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-   -   Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82014)

marxian 2012-02-08 16:38
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimon (Post 1162229)
They said today, their plan B is to make plan A work, so Nokia will die with WP.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5904/elopn9.jpg

gosh 2012-02-08 17:10
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marxian (Post 1162136)
I'd say it's a sign that a price reduction is necessary to boost falling demand, now that they are done with fleecing all the early adopters. There's nothing unusual about this.
What I mean is that Elop doesn't want to sell N9 phones. He has done what he can to not sell it.The price for N9 has been high for some time but has been slashed in two weeks. Maybe they understand that WP isn't going to be the success that they want it to be and they have start to shift focus?
They can't say this because they probably want to minimize the losses.

The price for N9 is now as the "Sony Ericsson Xperia Arc S"

gerbick 2012-02-08 17:10
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimyHR
are you stupid or you dont know how to read
I'd call that a declaration of stupidity of some sorts.

How can you say that I'm mixing up sales figures and market share? They're one in the same. You sell more - and there's only so many humans on the planet- then you will have more market share.

Explain the fallacy in that. Where's the mistake in that?

I've already attempted to explain how margins come to play. Sell less and the same margin, that equates to less income. Factors like people they employ come into play, so they released 10k employees to make up the difference.

Today, they released another 4k and stopped manufacturing in Europe and Latin America to keep up their margins.

And they're still selling less. How else will they raise their margins? They're paying 14k less people, manufacturing in less places; then what?

You've somehow gotten yourself into a conversation about how you're right without really proving anything. So where is the mistake?

Nokia sells less. Fact.
Nokia makes less. Fact.
Nokia has released 14k employees to save money. Fact.
Nokia's stock is less now, thus they're valued less. Fact.
Nokia isn't as profitable now as they were in 2007. Fact.
Nokia is looking at new ways to keep their margins intact. Fact.

That's all I've said ad nauseum. So please be a dear and correct me where I'm wrong.

Cue 2012-02-08 17:19
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1162253)
I'd call that a declaration of stupidity of some sorts.

How can you say that I'm mixing up sales figures and market share? They're one in the same. You sell more - and there's only so many humans on the planet- then you will have more market share.

Explain the fallacy in that. Where's the mistake in that?

I've already attempted to explain how margins come to play. Sell less and the same margin, that equates to less income. Factors like people they employ come into play, so they released 10k employees to make up the difference.

Today, they released another 4k and stopped manufacturing in Europe and Latin America to keep up their margins.

And they're still selling less. How else will they raise their margins? They're paying 14k less people, manufacturing in less places; then what?

You've somehow gotten yourself into a conversation about how you're right without really proving anything. So where is the mistake?

Nokia sells less. Fact.
Nokia makes less. Fact.
Nokia has released 14k employees to save money. Fact.
Nokia's stock is less now, thus they're valued less. Fact.
Nokia isn't as profitable now as they were in 2007. Fact.
Nokia is looking at new ways to keep their margins intact. Fact.

That's all I've said ad nauseum. So please be a dear and correct me where I'm wrong.
They are not one and the same. The market can grew therefore your sales can increase while you lose market share. Your mistake is that you are both arguing the same point but saying the other is wrong, you are both talking about before the announcement of Symbian being killed. Where market share was dropping but sales WERE increasing and higher than ever. This is GrimyHRs point. Therefore your "sell less" examples are wrong because they were not selling less at the time. There has been no proof about profit so far.

gerbick 2012-02-08 17:29
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1162259)
They are not one and the same. The market can grew therefore your sales can increase while you lose market share.
Market grew. But Nokia's sales did not.

Quote:
Your mistake is that you are both arguing the same point but saying the other is wrong, you are both talking about before the announcement of Symbian being killed.
I said sales were greater until after Elop's announcement. I've referenced that enough.

