Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Yes, which means that the tablet needs to replace the functions of the laptop.
As it happens, my laptop has no removable sd card that I'd need to swap with other devices; --> no need for that in the tablet either.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Whereas I remove mine regularly as it's the quickest way to get music on to the card on my Mac. Remember that Macs do not support MTP. SFTP is OK too provided your phone has developer mode on and you've installed horndis on the Mac to get USB networking.

That is fine provided your camera still has battery life and it's how I usually work also with laptops. For a tablet it'd need to support the camera's mtp/ptp mode. You're then backing up your images from your cards using the camera as an expensive card reader. But, where are you backing up too? The tablet has less space than the camera. Do we have external USB drive support yet in Sailfish? And which filesystems? ;)

USB transfer is old school for cameras though. My camera has wifi. There's an android app to control the camera remotely and transfer files. It doesn't work on Sailfish however because I think it sets up an adhoc network between android and the camera. That kind of networking doesn't appear to be supported by Sailfish's android layer.

So as I said earlier, I bought a Sony Z3 compact tablet instead because it works in all of the possible usage modes outlined above already. I'm not happy it's running Android but it's the least bad option and maybe one day Jolla will get out a sailfish port. As a mobile photographers aid it works and Jolla shot themselves in the head here.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Neither does mine. It's an 11" Macbook Air. I use a USB3 card reader Which is also what I use with my Sony tablet and a USB otg cable.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

So it looks like you probably cannot ditch your laptop yet, huh?

I was thinking of the use case where you want to quickly upload something (a picture or a video clip) to the net, maybe doing some cropping/rescaling/transcoding before doing that.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Oh wow, really? Maybe you should upgrade to a better operating system. All these people complaining about exFAT being a standard and Jolla won't support it (out of the box) etc, but then an operating system that is ludicrously expensive (well, actually the hardware) that doesn't even support MTP (out of the box) is okay? How do you even connect any device that isn't an iDevice to it? I don't think you can really blame Jolla that their device doesn't work as it should with Fisher-Price computers.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

This.

This argument is what's driving me nuts. Folks can post all day long that they don't like the design of Jolla's tablet. That's fine. What's crazy here is when they argue that Jolla tablet isn't sufficiently similar to all the thousands of other tablets out there today. Not that it is inherently worse, but simply that it is different.

If you want a device that is exactly the same as an Android tablet, then honestly, you should just buy an Android tablet. If your top concern is reliability, please do not choose the first tablet designed and built by a startup company using an entirely new OS. If you're looking for the latest & greatest apps, you should check out the iPad.

If the only way for Jolla to go "mainstream" is to slavishly copy every design decision made by the big guys, I see no point for Jolla to exist in the first place...

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Oh well... Sorry for being the captain obvious, but...

When Jolla is the size of Apple (or Microsoft), they can push their own standards and 'not support' whatever they want, because manufacturers will try to support them.

Mentioning MTP is quite nice, as it was also made by Microsoft and there were quite a few comments on TMO complaining about Jolla supporting it :D

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Exactly, which is why I think it's completely stupid to say "man, **** Jolla for not supporting *proprietary standard* supported by Apple, but I have no problem whatsoever with Apple not supporting *other proprietary standard* that is supported by Jolla". Consistency, please.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Ah. So, all devices not (a) designed by Apple or Microsoft, or (b) slavish copies of devices designed by Apple or Microsoft, are an automatic fail?

Just when did this become obvious? (And why should I want to live in a world where this is obvious?)

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Mind = Blown

How did you get this out of my post will likely remain a mystery till the end of time :)


EDIT:
To elaborate... I was reacting to a post saying "why to blame Jolla when even Apple doesn't support standards" (I am not gonna dig into whether MTP is a standard) by arguing that you cannot compare a small company to a large one. You might not want to live in this reality, but it is a fact that companies support iPhone rather than iOS supports other companies. I never said it was good, but that's just how it is.

Anyways, back to the original discussion:
This thread became a nice practice for the "hey, let me show you why it is great that you cannot transfer files from your camera to the tablet, because you have been doing it wrong all along", but the point was: it was a stretch goal, possibly thousands of people have contributed to reach the stretch goal and then many of those or other bought the tablet because this feature was promised. That is the problem.

EDIT 2: Just read pichlo's comment after my edit and 100% agree. I don't use Windows, I do not have cards larger than 32GB (yet), I did not buy the tablet for this reason. But I am sure many people did and they are not likely to appear on TMO to raise their concerns.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Which means that you have to remember to take three things on your holiday in Ibiza. Camera, tablet, USB cable.

