Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Please don't make it too thin or typing will be no joy anymore... TOHKBDs keyboard part was much too thin in my opinion. I got cramps after typing some sentences...

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Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I don'T think that the TOHKBD is to thin. The problem in my opinion is, that J1 with attached TOHKBD is horrible unbalanced.

And I want a mobile device not a brick. If I need an extra bag to take it with me I will always prefer my ultrabook with a proper OS and a lot of performance.

The J1 with attached TOHKBD is already a monster. despite the fact that it isn't much thicker than the n900. But the N900 is much smaller so the thickness isn't that bad. With a much bigger device the thickness has to be reduced otherwise there is no way to put it in the pocket of your jeans. 12 mm sounds reasonable for me. A 5.5" screen device with 18 mm isn't a device I would buy.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Too thin was one problem. Top heavy was another and IMO bigger. Held together with magnet did not help either.

Each on their own would be manageable. Combined together made me give up using it.

A device designed with a keyboard would avoid at least two of the three.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yes, the whole TOHKBD was way too thick - but in my opinion, the lower part with the keypad was too thin to comfortable hold it the hands and type on it... Just my and my GFs opinion :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

same here, at the moment went back to e7 as daily phone since my brother is testing the jolla. the slider mechanism e7/ n97/ n950 is just awesome. there's no need to think further, just make it like that.

so there's what I'd want

- overall lightweight, yet the heavy part with the keboard to stand on it, the light part being the screen
- I've had it sitting on the table and just read, watch. tohkbd can't stand on it's own

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Today I got to hold a 5,5 inch phone and sadly its just to huge for my hands. One handed use is difficult and my tests suggest thumb typing will be exhausting for my fingers when reaching for keys in the middle of the keyboard often.

So I will (try too) refrain from buying the device, but I promise, I will donate about 40€ to the campaign, just because its so great that a new keyboard slider with an open OS is created.
That is, if I can hold myself back when the campaign starts, because almost everything else about the device seems to be amazing!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I don't have access to any 5.5" phone and I feel too lazy to craft a paper pattern at scale, but that was one of my concerns when Chen said that 5.5" screen allows larger keyboard and keys. It's true, but there surely is a limit to how large a comfortable thumb keyboard can be and. while I do not know if 5.5" is beyond that limit, I know that TOHKBD was already getting a bit wide, and larger is not always better (please don't quote, I did not mean any bad joke). I think I've already posted about it so I'll keep it short here (not this either).

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

As already written, I was also shocked about the 5.5" Screen. But I still hope, that the device isn't much larger than Jolla C. Looking at Chens renderings, it look's like he isn't planning a huge bezel. So making a device in the size of a Jolla C (or only a bit larger) is still possible with a 5.5" inch screen. Maybe Chen can say something about the planned final size of the phone, He already pointed out, that the phone should be around 12 mm thick, so I think he has already an idea about the over all size.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

If you've asked me a few years ago I would have dismissed buying any >4.5 inch screen phone immediately but I have got used to seeing the larger screens. The larger phones already have a significant market share and the trend is still up.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/31/ph...e-the-phuture/
I think it will depend on the overall look and thickness how it will be perceived.
On my Pandora that has a 5 inch screen with a large bezel and a lot bulkier than the chenphone will be, I don't have any problem thumb typing for long periods of time so I don't see any issue there. More important will be the weight distribution - keyboard vs screen and that seemed to be the problem with TOHKBD.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

People are also still buying tv's that take up the entire wall of their 5x5 living room en masse, even though they are all terrible (especially at such a short viewing distance). Unfortunately, it seems like to the general public, big = good, bigger = better, huge = great, and anything smaller is obviously going to be of worse quality. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any product in recent history that was released in two editions where all specifications but the size were identical, where the smaller one outsold the bigger one.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Surely iPhone 6 sold more than 6 plus?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

there's no such thing as too big TV, just too expensive one. :(
And when it comes to phones it's just a habbit (unles one has a Deadpool hand :D ). I'm used to use my "smart" devices with both hands since good old stylus and HWR days for true smart functions. After all, we all miss N900 and that was "two hands" device for basically everything except the phone function.
ATM I'm using 4.3" phone since my J1 screen is dead and I don't like it, useless for anything other than calling and texting.
And now I'm more interesting in that port for Z Play than for xperia X just because of the 5.5" screen.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Of course it is possible to have a to big TV. Watching TV from 2 m distance on a 85" is toal nonsense. Having a TV of that size in a small dark room is ugly. It's just like painting one wall black.

I have no problem using my device with two hands. But I think there has to be the possibility to use it in some situations still with one hand. And in my opinion a phone should fit in my pockets. I don't want to use a separate bag.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It certainly wouldn't have the same ergonomics as the N900 where most people could 'frame' the device with their fingers and type with thumbs. My guess is it will require a change in the way the device is held, so the fingers clamp each side of the base but don't wrap around the top of the base of the device like they do with the N900.

On the 'reaching' issue:
If the hands have been repositioned closer to the bottom of the device (for middle key access) then the actual width of the A to L key row doesn't look like a problem (normal typing of words and spaces) but the placement of the backspace key and the right hand shift could then be a stretch... ...In fact if the hands/thumbs are supposed to be positioned at the bottom of the device, then the lesser used keys Pg Up, and Pg Dn should be moved to the right-edge, and the Return key moved inwards etc. (but that would look strange).

The N900 keyboard width is actually much closer to the BlackBerry KEYone (which unfortunately has a locked bootloader).

Unfortunately my own TOHKBD wasn't great as it had unreliable keypresses, and as everyone mentioned was top heavy.

