yout location can use glonass to improve or not.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Currently the specs page shows that:
Did the page show '6-points' when they were initially revealed?
Hmm.. are we going to lose something else from now 'til when the device will be released? :rolleyes:

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Oh really??? And im thinking to my self how do i use 6-7 apps simultaneously daily. The micrasoft guys couldn't even dare to try it.

im not even hoping anymore, i'm saying that it will be better. ;)

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

It still says 6-point multitouch. I don't know where you've read it would be 5-point, but I can't find it.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Damn it I want that point back :(

Not if you scroll down @ jolla.com

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Maybe try to disable swap-memory, and see then if there is enough RAM still?

In Android, if an app is well written, it can resume from the pause stage as well at it could resume from swapped stage in an OS where swap memory is enabled. But there is lazy coders both in Android and outside Android.

In Android SGS3, I find 1 GB RAM is not enough,
when I have Firefox with 10 tabs open, and for example music player (mp3, ac4, vorbis) in the bacground playing music and I want to take a photo with the camera. After the photo has been taken and I return to Firefox, I notice it hasn't stayed alive in the background but gone to Androids "pause"-stage, because FF has failed to keep the session data alive for some web-page. (FF could do better though.)

Doing the same with Galaxy S4 (2 GB RAM) does not put a FF with 10 tabs to pause stage but it stays alive. So extra 1 GB RAM in S4 helps in this use case. I haven't checked how much extra RAM over 1 GB would actually work. And yes, FF for Android is abit bloated.

The problem manifests itself also when PasswdSafe application is used with FF which has ~10 tabs open. Sometimes when there are also other apps open in the background, happens this:
1) a web page requires a login+password.
2) I open PasswdSafe and give the master password.
3) Username is fetched from PasswdSafe-app,
4) then pasted to FF,
5) then password for the site is wanted to be copied from the PasswdSafe, but the app has been pause'd in the background, and when resumed the app "behaves badly" and asks for the main password, again.
The app PasswdSafe doesn't actually behave badly, because it cannot really trust filesystem and keep the encrypted password database open during the Android pause-stage. It could not trust the swap-partition either if the process would be swapped there. I do not remember how in N900 this was, was PasswdSafe allowed to be swapped out.

Ofcourse, having 10 tabs and web sites open in Firefox may not be the smart thing to do. But I tend to forgot I am using a phone and not a PC. People use tabs also in mobile devices just because they can.

Now in the Jolla's first device, when both Qt and Android stacks are loaded and a user multitasks both Android apps and Qt apps, having just 1 GB may cause problems.

Also when using multiwindow multitasking in Android devices, it helps to have more RAM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ4iQudfdSk (2m 16s)
I must say, Galaxy Note3 (3 GB RAM) has the best multi tasking currently as seen in the video. Note3 can run Qt-apps as well.

Multiwindow+multitasking is something which should be in Sailfish also eventually.

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

In Europe? Then our hopes are on Galileo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo..._navigation%29

Re: Official specs of Jolla phone surface
 

Sure you can open 6-1000 apps and then it will freeze, lag, reboot and eventually you need to reopen the windows and close others. It was never STABLE multitasking. You can't put out a device today that is not stable. Beta efforts of the likes of N900 and N9 are history in this industry.