Quote:
Where market share was dropping but sales WERE increasing and higher than ever. This is GrimyHRs point. Therefore your "sell less" examples are wrong because they were not selling less at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Times
Nokia ... 77.3 million phones shipped and a 15.7% share of the market in 2011, down from 100.1 million phones shipped in 2010 for a 32.9% market share.
Nokia didn't ship more phones in 2011.

GrimyHR 2012-02-08 17:30
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1162253)
I'd call that a declaration of stupidity of some sorts.

How can you say that I'm mixing up sales figures and market share? They're one in the same. You sell more - and there's only so many humans on the planet- then you will have more market share.

Explain the fallacy in that. Where's the mistake in that?

I've already attempted to explain how margins come to play. Sell less and the same margin, that equates to less income. Factors like people they employ come into play, so they released 10k employees to make up the difference.

Today, they released another 4k and stopped manufacturing in Europe and Latin America to keep up their margins.

And they're still selling less. How else will they raise their margins? They're paying 14k less people, manufacturing in less places; then what?

You've somehow gotten yourself into a conversation about how you're right without really proving anything. So where is the mistake?

Nokia sells less. Fact.
Nokia makes less. Fact.
Nokia has released 14k employees to save money. Fact.
Nokia's stock is less now, thus they're valued less. Fact.
Nokia isn't as profitable now as they were in 2007. Fact.
Nokia is looking at new ways to keep their margins intact. Fact.

That's all I've said ad nauseum. So please be a dear and correct me where I'm wrong.
no their not, that is the case only if the market is not growing(and it was growing at an extreme rate for the last few years), you obviously dont know even the simple 2nd grade math or you wouldnt say something like this

even thou the market share was gowing down the NUMBER OF DEVICES SOLD PER Q. WAS GOING UP is this so hard to understand?

GrimyHR 2012-02-08 17:34
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1162268)
Market grew. But Nokia's sales did not. yes they did until nokia announced the transition to wp and killing symbian, until than the number of symbian devices sold was infact GROWING and that is the fact and the only important thing, nokia did a mistake for not continuing symbian and switching to another out of the house OS, should have stayed symbian/maemo and opened them completly, no WP, no Android, no meego



I said sales were greater until after Elop's announcement. I've referenced that enough.





Nokia didn't ship more phones in 2011.
ten chars!

MARKET SHARE != SALE NUMBERS

marxian 2012-02-08 17:41
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gosh (Post 1162252)
What I mean is that Elop doesn't want to sell N9 phones. He has done what he can to not sell it.The price for N9 has been high for some time but has been slashed in two weeks. Maybe they understand that WP isn't going to be the success that they want it to be and they have start to shift focus?
They can't say this because they probably want to minimize the losses.

The price for N9 is now as the "Sony Ericsson Xperia Arc S"
I would like to believe this as much as anyone here, but I cannot. I think you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel pretty hard to come up with an plausible explanation other than the one I gave.

The game is over, Windoze Phone won (a pyrrhic victory), and Nokia is putting the board and pieces away. The only question is how long it will take them to discard the pieces that they no longer want.

Cue 2012-02-08 18:20
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1162268)
Market grew. But Nokia's sales did not.
They did, before the announcement. Before the announcment market share was declining but sales increased because the market grew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1162268)
I said sales were greater until after Elop's announcement. I've referenced that enough.
Nokia didn't ship more phones in 2011.
Exactly, hence the reason why I said you are both arguing over the same point. GrimyHR is talking about before the announcement too, but tried to correct you on the fact that sales can increase while market share drops if the market is growing, which was the case.

See

Quote:
Gerbick:
Let's put it this way... if your market share drops considerably, then your margins need to jump considerably - I haven't seen any proof of that yet.


GrimyHR:
you are mixing market share and sale numbers, if SALE NUMBERS fall THAN you need tu boost up your margins, and at the time nokia anounced that its killing symbian(around the time n8 was the top symbian device), even thou the market share percentage was down, the NUMBER OF SYMBIAN DEVICES SOLD WAS BIGGER THAN EVER!


gerbick:
And you're quite mistaken my friend.

