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-   -   Jolla Tablet Refunds (latest developments) (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94393)

r0kk3rz 2016-01-01 14:05
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1493151)
Wasn't it about 1000? ISTR two lots, one of about 80 units an another one of 1000. Minus those already sold.
Number speculation aside, from the schedule that we saw...

https://cdn-blog.jolla.com/wp-conten...ule_image.jpeg

It would seem that the 2nd wave was going to be final pre-production for 32gb tablets, and of approximate size to the first wave.

We were already told that the december wave was going to be pushed back to an unknown timeslot so it stands to reason that batch was never manufactured.

Dave999 2016-01-01 14:05
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard of Huz (Post 1493154)
I would like to email the CEO of Jolla with a business proposal . Does anyone here have his email address?
I don't think jolla has announced an new CEO offically. But I would suggest to send a message via twitter to Antti since they like to communicate via twitter.

https://twitter.com/anttisaarnio

itdoesntmatt 2016-01-01 14:49
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
or contact them through the sailfishos.org website

https://sailfishos.org/partners/

nthn 2016-01-01 16:15
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493070)
It's not they same thing.

We have been over this atleast 245 times but why not take it one more time.

1. Jolla is an entity with a already in product in market.
2. jolla had around 200 employees, with there own webshop.
3. jolla sold the idea of a tablet.
4. jolla used stretch goals to give extra money.
5. jolla sold the tablet in their web shop.

given these points + the fact that jolla focued more on the OS rather then finish the tablet makes it close to a scam and jolla can hide behind the word Crowdfunding. But in reality its a fraud, scam, trick or ... or what every you like to call. Sure we invested and I dont really expect the money back but I will always hold it against jolla and the Management behind it.
I didn't say anything about the tablets being sold in the shop, anyone who ordered those should be refunded (or in fact they should be the first and if necessary only people to receive the actual device) as they actually ordered a product from a shop which they didn't receive. The people who sent money through Indiegogo did just that, send money. They did not buy a product, ever. Whether Jolla already had a product on the market before the campaign started makes no difference because they did not sell a product in the campaign, they asked for money to help make a tablet and IF they were successful in doing so, you would receive a tablet, of which the specifications would have depended on the amount of money you donated. They weren't successful, so nobody gets a tablet.

In fact, what is the point behind almost anything you said? What does it matter whether they had 'stretch goals' or not? Look, here are my points which clearly show why absolutely no wrong has been done:

1. the tablet is black
2. 'jolla' is Finnish for some kind of small boat
3. it was a campaign on Indiegogo and not on Kickstarter
4. Jolla now has less employees than it did before the campaign
5. it was rainy today in some parts of the world

If any of you (excluding those who paid for a tablet through the shop) actually had a case (that the campaign was a scam or whatever), you could and would sue Jolla to get your money back. But you don't, so you won't.

rcolistete 2016-01-01 16:20
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1493101)
This is yet another demonstration of the deep misunderstanding some people have. How many times does this have to be repeated? The tablet and the phone run the same OS! Sure there are two different builds for two different CPU architectures but that is no big job for an automated build (Jolla does use those, right?). The only extra effort is testing on different screen sizes but since there are only two and they want to support OEM devices, they will have to run those anyway.
A comment totally disconnected from the reality. Hardware adaptation is not simple at all, even with the Jolla HADK the Sailfish OS porting community take months to have Sailfish OS working more or less (without all the components working).

Please do a favour. Contribute to any of these Sailfish OS porting projects and learn a lot more.

Dave999 2016-01-01 16:28
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nthn (Post 1493168)
I didn't say anything about the tablets being sold in the shop, anyone who ordered those should be refunded (or in fact they should be the first and if necessary only people to receive the actual device) as they actually ordered a product from a shop which they didn't receive. The people who sent money through Indiegogo did just that, send money. They did not buy a product, ever. Whether Jolla already had a product on the market before the campaign started makes no difference because they did not sell a product in the campaign, they asked for money to help make a tablet and IF they were successful in doing so, you would receive a tablet, of which the specifications would have depended on the amount of money you donated. They weren't successful, so nobody gets a tablet.

In fact, what is the point behind almost anything you said? What does it matter whether they had 'stretch goals' or not? Look, here are my points which clearly show why absolutely no wrong has been done:

1. the tablet is black
2. 'jolla' is Finnish for some kind of small boat
3. it was a campaign on Indiegogo and not on Kickstarter
4. Jolla now has less employees than it did before the campaign
5. it was rainy today in some parts of the world

If any of you (excluding those who paid for a tablet through the shop) actually had a case (that the campaign was a scam or whatever), you could and would sue Jolla to get your money back. But you don't, so you won't.
I'm not looking to sue anyone. I'm looking for a proper business model from jolla, that could help them for the next product, not drag any future product to the bottom before its even announced.

