Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

First of all, thank you for your answer!

Yes, this is how I see it working. It may be slightly inefficient but it is the only reliable method.

Yes, and that is the part that does not work when two devices with different app sets share the same account.

No, that was not what I meant. I do realize the information leakage problem which is why I was not considering that scenario. I was assuming the "give me the full list with versions and I will choose" case. Yes, there is a potential for a performance hit as seen on e.g. the N900 but that can be alleviated.

Debian based systems are plagued by the fact that each time the catalogues are refreshed, the whole shebang with the dependencies is transferred (up to about 10MB per repository in Maemo's case) and parsed. One way to reduce that is to split it in two parts: 1) names and versions, 2) dependencies. That way, the difficult part (parsing the dependencies) would be done only for the specific package the user selects for installation or upgrade and only when he choses to do so.

Please note that there is still an information leakage ("Johny is installing package X"), but only to the repository that provides that package and that is unavoidable anyway.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

It does work, it's just not working at optimal efficiency. It says: "please give me a list of all my installed packages in the virtual repository", and then, locally, discards the ones that don't apply.

You're right of course that with effort, it's possible to do this in any number of different ways, but looking at the large amount of things already on the plate, I question if this is something important enough to spend effort on.

Yup, you implicitly trust your repository provider. If you don't, you might want to reconsider, considering you're installing software directly from them. The thing is what you trust them with, of course, which is a bit of a different thing :)

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Thanks w00t, that paragraph has finally answered the question for me.
I am completely satisfied.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

If app is bound to the device, then the device needs to be identified somehow. If you buy an app, you need to pay it somehow, which in online world means you'll need to disclose certain information about yourself, which then can be easily identify you being the one using or paying for software used in that device.

Perhaps. However, knowing how hopeless it's to educate average people handling backups, I do think it would be quite a bit safer to store such data in some central server in Helsinki. Of course it would be nice if backup-set contained also list of software installed on device, in certain situations it would be quite effective.

I didn't suggest that installing them to all devices were compulsory. I said that I'd like to have a list of my purchased and/or installed apps, from which I can choose which ones I want to install on my other/new device. This can be done manually, searching and installing all apps one by one, but it's more time consuming and can be made more streamlined.
.
If developer wants to use different kind of licensing, he could do it even in scenario I mentioned. It's technically possible to even integrate such functionality to store that if such licensing is used, it would prompt for buying a new license on install.

Every single thing in software world has caveats. Especially when human beings are involved.

Convenience is utterly critical if the platform is to make any kind of market penetration. For this reason, anything that hinders convenience and ease of use has to have very strong reasons behind them. That has been my point all along. Usability and convenience should never be sacrificed for ideological reason, especially in consumer space. But if such approach is too bold or outright evil, then I guess I'm not geek enough. :) Anyway, w00t explained things better than me, so for now this will be my last take on this.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

An app is bound to the device implicitly, simply by being on it. And no, the device does not need to be identified. That was the whole point. The device is the driver of the installation/update, not the Store. (As it turns out, it is the combination of both. I cannot say I prefer that solution but at least it provides the answer.)

We don't know anything about purchased apps yet as there is no such support. But my case with two Jollas in the family sharing the same account shows that the streamlining you mention above does not work. At least not at the moment.

And therein I believe lies the crux of the whole thing. It is so common to bring up ideological issues to every discussion about anything even remotely connected to "Linux" and "open source" that people tend to automatically assume that every discussion is about ideological issues. I tried to convey all the time that I had technical reasons in mind, not ideological.

I know this is not the common way in the modern world but my approach to any problem is, "take as little as you need", as opposed to "take as much as you can get." That applies to buffer sizes as well as how much to pack on a holiday and... how much the central repository needs to know about each client.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Hm. Well. Not sure if I can agree on that. Ideology, if there is one, should come before usability and convenience. But I suppose that in itself is already an ideology.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

That's why I said how I'd prefer it to be when I receive my Jolla Tablet. :)

Maybe I should actually make a suggestion at TJC....