Let's keep numbers simple.

I once sold something for $1.00 in a 1 million lot - so 1 million dollars, and it cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be 50 cents on each, so half a million would go into my pocket.

I now sell something for $1.00 in a half million lot - so half a million dollars and it still cost me 50 cents to make each and advertise. The margin would be the same, so quarter of a million would go into my pocket.
You are trying to prove that market share decrease is the same as sales decrease. This is wrong regardless of where Nokia finds itself now, but yes there actually was a sales decrease since the announcement but nobody is disputing that. GrimyHR there is no need for insults it's completely uncalled for.

rm42 2012-02-08 18:51
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue (Post 1162291)
GrimyHR there is no need for insults it's completely uncalled for.
+1

I have to agree. Learn to win an argument with class. ;)

pycage 2012-02-08 18:55
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Nokia is selling the N9 as the only remaining Harmattan device for one simple reason: to pay for the expensive MeeGo project.
The MeeGo chapter is closed. The N9 might get OS updates for years, but it won't be developed further IMHO.

Rugoz 2012-02-08 19:03
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
The N9 might get OS updates for years, but it won't be developed further IMHO.
Don't drink and write.

gosh 2012-02-08 19:13
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pycage (Post 1162314)
Nokia is selling the N9 as the only remaining Harmattan device for one simple reason: to pay for the expensive MeeGo project.
The MeeGo chapter is closed. The N9 might get OS updates for years, but it won't be developed further IMHO.

I can't understand the stupidity among leaders at Nokia. The 2012 Q1 report will really bad. They have to understand that Symbian users are moving to other brands and systems because Nokia has stopped listen to them. You can't stop listen to your customers. Buyers for WP phones is probably those that haven't had a Nokia phone before.

ossipena 2012-02-08 19:35
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kureyon (Post 1162122)
I'm assuming that you have done the homework and that the figure quoted is the number of people that Nokia has working on Symbian. If so then they should fire them all and hire some more productive workers.
I must eat my words because a good point appeared.

The number 6800 comes from: 4000 people sacked + 2800 symbian developers moved to accenture (read: you can say no more subcontracting work and it is accenture who has to pay the devs, not nokia).

It was a straightforward conclusion:
1. drop symbian
2. lay off 6800 employers from inhouse

the symbian figure probably isn't that big alltogether when reviewed by todays numbers: 4000 blue collar people sacked around western area and replaced with chinese.

now when doing some research, I found out following:

There are some references that symbian has required approximately 3000 peoples work but gsmarenas story tells that there was ~3000 symbian developers (2800 in my numbers) + 4000 other employers,
Quote:
mostly Symbian and MeeGo R&D
http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_transf...-news-2566.php

care to quess the size of MeeGo R&D? how many promilles from the whole amount? ;)

and another article in finnish about brain drain that says nokia has 13000 employers and ~50% (tolerance?!?) of them working on Symbian/MeeGo

http://www.taloussanomat.fi/informaa...at/20112959/12

That is pretty close to my initial 6800 people IMO...

GrimyHR 2012-02-08 20:00
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rm42 (Post 1162310)
+1

I have to agree. Learn to win an argument with class. ;)
dont care about class, when i correct someone with actual facts if they continue to claim otherwise...
its not an insult if its true you know, and nevertheless i didnt insult anyone, i asked a question for which the answer could have been that he was simply ignoring my facts in which case he was the rude one... :p

gerbick 2012-02-08 20:24
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
What facts dude? Show me a link, show me some numbers. You've yet to prove anything other than you're quick to state that you're right.