Ok, I play along. Let's say jolla skip tablet and move on with the money like if its was a gift. Do you think that "some of us" are likely to buy/help/fund/support jolla under current situation?

r0kk3rz 2016-01-01 16:56
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nthn (Post 1493168)
... anyone who ordered those should be refunded (or in fact they should be the first and if necessary only people to receive the actual device) as they actually ordered a product from a shop which they didn't receive. ...
As a webshopper, I wondered if this was going to be the case for that very reason, but it seems to be that the IGG backers are getting first preference and the only way to get a refund is to invoke a PayPal dispute.

Which is a fairly poor effort by Jolla really, I shouldn't have to go begging for a refund or have PayPal strong arm them if they have no intention of delivering what I had pre-ordered. I'm curious as to what the compensation is going to be but at the same time I pre-ordered a Sailfish Tablet not an Intex Phone or whatever else they may offer.

billranton 2016-01-01 17:04
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcolistete (Post 1493170)
A comment totally disconnected from the reality. Hardware adaptation is not simple at all, even with the Jolla HADK the Sailfish OS porting community take months to have Sailfish OS working more or less (without all the components working).

Please do a favour. Contribute to any of these Sailfish OS porting projects and learn a lot more.
The hw adaptation for the tablet has already been done. They don't change much.

szopin 2016-01-01 17:43
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1493179)
The hw adaptation for the tablet has already been done. They don't change much.
hw adaptation for jolla1 was theoretically done 2 years ago, posts about random shutdowns stopped a couple of months ago, maybe intel socs are better, but if they had to support 200 devices with similar bugs, hope second batch is bigger anyway (also gives reason for developers to recompile), but hw/arch specific code is not a done deal (see special tweaks for recompiling on arm for maemo)

billranton 2016-01-01 18:30
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1493181)
hw adaptation for jolla1 was theoretically done 2 years ago, posts about random shutdowns stopped a couple of months ago, maybe intel socs are better, but if they had to support 200 devices with similar bugs, hope second batch is bigger anyway (also gives reason for developers to recompile), but hw/arch specific code is not a done deal (see special tweaks for recompiling on arm for maemo)
I don't see many problems on the tablet now. The minimum display brightness could be dimmer, and it sometimes sucks its battery on standby, though that may be arch rather than the tablet hw specifically. For sure it's going to get really interesting if they manage to expand the range of hw they run on. They've always supported x86 though, and I can't see that stopping. Atom on mobile is on the rise.

peterleinchen 2016-01-01 18:40
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard of Huz (Post 1493154)
I would like to email the CEO of Jolla with a business proposal . Does anyone here have his email address?
Not sure if Antti Saarnio is announced as CEO but the best known address,
just use prename.surname@jolla.com

But I guess the best answer you may get is:
Thanks for your valuable input. We will read it and get back to you,
...
...
...
SOON.

szopin 2016-01-01 18:40
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1493187)
I don't see many problems on the tablet now. The minimum display brightness could be dimmer, and it sometimes sucks its battery on standby, though that may be arch rather than the tablet hw specifically. For sure it's going to get really interesting if they manage to expand the range of hw they run on. They've always supported x86 though, and I can't see that stopping. Atom on mobile is on the rise.
Glad to hear as still hoping to get one, still, tablet hw will have its own bugs (audio, video, input...) and hw specifc workarounds, if they drop support for this configuration (only 200 out there aftet all) and arch it is back to community to support that. HW adaptation done on day one is like expecting no bug fixes from the creator once the mass finds them

rob_kouw 2016-01-01 19:02
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Well, I must say I'm not too impressed with the way Jolla handled the money and the third party accessories. Through Indiegogo I paid money to Jolla Asia Ltd, not to Jolla Oy. First for the tablet only, then for the shipping, and then for a LastuCase.

For some reason the money seems to have been mingled with general funds of Jolla Oy, no reservations have been made (or so it seems) to pay manufacturers, shippers, and Lastu. Through Twitter Lastu said they delivered a whole stack of cases to Jolla, and didn't get paid.

Now on one hand I understand: employees had to be paid, and the next round of finance was near. But on the other hand I don't understand... I have run several businesses over the years, and one of my business partners suddenly went bankrupt in 2012. They nearly dragged us down as well. This is all a different story of course, but there's an ethical part to doing business with partners.

Their values Transparency, Love, Passion, Respect should have urged Jolla to give openness much, much sooner.

juiceme 2016-01-01 21:34
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493173)
I'm not looking to sue anyone. I'm looking for a proper business model from jolla, that could help them for the next product, not drag any future product to the bottom before its even announced.

Ok, I play along. Let's say jolla skip tablet and move on with the money like if its was a gift. Do you think that "some of us" are likely to buy/help/fund/support jolla under current situation?
Some surely will, no doubt about it.
I know that if presented with a good story I will buy it, no problem.