Look, I also don't think that a missing exFAT support is a big deal. To start with, I did not book the tablet. I do not have any SD cards larger than 32GB. And even if I did, I'm sure I could find some workaround or after-market solution. That is not a problem.

What is a problem though is that Jolla had announced that unfortunate stretch goal. I also think they should never have but they did. And the goal was reached. Yes, it was a wrong goal (IMO) but going back on their word is a big no-no. Not the lack of an exFAT support. The lack of trust.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

No mystery! :) You said Apple and Microsoft can push their own standards. And thus, presumably, nobody else can. Certainly not a small startup.

Therefore, only Apple and Microsoft can innovate, because their stranglehold over standards will prevent anyone else from doing so.

(At the very least, you are presenting an enormous barrier to entry for any small company attempting to develop their own hardware...)

EDIT: Just saw your edit. I have to agree, the stretch goal was a dumb idea from the beginning; regardless of which side you choose, there were many better options available for attracting more people to supporting the tablet. Paying for licensing just isn't exciting. :)

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

I agree with this, the goal itself was ********.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

First, I hope that Jolla does not push their own standards. Pushing your own standard is never a good thing, whether you're big or small.
Second, yes Apple, Microsoft, Samsung or Google do push their own standards and it is a pure logic that they would have not been able to do so if they were not big.

Sure, that is definitely their aim - Microsoft has been doing that ever since I remember. It gives you a competitive advantage to have control over a "standard".

Yes, I am presenting facts. Sometimes, it hurts to hear them :)


But again, that wasn't my point. The main problem is not Jolla supporting or not supporting standards - the problem is that they announced something and I am sure that based on that announcement, many regular people (who don't care about any standards, just about their devices working together) have bought the tablet.

Jolla should have either never made such announcement, or stood by it once they did. Doing anything else is a false marketing.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

??? You are saying here:

(1) Creating your own standards is not good.
(2) Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, and Google create their own standards.

So, from this, I would have to deduce that exFAT (a standard created by Microsoft) is not good. Right?

Or it is good because Microsoft, unlike Jolla, is big?

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

No. I don't think that's the case. They certainly don't hate regular customers. they're just a bit unlike. ;)

Also, from what I gathered the story was like this:

First they only supported SD-cards <32GB in a standards compliant way, but cards above 32GB would work if reformated to a file system supported by the kernel. (Same situation as with the Jolla phone today.) Using such file systems is not recommended, neither is re-formating an SD-card. So this solution wasn't an official support of cards >32GB, but it worked somehow.

Then they announced that if they'd get more money, they'd really support SD cards above 32GB as sold in the stores. (By definition of the standards, those are exFAT formated SDXC cards.) That would have meant real, official support for cards >32GB.

Now that the goal is achieved, from what the latest news say they keep the money, but don't move forward to official support for cards above 32GB. They'll keep the half-baked solution that was there in the first place, from the very beginning: No official support for cards >32GB, but some trickery that will wipe existing data from the card, most probably make it slower and reduce its lifespan. That's what we had in the very beginning, that's what I have today on my Jolla phone. It's part of Sailfish OS right now, no need to licence or develop anything for it.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

I think you're projecting a bit too much Copernicus. It's not about Jolla being the same as the others.

I'm absolutely fine with Jolla doing their own thing BUT there are consequences with their limited interoperability with the outside world.

The exfat situation means I can't do this...

http://petapixel.com/2013/03/26/how-...l-hard-drives/

The use of Microsoft's crappy mtp protocol means I have to use sftp on non-Windows or non-linux systems.

Their buggy PTP support makes it impossible to use common photo transfer tools, even on a Mac that supports PTP.

The lack of CalDAV and CardDAV support means I have to use Microsoft's Exchange or Google which is an entirely hypocritical situation given the protests about paying licences to Microsoft over exfat and privacy issues with having to have a Jolla account to download from the store.

There's still no SIP support and no sign of either Jolla doing it, them opening up accounts plugins or a third party doing it.

Most of these limitations I'd put down to simply lack of development resource and that they would get done eventually. But that's obviously not the case if they're going to ditch consumer oriented features because mouthy Linux fundamentalists don't want to pay Microsoft for another licence on a device that uses dozens of proprietary licensed tech already.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

That's what it's about. I'm really not all that concerned about the product and it's features: I myself will be able to work around missing exFAT support in one way or another (even if it'll be unnecessarily troublesome). Others will be lost when confronted with the situation, but hey, who cares about people who have social lives and don't spend their time researching file systems and the physical storage characteristics of an SD card. We're nerds, aren't we?