That may be because in Linux and Open Source world there are awful lot of ideological things. Just look at the discussion about SDXC-support in Jolla Tablet. I can hardly see any technical reason to implement the store otherwise (like performance, reliability, end user experience...) - if only motivation to do it would be like "I don't want them to know this and that or anything at all", I do count it being an ideological reason, not technical. If something makes things more difficult for end user, there has to be very concrete and strong reasons for doing it because every unnecessary snag average user hits will have negative impact on adoption rate and reputation of the platform, which are extremely critical for it to survive in the long run.

Requiring username (which by itself does not identify person behind it in any way) and password is IMO quite far from "take as much as you can get."

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Let me repeat my question (as it may got lost).

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

That's the scary bit. People are so used to the Apple way that they can't even imagine anything else. The technical innovation stopped in 2007.

True but it is just as far from "take as little as you have to", since "as little as you have to" can be absolutely nothing. Nada. Zilch. As w00t admitted, the current way was just one of possible ways of implementing it. Perhaps not the best but good enough. And now it's too late and not enough reason to change it. I fully agree with that.

The phone says the info stays private and I have no reason to apriori assume otherwise. I would imagine its primary purpose is to identify your phone in case of getting lost or stolen but I would also like to know where the info is stored.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Or, no one has been able to convince people that there is a better way to do it. It it ain't broken, don't fix it. :)

Yes. If you are willing to accept the limitations of that model.

AFAIK it's stored in the device only (at least that what it says in that screen), but it can also be skipped if one doesn't want to save such information to the device. No idea which file or db it's stored in though...

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

I hope someone can help me out... I have completely lost mobile data on my Jolla and can't also make phone calls, but I'm able to receive them. Mobile network indicator is greyed like there is no signal. Wifi is working.

What I need help for is that I don't want to reboot my phone until everything possible has been done.

Things I've already tried:

-restarted network from utilies
-restarted lipstick from terminal
-removed sim card and put back in
-fiddled with mobile network in settings

Any recommendations what I could try until I need to reboot?
Thanks.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

enable, disable flight mode?

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

systemctl restart ofono ?

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

That did it! Thank you.

edit: actually I had to restart network connections again from utility to be able to call again. The above command got back my mobile data and signal strength.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Orly? :)
Good to know. Was more of less a shot in the dark (based on my N9/N9x0 experiences) as my Jolla has not seen a SIM (yet).

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Ooooh just bought a Jolla branded lastu case for £4 off ebay :)

I have noticed one annoying thing with the browser though... When logging in to paypal, the browser UI asks if I want to remember my password, with a save or cancel option. As a rule I do not save personal pw's on devices so swiping to cancel kicks me out of the page. Bit crap but never mind.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Good rule.

Browser does other weird stuff.
The random link following is still there. And more.

When I click into a text field (to open up the vkb) it drops me away from that page to any other site I visited before.
Pressing enter on TMO power search refreshes the page and input in search field is gone (need to touch button).

I would call it beta (if I want to express nice).

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

I think the browser is already really good. The biggest problems I have with it are nowdays mere annoyances like;

- I don't like that when I click a link in another application like mail it opens in the topmost tab (even when the browser is not running), instead it should open in a new tab.
- The tabs reload and reposition when I go back and forward in history.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

So I just saw some videos of the upcoming Ubuntu phone.

Even though I think the UI is a big mess and the lack of multitasking is just a cherry on top, what I like is the focus on content. I wonder why Jolla has not been focusing on this more as well, because when you look at the repositories, it looks like quite a low hanging fruit.