Nokia shipped less phones in 2011.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/...s-apple-nokia/
http://moconews.net/article/419-repo...ip-has-sailed/
http://moconews.net/article/419-gart...n-smartphones/

They shipped less in 2011 than they did in 2010.

http://paidcontent.org/images/editor...le-sales-o.png

Quote:
But we might see Nokia have a much more drastic fall in the quarter ahead, notes Roberta Cozza, analyst at Gartner. She points out that in the last quarter, the channel bought significantly less Nokia devices, and instead reduced prices on existing stock to shift it. That resulted in a big drop in the average selling price for devices, as Nokia noted in its last earnings report.
Sold less. For less. Built less. Grabbed less share. Instead of saying that sales != market share, see that sales were less, market share was less, their margins due to discounts were less.

Or prove it otherwise with facts and less opinion.

GrimyHR 2012-02-08 20:44
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1162368)
What facts dude? Show me a link, show me some numbers. You've yet to prove anything other than you're quick to state that you're right.

Nokia shipped less phones in 2011.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/...s-apple-nokia/
http://moconews.net/article/419-repo...ip-has-sailed/
http://moconews.net/article/419-gart...n-smartphones/

They shipped less in 2011 than they did in 2010.

http://paidcontent.org/images/editor...le-sales-o.png



Sold less. For less. Built less. Grabbed less share. Instead of saying that sales != market share, see that sales were less, market share was less, their margins due to discounts were less.

Or prove it otherwise with facts and less opinion.
nokia started shipping less phones after anouncing switching to wp7 and killing symbian, until than it was only rising, so yes downfall started during 2011, but only after nokia started with negative marketing towards symbian, had this same fight on one croatian IT forum in which i provided graphs and numbers and won the argument, maybe ill bother to post them tomorow but today im going out for a couple of drinks, enjoy

qwazix 2012-02-09 08:44
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
gerbick: the mistake is that you assume there is a static number of people on the planet (see your own comment). This is true but does not mean that more and more of them buy smartphones each day.

Grimy: I believe you are talking before 2/11 and gerbick is talking about 2011 numbers where the units shipped actually declined, along with a crash in market share. So you are arguing it was a wrong move to switch to WP and gerbick is arguing that they have to do things today (sack symbian staff) to increase margins. Different arguments.

Zoxir 2012-02-09 09:25
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gosh (Post 1162325)
I can't understand the stupidity among leaders at Nokia. The 2012 Q1 report will really bad. They have to understand that Symbian users are moving to other brands and systems because Nokia has stopped listen to them. You can't stop listen to your customers. Buyers for WP phones is probably those that haven't had a Nokia phone before.
Of course they can as long as they get money for MS to recompensate for the failed OS they provide. And I believe people that haven't had a nokia phone are very few :D

GrimyHR 2012-02-09 09:39
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwazix (Post 1162549)
gerbick: the mistake is that you assume there is a static number of people on the planet (see your own comment). This is true but does not mean that more and more of them buy smartphones each day.

Grimy: I believe you are talking before 2/11 and gerbick is talking about 2011 numbers where the units shipped actually declined, along with a crash in market share. So you are arguing it was a wrong move to switch to WP and gerbick is arguing that they have to do things today (sack symbian staff) to increase margins. Different arguments.
but they shouldnt sack symbian but should sack wp and revitalise symbian (and maemo)

kureyon 2012-02-09 10:51
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1162253)
How can you say that I'm mixing up sales figures and market share? They're one in the same. You sell more - and there's only so many humans on the planet- then you will have more market share.

Explain the fallacy in that. Where's the mistake in that?
Easy.
  • sales figures are absolute numbers
  • market share is a percentage
  • total size of market (for purposes of calculating market share) is not the same as the potential size of the market (ie your reference to "there's only so many humans on the planet")
Simple hypothetical example:

Assuming there are only 2 widget manufacturers, ACorp and NCorp.

Last year, they each sold 100 million widgets. So out of a market size of 200 million widgets they each have a 50% share.