Also, I still think the Jolla tablet, the Jolla phone and SailfishOS are great products worth being supported. That won't go away because of one feature missing. It's only the high level of trust that I had put in Jolla and its crew that is now gone.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Yes, you got the deduction absolutely right.

The exFAT standard is absolutely ridiculous, but it exists and is followed by device manufacturers (cameras, as mentioned in this thread before).
By the way, the "if you want something mainstream, buy an Android/iOS tablet" argument is quite off the mark. Not supporting standards (however crazy they are) is nothing that should be viewed as "not being same as others".
Because in the end of the day, a regular buyer (you might argue that Jolla isn't for regular buyers, but 1) I would strongly oppose this, 2) if it isn't then they are doomed like the troll 'bluefoot' is saying all along ;) ) will not care about any mainstream, standards or ideology - it will come to 'my tablet can read my data from my 128GB card as was advertised, or it cannot'.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

It's not "a standard created by Microsoft". (ActiveSync is "a standard created by Microsoft". Funny how none of the people who oppose exFAT ever made the same drama about Exchange support on the Jolla phone.)

It's the standard. There's only one.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

I'm puzzled as to what proprietary interoperability standards people think Apple use. Other than Facetime/iMessage I can't really think of any. IChat used to use jabber.

Their mail uses IMAP, calendar is CalDAV, contacts are CardDAV, cloud storage is WebDAV.

They don't support Microsoft's mtp at the os level but they do support the ptp subset in iPhoto.

Jolla's support of all these open standards is dismal unfortunately.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

IIRC, the furore was over not having USB mass storage as an option but MTP only. Anyway doesn't make a difference as since the N9 I have always used sftp for my transfers including on my android devices. MTP is such a pos after all :D

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

And that's what I'm saying. If the "consequences" of not doing things the Apple/Microsoft way are that great, then only Apple/Microsoft can innovate. No point in designing your own hardware; the big guys have already won before you even start.

Wow! That seems awfully complex. Why not just plug the external HDD directly into the tablet? USB-OTG was designed for just that sort of task, wasn't it?

EDIT: My mistake, this article was about backing up camera photos to the tablet and then to the HDD. So, my next question: why not just plug the camera directly into the tablet? :)

??? MTP is the standard, right? It's created by Microsoft. The fact that Apple doesn't support it just means that Apple is trying to do the same thing Jolla is, right?

(My head is starting to spin here -- is Microsoft bad for creating the MTP standard, or is Apple bad for not following the MTP standard, or is Jolla now bad for actually following the MTP standard?)

Well, but that's the thing -- Jolla's developers aren't following mouthy Linux fundamentalists. They ARE mouthy Linux fundamentalists. ;)

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

It's hard to go mainstream if you despise compatibility with common standards completely. To do that you need:

- strong brand
- strong family of devices and services ("ecosystem" if you will)
- your incompatible solutions should be better than alternatives
- boatload of cash to communicate those improvements to mainstream audience

However, if the only reason for incompatibility is unwillingness to pay for some license (or more accurately, unwillingness to pay if it goes to Microsoft) then it's like pissing in ones own shoe. So far I have seen absolutely no argument about possible technical improvements by choosing some other file system over exFAT - quite the contrary, many suggestions for alternative FS for SD-card actually are worse, for example in regard to durability of those cards (oh yeah, go ahead and use journalling FS in one...). MTP saves something with people who have Windows-based computers, but there is no easing for those who need interoperability with ie. cameras.

So, my main argument is, as it has always been, be different in things you can do better. But never break compatibility if you cannot deliver something better. I can see many things better in Jolla and Sailfish compared to alternatives. Unfortunately this is not one of those cases, neither from technical or user experience point of view.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

In this case Jolla is not doing sdxc card support the SD Card Association way which is the way even the little guys do it.


Tablets generally only have one usb port so he was using the tablet as an interim storage space. He could have solved it with a hub probably. But in any case Sailfish doesn't support usb otg iirc.

Because tablets generally do not support host mode mtp. They generally appear as slave devices.


They support ptp in iPhoto because that is what cameras support.They haven't bothered to support mtp yet.

Apple does need to do something about MTP. Google's Android File Transfer app used to work but broke about two OS versions ago.