Searching for grilo plugins in Jolla reveals support for these services out of the box:

• Apple Trailers
• Blip TV
• Flickr
• Gravatar
• Jamendo
• Last FM
• Magnatune
• Podcasts
• Rai.tv
• Shoutcast
• Vimeo
• Youtube

Quite a nice collection if you ask me (and thumbs up for making them very easy to use through the grilo qml plugin) - all it takes is some UI integration.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

It looks like Jolla plans to limit the number of cover actions to only one in Sailfish 2.0, at least for default applications (see this commit).

I personally use both cover actions very often (especially in the web browser) and consider it one of the best features of Sailfish OS.

I think that this issue deserves some visibility, so if you share this view, please vote here:
https://together.jolla.com/question/...sailfishos-20/

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Seems pointless limitation, i wonder what is the reasoning behind this change. I, too, am often using all available cover actions of an app, two in case of quasarmx, for example.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

And, in what turns out to have been a self-destructive attempt to remove all my karma, I've gone ahead and taken the opposite point of view -- that Jolla should go ahead and start walking back from the concept of integrating widget functionality and app management into a single interface.

I don't personally use a lot of widgets on my N900 or my Android, but I do understand the value of having a small, highly-available interface to a frequently-used bit of functionality. I also highly appreciate the ability to see what apps are running in the background, and easily manage them. And yes, I do like keeping these two tasks separate; there are only a very few apps I want to control as widgets, so I see no need to try and give widget controls to every single app. Moreover, forcing those apps to constrain their interface to just two switches is quite limiting.

So yeah, I would like to see full widget functionality in Sailfish, and see no need to try and force that kind of functionality into the running apps screen. And yeah, that means you can go ahead and vote my answer down at that TJC question. ;)

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Was mine the only upvote, then? ;)

Widgets are supposed to be "outdated", but you can see a lot of demand for them even on such a "progressive" OS as Sailfish (MeeCast and Media Controls to name just two most popular ones).
I also happen to find the Sailfish cover controls rather confusing and non-intuitive so I do not use them but I believe that is something that a bit of practice could sort out.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Actually, the karma system there is kind of odd; I looked at that little graph they give you, and while it now records more than two dozen downvotes (subtracting 10 points for each), there are an odd set of upvotes -- one for 2 points, one for 10 points, and one for 15 points. However, the overall Karma score has changed by a value divisible by 10, so I can only assume that there's something wrong with this list.

So really, I have no clue how many up/down votes there have been. So far, though, the vote total rests at -23. :) (Edit: and still dropping...)

It'll be interesting to see if I get completely booted off the system for advocating widgets. :D

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Utterly stupid. I used to use the media controls a lot to skip tracks. They seem to have ditched that for play/pause. Also refreshing mail though maybe less important if they fix IMAP IDLE.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

What kind of solution do you use to play music on your Jolla phone? Is there a Android player that does work? I know I can use native players but they're buggy or lacking many features that I need. Many Android apps do have the features I need but I can't get them to work.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

There are so many native players, I don't see the need for an Android one...

I am seriously wondering which features you are missing (for example) in Quasar MX:
https://www.meteorasoftworks.com/

PS: I personally use CuteSpot, the default Media Player and Jam ;) I am currently (unwillingly) back on the N900, but the music player situation on Jolla was sufficient at the very least.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

I'd like a player which support load folders recursively and not needing the **** tracker, and remember the playlist and it's position when I close and reopen it.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

There are a number of annoying things with that player. Quasar MX cannot read disc number tags so you have to switch to sort by location if you want to listen to albums with multiple disc so they're properly sorted, it doesn't pause automatically when you recieve calls or any other audible notification, you cannot queue music and there are some weird bugs that causes the music to be sorted wrongly. The default media play is even worse :) So I thought I could use Poweramp or a simliar player but they won't work properly.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Thanks for the thorough description - it would be good to send it to the developer, I believe he would appreciate the feedback.

I don't use Quasar MX myself, but it seemed to me it has pretty much every possible feature it can have (much more than I needed). I am not a fan of the default player either, but I use CuteSpot most of the time anyways, so it's enough for occasional use.