Certainly I'm sure Chen's team have tested the comfort issue already with the Moto Z version. Let's hope all the backers find a comfortable way to use this keyboard!

I would suggest reverting to the touchscreen in those situations.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Absolutely, but reaching the Top corners on a 5.5" device is really hard. Anyway, I think the decision for the 5.5" screen is already final. And we have to live with that. For me it is acceptable, as long as the device is sleek (12 mm is fine for me) and the bezels as small as possible.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I think you are missing a few use cases where single hand is needed, or at least can be used by some people.
Phone is one of those obviously, but there are a lot more. Basically everything done on the go while walking can fit in the single hand usage. There are a lot of time when you need using your phone while having a bag or a child in your arm. Checking GPS for an address, quick sms or mail answer on the virtual keyboard, taking a photo of something you handle, changing bluetooth settings for your earpiece...
And it can be quite hard on bigger screens (for some people at least) to reach comfortably the flash or exposure settings of the camera app, to active the gps in the events' pulley menu, or simply to pick the contact at the top of the list to make a call. That is something where the UI should help, but even Sailfish is not enough on some points.


PS: this post is only to add details to the screen size subject, not to expect Chen to change the specs which must be set by the time.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Absolutely, 5.5 inch 16:9 display implies 122mm display length. Allowing 10mm to 15mm each side for the bezel implies between 142mm to 152mm device length unless they can achieve great feats with the top and bottom bezel size.

Yes it is true that size is less universally comfortable, therefore repositioning the device one-handed could result in dropping the phone. EDIT: Actually regardless of hand 'length' I completely see your concern is correct.

Just one more crazy request from me:

Chen, please include the possibility in the Indiegogo campaign to pay extra for a Sailfish logo on the back of the device instead of the Livermorium logo. The idea being when people see this sleek device, to 'promote' investigation into Sailfish OS. You could still use the Livermorium logo but much smaller on the device.

Ideally, the SailfishOS.org website should have an "approved devices" page, which would connect-up the public awareness strategy better, and given that Jolla seems to have shifted to become 'software vendor/integrator' then that "approved devices" page might be soon on the horizon.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

What about a notification LED? I find it a very important feature and can't imagine myself using a phone without it.

Anyway, I really like the idea and I'm really likely to buy it :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, While I agree with you small tvs and small devices usually dont have the latest hardware. So in a way its true. Bigger is better ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Size does not matter... Just how you use it...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

In space is matters.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

You're totally right, looks like iPhone useds still have some sense to them!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, 6s plus have superior cam, possibly split screen for mail?. So size matters when it comes to iPhone.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Funilly :

- I first started using PDAs long before using smartphones (my first : Palm IIIc, then Palm Tungsten T3)
A 120-140mm long device is pretty normal by my experience.

- I happen to have giant (and dextrous) hands: I can actually operate such a touch screen single handed.
I was even able to thumb-time on Psion Series 5 (170mm long devices) (and which, by the way, also used offset key rows, but in my limited experience had very good keyboard switches quality).

My point : I understand that this upcoming phone needs to be optimised for all users.
But I hope that during these optimisation, single hand touch, and thumb typing won't get lost.

and for that, practice is king (I never said I was *born* dextrous).

Bring in the volunteers ! (New best pick-up line: "Darling, you're critically important for my practice!")

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

That's a great project.

I am very intrigued by this device, I hope it can replace my BlackBerry Passport when it's time.

I was wondering if it would be possible to choose one the successors of the Snapdragon 625 instead of it, like the 626 or 630 ? Would it costs a lot more ? This would help the Livermorium to be more future proof.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Maybe he was holding it wrong?

(Sorry, I know it's a bad joke, but couldn't resist. :P )

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Chenliangchen, do you have any idea when this phone will be available?
Anyway, i want one!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Today I tried TheKit's build of SFOS for Moto Z Play. It's actually manageable and I have average hand. Don't get scared of a 5.5 inch. ;)

(Thickness also affect one hand operation)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Aiming towards end of the year. :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Really? I think that it will take about almost one year.. And when HW is ready you must start porting SFOS? For example Xperia X port is not ready after 6 months.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I meant Hardware development and manufacturering.

OS and how and when to deliver will be a separate discussion. And progress not controlled by us.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

So if Santa planning to deliver a qwerty slider this year. When do you think campaign will appear? September?

Think it Will be tricky to deliver before end of year but it would be cool.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Where oh where have I heard that before...? For the life of me I cannot remember. :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Wasn't that end of year 2 years ago?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

For the lulz, it's ok to strike the penalty shot, i know :D
But please all remember that it is quite unfair to intermingle chen with any other projects or track records.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

And it's "aiming", not "guaranteed".

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Hey you say that you want to support anyone want to port another os to this device... Have you ever considered to contact the Ubports or plasma mobile communities (both have a group on Telegram)? They are very active and if you support them I reckon that they will be able to port that OSes to this device.
There is also PostmarketOS that is promising, even if at the very early stage...
Other than that is an utopia to have a port like the one on the moto mod, maybe since you want to keep the same size of the motomod have some sort of similar (and maybe compatible) port, to use theyr mods?

I am dreaming to have finally an hacker friendly device, the only downside for me is the dimensions, 5.5 is way too big unfortunately. I reckon that the perfect size is 5, anyway I cannot expect too much!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

But then how would you type Ć?

On my desktop Ç is shift-alt-comma. Arguably it should be dead-comma, C.

But anyway, that's all just keyboard mapping boringness -- any decent input system (or even X!) lets you define pretty much any rule you can imagine.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Oh yes there is. A TV is too big if it doesn't fit into the space you have for it.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Maybe your space is too small...