As I see it, the tablet campaign went through correctly, and I donated to it fair and square, and as is the case with such donations, promptly wrote it off my budget when done. Such is the nature of donations, whether given for fun, for charities or for churchs.

peterleinchen 2016-01-01 21:52
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceme (Post 1493222)
Some surely will, no doubt about it.
I know that if presented with a good story I will buy it, no problem.

As I see it, the tablet campaign went through correctly, and I donated to it fair and square, and as is the case with such donations, promptly wrote it off my budget when done. Such is the nature of donations, whether given for fun, for charities or for churchs.
As much as I appreciate above, I disagree.
We have no info where the money went and what were the reasons and and and we will never ever get that.
So in my eyes if Jolla as a company wants to continue/succeed they need to deliver/refund.

I personally wrote off the money as I do not expect them to act like I think they should act! End of input.

--edit
Do you really think it is a good reputation for a company?
Is it fair to have not payed Lastu?
To consume the 'donated' money for Lastu cases as well as for shipping (and also 64GB upgrade)? (not sure if that would really count as donations!)
and so on ...

bob_bipbip 2016-01-01 21:56
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
quite funny how some people have been criticized after asking refund. with the excuse "IT'S A DONATION !!111!!111 JOLLA DON'T OWE YOU SH*", after 1 year without product delivery, even after received more than what have been asked, well, after a refund, we can call it A 0% PERCENT LOAN.
YES, a LOAN. so after all, they donated something, as banks don't borrow money for free :p

juiceme 2016-01-01 22:08
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
I am not critizising anyone, just explaining my point-of-view. Yours might be different, and I hope it makes you happy :)

Sure there might be people to whom few hundred quid is such a large sum it makes a visible dent in their budget... to whom I might offer an advice on not to engage into donation campaigns, then...
It is like any high-risk venture, do not put in what you do not afford to lose with a smile...

It is another thing alltogether that the Jolla Tablet was also for sale on their website; whoever ordered it from there should get refund unless the devices are delivered as that was a sale and not a donation.

And regarding what we get from it; we have already gotten more than a years worth of speculation and humour, I count that a gain, being part of an expecting crowd :D

Dave999 2016-01-01 22:19
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/7/...89/3519678.jpg

juiceme 2016-01-01 22:28
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493233)
https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/7/005/08b/389/3519678.jpg
Very good advice, but I tend to be the one who forgets it all the time :p
To put that into perspective, these device monies are peanuts. Over the last 2 years I have lost considerable pile of money due to bad stock market investments...

Dave999 2016-01-01 22:34
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceme (Post 1493237)
Very good advice, but I tend to be the one who forgets it all the time :p
To put that into perspective, these device monies are peanuts. Over the last 2 years I have lost considerable pile of money due to bad stock market investments...
Yeah, same here...But lucky I've earned more. But personally its more of a trust issue with jolla. Don't trust Finnish people anymore ;)

juiceme 2016-01-01 22:41
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493238)
Don't trust Finnish people anymore ;)
Tell me about it... I had just short of eight grand invested in a mining company in north-of-finland, and it went bankrupt.
Trading was suspended and the stocks annulled. bummer.

Dave999 2016-01-01 22:45
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceme (Post 1493242)
Tell me about it... I had just short of eight grand invested in a mining company in north-of-finland, and it went bankrupt.
Trading was suspended and the stocks annulled. bummer.
Canadian owned (North American Gold Inc)Northland? or
Talvivaara? Both went south last year...You need to lose to win since we learn from mistakes.

So what have we learned by backing Jolla?

peterleinchen 2016-01-02 11:23
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Please see my edit:

Quote:
Do you really think it is a good reputation for a company?
Is it fair to have not payed Lastu?
To consume the 'donated' money for Lastu cases as well as for shipping (and also 64GB upgrade)? (not sure if that would really count as donations!)
and so on ...

--furthermore
I wondered why we do not have the tag "TabletGate"?
So I went to add it but was not allowed as maximum number of tags exceeded and I am not allowed to edit existing.
So I'd like to ask any tag creator to change his tag as I think that matches best.

olighak 2016-01-02 11:27
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493244)
Canadian owned (North American Gold Inc)Northland? or
Talvivaara? Both went south last year...You need to lose to win since we learn from mistakes.

So what have we learned by backing Jolla?
Yep, Indiegogo campaigns are bullocks, and that one should not do any further dealings with Jolla, or any company recruiting its employees, current or former.

mosen 2016-01-02 12:05
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterleinchen (Post 1493298)
I wondered why we do not have the tag "TabletGate"?
Well it would finally fit to rename the whole thread to "TabletGate" after New Years annoucement imho. @Dave999?

Whatever the compensation might be, i do not expect it to be a Tablet anymore and honestly, if asked whether to opt in for additional ~200€ to acquire a Intex whateverfish Device, i would happily do with both of my contributions.