EDIT: I sent the link to this discussion to the developer, so I hope he will read it.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

I've sent bug reports to the dev previously but never got a reply. I hope the app hasn't been abandoned, been a really long time since the last update :(

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Since the latest update, do Android apps no longer have access to the SD card?

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Are there any native .RAR / .zip extractor apps for Sailfish? Currently using an Android one, not ideal.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Lastly, every some days I can click in all places of Sailfish UI, except inside apps so I can open apps but cannot click anywhere inside their UI. Reboot solves it for about 2 days. Anyone have the same problem or an idea of how to solve/trace it?

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Never had anything like that. Does restarting lipstick help?

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

@juiceme,
How exactly would you want to do that if taps did not work? ;)

@malkavian,
I've had something similar a number of times, always caused by the invisible keyboard bug. Once it happened, the OS-wide gestures (swiping from edges of the screen) continued working but swipes or taps inside the screen did not. The only way out was a reboot (I suppose SSH from another machine and killing maliit would have worked too but a reboot was simpler, especially if I was nowhere near another machine).

Not sure if that is the same problem though.

@Vertu,
'unrar' and 'unzip' work fine in the terminal. For those of a more GUI-esque persuasion, you can use Unrar & Unzip extractor by Schturman. It is nothing but a UI shell (well, sort of) for unrar and unzip and works only in the Downloads folder but it does the job.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Thanks @pichlo, I think that that could me my problem too. Good answer for @juiceme by the way XD

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

Like I always do it, ssh to the device. I use WLAN but of course you can do it via USB too if you have it set to development mode connection. (which is the only useful mode anyway... :D)

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

I thought I'd come back here to report on the battery usage. After some users reported 20-30% drain a day, others claimed that 3G or 4G drains the battery faster and others still suggested to turn off GPS, here is the result of my tests running continuously for the past three months:

• My battery lasts 24 to 48 hours on average.
• 3G or GPS have a negligible effect. I do not care if the phone lasts 24 or 25 hours between charges; if the difference is so small, I can as well leave everthing on all the time.
• The only thing that makes any difference at all is my usage pattern. If I leave it on standby, it can last up to 5 days. If I use it, it lasts about a day. 2 hours browsing equals about 2 days on the shelf.

A very representative example as of last Saturday. The configuration (what is on, what is off and what is not installed at all) as per this post. All times are approximate to the nearest 10 minutes:

• 06:50... 100%. Taken off the charger. Spent about 20 minutes browsing, then put in the pocket and took the kids out.
• 08:30... 84%. Just remembered to check the battery level.
• 10:00... 74%. Started using it again to make pictures. Took 12 pictures and 4 short videos. Did not shut the camera app, just locked the phone with the power button and put it back in the pocket. Forgot to check the battery level at the end.
• 14:50... 17%. I noticed the pocket was suspiciously hot. It was the phone. With the camera app stil on standby. I shut the camera app.
• 18:20... 11%. We gradually made our way home. Plugged the phone in the charger.
• 20:00... 100%. Went to run the bath for the kids. Spent about 10 minutes browsing while running the bath.
• 20:10... 94%.

With the exception of the camera app running and nearly melting the phone, this is pretty much the common pattern. 3G or GPS makes no discernable difference, but each minute of browsing costs about 0.5% of the battery charge.

Meanwhile my wife's Jolla, sitting unused on the shelf, needs a recharge about once in a fortnight.

The only conclusion I can make from this is that those who claim less than 30% drain a day can achieve that only by keeping it standby all the time and not actively using it at all.

Re: Jolla User Experience Thread
 

This easter some friends traveled and created a whatsapp group for the travel. They send near no messages to the usual group. Usually they send 100 messages a day, 200 on weekends.

I use Mitakuuluu and these days, (plus more peace) my battery gone from consuming near 50% a day to 35% a day. I suppose that the cause is having it much more time in standby.