This year, the economy is better and people are buying more widgets and there's a demand for 500 million widgets. However because the CEO of NCorp had been making disparaging remarks about its own widgets they have discouraged some potential customers from buying their widgets. These customers instead buy from ACorp. So this year ACorp had their best ever year yet and sold 300 million widgets. NCorp also had their best ever year yet and sold 200 million widgets - twice as much as last year, unfortunately their market share had also dropped from 50% to 40%.

kureyon 2012-02-09 11:05
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162341)
That is pretty close to my initial 6800 people IMO...
Whatever the real numbers are the fact remains that most of them are working on ever more inventive ways to cripple the dozens or so devices that Nokia makes, to create differentiation and market segmentation. If all this energy was directed to making the OS and UI better then Nokia wouldn't be in the position they're in today.

stickymick 2012-02-09 11:47
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kureyon (Post 1162586)
Whatever the real numbers are the fact remains that most of them are working on ever more inventive ways to cripple the dozens or so devices that Nokia makes, to create differentiation and market segmentation. If all this energy was directed to making the OS and UI better then Nokia wouldn't be in the position they're in today.
Pretty much a hitting the nail on the head statement. And I'm damn certain they were almost there with Maemo 5.

But, for the life of me, I can't get the gist of their UK Lumia marketing campaign.

Tichy Stryder? http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...ik-d47vy37.gif

switch-hitter 2012-02-09 12:51
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162341)
I must eat my words because a good point appeared.

The number 6800 comes from: 4000 people sacked + 2800 symbian developers moved to accenture (read: you can say no more subcontracting work and it is accenture who has to pay the devs, not nokia).

It was a straightforward conclusion:
1. drop symbian
2. lay off 6800 employers from inhouse

the symbian figure probably isn't that big alltogether when reviewed by todays numbers: 4000 blue collar people sacked around western area and replaced with chinese.

now when doing some research, I found out following:

There are some references that symbian has required approximately 3000 peoples work but gsmarenas story tells that there was ~3000 symbian developers (2800 in my numbers) + 4000 other employers,


http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_transf...-news-2566.php

care to quess the size of MeeGo R&D? how many promilles from the whole amount? ;)

and another article in finnish about brain drain that says nokia has 13000 employers and ~50% (tolerance?!?) of them working on Symbian/MeeGo

http://www.taloussanomat.fi/informaa...at/20112959/12

That is pretty close to my initial 6800 people IMO...
We know in 2010, the year before Elop sabotaged Symbian, NOKIA sold 103.6 Million smart devices.

We know (because ZTE have announced it) that the cost of a license for WP7 is $24 to $32 depending on the standard of device it's to be used on. To be conservative we'll use the lower figure of $24

We don't know the exact number of developers NOKIA employed to work on Symbian, articles I've read seem to vary in estimate between 3,000 and 6,000. To be conservative we'll use the higher figure of 6,000.

So let's take NOKIA's unit shipments in smart devices in 2010 (i.e. before Elop's act of sabotage) and multiply it by the license fee per device that NOKIA would have had to pay if those devices had been running WP7 (we'll have to use our imaginations a little here as there's never seemed any likelihood of WP7 devices selling in these vast quantities):

103,600,000 * $24 = $2,486,400,000

Let's then divide that by the number of Symbian developers NOKIA employs so we get an annual cost per developer:

$2,486,400,000 / 6,000 = $414,400

So NOKIA would only make a saving from this plan of action if the average annual cost of employing each Symbian developer was greater than $414,000.

Mmm... do you think that's likely? :rolleyes:

And we were being conservative! If the number employed in the Symbian team was at the lower end of the spectrum and the license fee is at the upper end then we would only be talking about making a saving if the average annual cost of employing each Symbian developer was greater than $1,105,067 per annum!

Then of course you need to start factoring in the increased hardware costs because WP7 is much more demanding on resources than Symbian and it supports a much narrower range of components.

You also have to consider the loss of control, M$ developers are not directly employed by NOKIA and so their priorities will not always be the same as NOKIA's priorities.