That obviously isn't the case as the phone is full of proprietary tech often at the expense of support for open standards. See my previous list of the open standards Apple use that Jolla are dismal at using.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Troll behaviour detected...

Jolla has listened to the community in many aspects of the Jolla smartphone (features of Sailfish) and Jolla Tablet. Much more than Apple or Google listen to iOS and Android community.

The problem about exFAT on microSD is the community was/is divided. The more active side of Sailfish OS community asked for no exFAT licenses at all and Jolla agreed with the majority of the voices. That is all.

By the way, I was in favor of exFAT for Jolla Tablet, as the license per tablet is a very cheap and it would be easier to recommend Jolla Tablet for any user (without Linux experience).

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Please, read the Jolla announcement. It said microSD 128GB support. It didn't say exFAT support. Now Jolla says Jolla Tablet will have microSD 128GB support, but without exFAT.

It is not going back on their word.

Jolla trusted the community here, in TJC, etc. It followed and implemented the community wishes.

Ah, it is not lack of trust. It is lack of properly reading Jolla announcements.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

No, read carefully "Indiegogo Jolla Tablet - world's first crowdsourced tablet" site :
So Jolla officially support 128GB cards, but not in Micro$oft format (exFAT) due to licensing issues which the Sailfish community asked to remove.

And if you want exFAT support, just install it from the source code :
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=251
Maybe exFat support will be packaged and available in OpenRepos.net.

Jolla smartphone doesn't officialy support microSD > 32GB.
Sailfish OS in Jolla smartphone doesn't have an easy (GUI in Settings, etc) to format a microSD HC/XC card, as you need to use developer mode, Terminal and CLI commands.
You know that. So stop saying microSD support in Jolla Tablet is the same of Jolla smartphone. Sailfish 2.0 <> 1.1.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

It was said since the beginning in Indiegogo terms. You can't cancel a perk. Just read the terms before you decide to buy something.

Jolla is not responsible for your lack of reading capability.

The 3G stretch goal was a bet. You should know that a bet can't always win. I have already said and you are ignoring the facts : if the 3G goal was achieved, then you would have the optional perk to choose 3G for Jolla Tablet. You haven't paid anything to have 3G at all for your Jolla Tablet. Nobody is faking 3G.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Which part of Sailfish community asked to remove. For reasons not related to technical superiority, user friendliness or any comparable reason - only because of inability to cope with idea that OOB-support for SDXC would generate income for Microsoft. Anyone bother to guess what it sounds like in the ears of average user asking why he cannot use a memory card from his camera to preview his/her photos on tablet....

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Yes, that's what I would have thought two months ago, before I looked into that. The short answer is, they can't.

Let's say there is a hypothetical construction company, Holla Construction Ltd. This company once said, "We are going to build a 32 story skyscraper." It may not be stated explicitly but it is implied that the scryscraper will comply to building regulations.

Now Holla Construction Ltd is saying, "The company providing the lifts has a monopoly. We are not going to support them so we are going to build the skyscraper without lifts. People wanting to reach the top floors can use the stairs."

Whilst technically they may have built a skyscraper, it does not comply with the regulations and the moment a building inspector sees it, he will ask them to fit the lifts or demolish the non-compliant building.

I'm out of this discussion.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Wow, so a company listened to the community voices in a crowdfunding project, implemented part of the features asked by the community, and now it is not a trusted company ? :confused::eek: Let's remember :
I'm also very disappointed with part of this community, with repeated (non-adult) behaviour like this : "due to one minor feature that isn't exactly like I want, I don't trust Jolla anymore, I won't buy anything from Jolla, blablabla".

I read TMO since Nokia N810 days. I've seen many here complaining that Nokia haven't implemented all N810 features in N900 (screen size, keyboard with 4 rows, etc), saying they wouldn't buy N900. But the majority bought after seeing that N900 was not the perfect, but a good device for Linux users. Then the same behaviour about MeeGo Harmattan and Nokia N9. Many here opposed to have MeeGo Harmattan and Nokia N9 sections in TMO at all ! Some said they wouldn't buy N9 as it as just a consumer device, lacking many features of N900. But many bought after seeing that N9 was not the perfect, but a good touch smartphone for Linux users. With Sailfish and Jolla, again we have had many opossed to have discussions here in TMO, etc.

What is the lesson ? It is impossible to have a device, smartphone or tablet, with all great and minor features asked by all the community members. There is no perfect device, no perfect car, no perfect house, etc.