Dave999 2016-01-02 14:54
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
I was trying to change the title to: TabletGate 2016

Unfortunately there is a limit of number of name changes or some mod ****ed up the thread badly. I guess we will never know the truth.

salamisami 2016-01-02 15:29
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
i havent really followed the whole tablet campaign or anything, but cant you just ask for refund? or will they ship tablets after 2016 finally? doesnt sound legal to just accept money and give nothing back

peterleinchen 2016-01-02 15:51
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493315)
I was trying to change the title to: TabletGate 2016

Unfortunately there is a limit of number of name changes or some mod ****ed up the thread badly. I guess we will never know the truth.
Fortunately this mystery can be solved:
you are only allowed to edit a thread's title for a specified amount of times (or a speficied date after thread creation, I always forget which one).
So now you need to ask politely to have this thread renamed by a moderator (e.g. by reporting your first post or PM).

ZogG 2016-01-02 16:16
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
«We might even have some positive surprises in stock for you. But more on that will follow, feel free to speculate!»
Lol, what? In other words "We screw you, but you'll get free candy. Wanna talk about it?"

Btw, I wonder would it be surprise like with special edition Jolla Phone for first wave, that became special TOH, that was just special colour and ringtone, which was sold at shop after all :) Or would be this surprise like promised opensourcing few years back?
I think if they fail on their promises so much, they need to do more than a "surprise" and moreover asking for people to be positive and speculate. :)

Dave999 2016-01-02 16:26
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterleinchen (Post 1493322)
Fortunately this mystery can be solved:
you are only allowed to edit a thread's title for a specified amount of times (or a speficied date after thread creation, I always forget which one).
So now you need to ask politely to have this thread renamed by a moderator (e.g. by reporting your first post or PM).
Ok, thx.
I try to stay away from the mod/admin or you will be shoot in the back ;)
Tread title is fine :D

meemorph 2016-01-02 16:33
IGG backers are the loosers in this story, that Jolla wrote. We are the sixth in the crew (Galaxy Quest). Jolla is a startup and earned many prizes for that tablet. You can check it at IGG.

Why should they ship this beautyful masterpiece of hard- and software to loosers, like you and me?

Happy new year and remember: a fool with a tablet is still a fool. ;-)

prometheus 2016-01-02 16:36
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1493061)
Intex phone, or tablet from some other manufacturer with SailfishOS or with Android+Sailfish launcher? Or a voucher to buy some brand's products from web shop?
Hell NO! A full refund. Those who are willing to take another device or they ridiculous option is totally up to them, but for me, only a refund is an option.

att 2016-01-02 16:37
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493244)
Canadian owned (North American Gold Inc)Northland? or
Talvivaara? Both went south last year...You need to lose to win since we learn from mistakes.

So what have we learned by backing Jolla?
Now I know what the surprise will be: they will give some shares of Jolla Ltd to the tablet backers ;)

gerbick 2016-01-02 17:06
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1493328)
Now I know what the surprise will be: they will give some shares of Jolla Ltd to the tablet backers ;)
no thanks.

Dave999 2016-01-02 17:15
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1493332)
no thanks.
You can be Chairman and captain of the ship! :D

What I find strange is that jolla suddenly found a few tablets to ship out of the blue. Why didn't they ship them before I wonder...

marxian 2016-01-02 17:16
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemorph (Post 1493326)
IGG backers are the loosers in this story, that Jolla wrote. We are the sixth in the crew (Galaxy Quest). Jolla is a startup and earned many prizes for that tablet. You can check it at IGG.

Why should they ship this beautyful masterpiece of hard- and software to loosers, like you and me?

Happy new year and remember: a fool with a tablet is still a fool. ;-)
By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged.

att 2016-01-02 17:22
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1493335)
What I find strange is that jolla suddenly found a few tablets to ship out of the blue. Why didn't they ship them before I wonder...
Jolla couldn't pay those already produced tablets so the manufacturer wouldn't ship them to Jolla.

nokiabot 2016-01-02 18:35
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
this tablet will write history.

handaxe 2016-01-02 19:39
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by att (Post 1493328)
Now I know what the surprise will be: they will give some shares of Jolla Ltd to the tablet backers ;)
Yup, "a surprise in stock" was what was written....

Android_808 2016-01-02 19:56
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
As they've done all the work, I'd hate to see it go to waste. Obviously for the IGG supporters, their problem needs to be resolved in some way by Jolla themselves.

For those not part of the current order backlog, why can't the just go to Intex or someone and say here's a device, here's the plans, there's the software so lets come up with a deal. License the OS to them for use on that device and create a revenue stream. Anyone who takes them up on it is pretty much getting free R&D for a product ready to go straight into production. You could even come to an arrangement over reduced fees for anyone who was part of the IGG campaign.


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