It seems very clear to me that every single thing Elop has done has been to the benefit of M$ and to the detriment of NOKIA.

erendorn 2012-02-09 14:04
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
forgetting that MS pays Nokia a billion a year and that they have special licence agreement (ie, less than 24$, could even be nothing at all at the beginning for what we know) is not being "conservative" ;)

ossipena 2012-02-09 15:46
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch-hitter (Post 1162628)
We know in 2010, the year before Elop sabotaged Symbian, NOKIA sold 103.6 Million smart devices.

We know (because ZTE have announced it) that the cost of a license for WP7 is $24 to $32 depending on the standard of device it's to be used on. To be conservative we'll use the lower figure of $24

We don't know the exact number of developers NOKIA employed to work on Symbian, articles I've read seem to vary in estimate between 3,000 and 6,000. To be conservative we'll use the higher figure of 6,000.

So let's take NOKIA's unit shipments in smart devices in 2010 (i.e. before Elop's act of sabotage) and multiply it by the license fee per device that NOKIA would have had to pay if those devices had been running WP7 (we'll have to use our imaginations a little here as there's never seemed any likelihood of WP7 devices selling in these vast quantities):

103,600,000 * $24 = $2,486,400,000

Let's then divide that by the number of Symbian developers NOKIA employs so we get an annual cost per developer:

$2,486,400,000 / 6,000 = $414,400

So NOKIA would only make a saving from this plan of action if the average annual cost of employing each Symbian developer was greater than $414,000.

Mmm... do you think that's likely? :rolleyes:

And we were being conservative! If the number employed in the Symbian team was at the lower end of the spectrum and the license fee is at the upper end then we would only be talking about making a saving if the average annual cost of employing each Symbian developer was greater than $1,105,067 per annum!

Then of course you need to start factoring in the increased hardware costs because WP7 is much more demanding on resources than Symbian and it supports a much narrower range of components.

You also have to consider the loss of control, M$ developers are not directly employed by NOKIA and so their priorities will not always be the same as NOKIA's priorities.

It seems very clear to me that every single thing Elop has done has been to the benefit of M$ and to the detriment of NOKIA.
1. Nokia has better contract with ms than zte
2. You forgot the scenario that nokias smartphone platform dies (symbian/wp) and they want to stay alive as pure service company. Symbian = certain default, wp = stop making phones and paying from os development
3. Nokias priorities are their services on top of wp (in west), wheres the problem?
4. Increased hw costs are temporary, have you ignored every piece of news from wp camp?

sihg...maybe this is enough for this thread. At least for me.

I beg everyone to research themselves instead of believing everything symbian fanboy say. And naturally everyone should take my writings with a grain of salt or find the sources themselves.

Rugoz 2012-02-09 18:09
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
^

We know the nokia board doesn't care about platforms. In fact it hates them and just wants to pass the time until platforms become irrelevant. In that respect they are actually far ahead of their time. It could happen faster than we think though. E.g. platform independent cloud gaming will make consoles obsolete soon.

In that respect their strategy to focus on the low-end with native Qt is the right thing to do.

Problem is right now platforms still matter, and I am not sure wp was the right horse to bet on.

GrimyHR 2012-02-09 18:16
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugoz (Post 1162758)
^

We know the nokia board doesn't care about platforms. In fact it hates them and just wants to pass the time until platforms become irrelevant. In that respect they are actually far ahead of their time. It could happen faster than we think though. E.g. platform independent cloud gaming will make consoles obsolete soon.

In that respect their strategy to focus on the low-end with native Qt is the right thing to do.

Problem is right now platforms still matter, and I am not sure wp was the right horse to bet on.
oh, yeah, cloud, cant wait...:rolleyes:
id like to se you play those great games when you dont haz your internetz (weak network signal or some other reason...)
not to mention considerable lag no matter how close to server you are...

don_falcone 2012-02-09 18:18
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugoz (Post 1162758)
E.g. platform independent cloud gaming will make consoles obsolete soon.
...