About Jolla Tablet : it's a crowdfunding project with changing features. It was and is stated since the start of project. It is just one tablet model, it can't satisfy all the wishes of this community.

If anybody here want a tablet with frozen specs and almost exactly features he/she wants, then search among the hundreds of iOS, Android, Windows, etc, tablets and get the one with closest specs ! It will be delivered in some days. But this tablet (with Android, iOS, Windows, etc) won't have Sailfish OS, the "unlike" feature of Jolla Tablet. It won't have features implemented by listening to the community, as Jolla already done since 11/2013. It won't have the Sailfish community.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

It's not that. The "Jolla community" have voted for NOT HAVING A FEATURE as a feature even after people have paid to get that feature.

It's like buying a sports car and then finding it comes with only three wheels because some nutter has decided that even though cars come with four wheels as standard, Reliant got away with only three in the 1980s and you could use a motorcycle licence instead of having to pay for a full car licence.

We wanted this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Elan-%2766.jpg

We got this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...obin_Green.jpg

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Nope. Jolla Tablet still supports 128GB cards, but not with your choice of file system (exFAT) builtin. Options : use EXT4, BTRFS, etc, or exFAT can be added by the user.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

So, by your logic, what was the stretch goal about? Did the tablet not support 128GB cards before announcing and reaching the stretch goal?

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

Didn't someone from Jolla say explicitly somewhere that the stretch goal money was specifically to pay for the Microsoft license? I can't recall where I read that, whether social media, jolla's site etc, or if that's even an accurate statement. If so, that is specifically what I think Benny and others are unhappy with, it was very specific.

And since that is how I remember it, why would I argue at the time with a bunch of FOSS culture warriors who want it changed when it seemed this is what the stretch goal was? It was stated and re-affirmed in that statement I speculated about above (i wish I could find it now to know if I'm being accurate, if I'm wrong then I can stand corrected). Point being, any statement that this 'what the community wanted' is not accurate, there may have been a silent majority like myself who thought this was all set and that you can't change the stretch goal. The question was never asked in a way to get dependable results (it was never even a question).

My only horse in this race is I don't want to see jolla become another dead product like my beloved N9 which I still haven't found a worthy successor for, simply for catering to purists and making practicality and usefulness second class. (I realize that's not why the n9 is dead).

The selective outrage here about openness when Jolla is closed in significant other areas is weird.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

No. Jolla smartphone doesn't officially support 64/128GB cards, so you can't complain if some microSDHC/XC card doesn't work (with any file system). With 128GB card in Jolla Tablet specs, you will have the right to complain if a 128GB microSDXC card can't be used (if formated to something other than exFAT, like EXT4 or BTRFS).

Remember that microSD card readers can be incompatible with newer specs & sizes :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_...#Compatibility
So Jolla is stating that the Jolla Tablet will have hardware compatible with 128GB cards.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

This is the whole point of Jolla and Linux. Only include open source in the distribution. Give users choice to install proprietary stuff if they want it and make it easy as possible.

Stop fighting for this MS standard that they bribed the SDXC standard group to include in the standard. There was no reason for them to say only MS was supported. Every vendor, including your camera manufacturers would have chose the open source solutions, instead of paying MS.

This would have forced MS to support other filesystem. They thrive by ignoring every other technology by not supporting it and choking people who whants choice. As long as people like you (edit: sorry, not you rcolistete, but people who wants MS standard) cry about supporting MS shandards, this will never change.

Linux is about choice. This is not the first time a Linux distribution taking the choice not to include proprietary made-up standards and pay for license.

Paying like $300K, just to include the technology to read the dumb exfat on an opensouce distribution is stupid. Especially for Jolla. There are many bugs and features that we really could use this $300K to fix.

Would you think MS will include a driver to read EXT2, EXT3, EXT4, BTRFS, or any other Unix filesystems in Windows, in the next 10 years?

By not including in the distribution, both people who wants exfat support and people who wants open source only can be served. If you include it, people who does not want anything to do with M$ Windows could not be served.

Jolla or community can easily come up with support for exfat. Just package it and host it on the store as an app. Call it "Support Windows Disks" or something like that so.

As long as we can make it an easy solution to install it, it should be fine for most users.

I agree with Jolla's choice 100%.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

US$300k for the exFAT licensing, or volume-based for some devices.

Re: Jolla Tablet
 

This was indicated last year while the stretch goal was active. Which is why I am trying to remember if/who said the stretch goal money would help go directly to that. Perhaps it was a forum member and not a Jolla employee.