Quote:
I just created Web 4.0, it's all magic. The cloud is gone in Web 4.0. It has become a fog. Go to the fog. It will really obscure your view of anything real.
True words.

Rugoz 2012-02-09 18:31
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
oh, yeah, cloud, cant wait...
id like to se you play those great games when you dont haz your internetz (weak network signal or some other reason...)
not to mention considerable lag no matter how close to server you are...
One reason I am saying this is because Crytek just announced their own cloud gaming platform, currently still beta (its called GFace). They investigated cloud gaming some time ago but now they obviously think the infrastructure will be ready within 2-3 years. Never underestimate tech. progress.

GrimyHR 2012-02-09 18:51
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugoz (Post 1162766)
One reason I am saying this is because Crytek just announced their own cloud gaming platform, currently still beta (its called GFace). They investigated cloud gaming some time ago but now they obviously think the infrastructure will be ready within 2-3 years. Never underestimate tech. progress.
cloud is not progress, too many problems when compared to local hardware

Rugoz 2012-02-09 19:12
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
cloud is not progress, too many problems when compared to local hardware
Being able to play crysis on any hardware with a wifi connection certainly is progress. It means I don't have to buy a console/pc and game developers are not limited by particular hardware.

We should welcome that development, in 10 years everything will run linux. Or have you ever heard of computing centres running windows..:)

GrimyHR 2012-02-09 19:18
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugoz (Post 1162781)
Being able to play crysis on any hardware with a wifi connection certainly is progress. It means I don't have to buy a console/pc and game developers are not limited by particular hardware.

We should welcome that development, in 10 years everything will run linux. Or have you ever heard of computing centres running windows..:)
no thank you, im feet on the ground kind of man, no cloud for me

Cue 2012-02-09 19:27
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by erendorn (Post 1162645)
forgetting that MS pays Nokia a billion a year and that they have special licence agreement (ie, less than 24$, could even be nothing at all at the beginning for what we know) is not being "conservative" ;)
It's not free. It's confirmed that they pay a fee and It's estimated to be $15 per handset. What I don't understand are the people saying Symbian needed to die because of cost. Are Nokia incapable of good management? how can outsourcing the OS save money? the only way I see that happening is if your management was poor in comparison. You also lose a lot of power, your "ecosystem", income from app sales and platform advertising. There is no reason why a high selling platform like symbian cannot be self sustaining other than poor management.

umo120 2012-02-09 19:35
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
1. Nokia has better contract with ms than zte
How do you know Nokia is paying less in licensing fees than others like ZTE? I'm really interested in the details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
2. You forgot the scenario that nokias smartphone platform dies (symbian/wp) and they want to stay alive as pure service company. Symbian = certain default, wp = stop making phones and paying from os development
If WP dies then Nokia hardly can make money from developing for it. Given current installed base of Symbian and WP they can probably make better living from Symbian than WP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
3. Nokias priorities are their services on top of wp (in west), wheres the problem?
If they want to be service provider then locking themselves into one platform is spectacularly dumb move, choosing the smallest of them all (and dying) adds quite a few levels of stupidity on top of that. But other than that all is good.

szopin 2012-02-09 20:28
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
As to cloud (salesmen are kind of nonexistant in this thread, so no longer worrying about off-topic): sony, amazon, megaupload... cloud which was recently hailed as web 3(4).0 in newspeak is currently on its knees. Maybe for gaming alone this will not be a crotch-kick, but doubt it.
As to WP being niche: Nokia/M$ just started ad capmaign in PL, it is huge. Don't watch tv and I still got hit. Friends who own tvs confirm it is there also. Time will show, but maintaining all ecosystem, platform and PR for multiple systems sounds for me like a task even apple couldn't be able to sustain. Letting a giant handle most of these tasks and concentrating on good hw seems like a good way (if adless maemo/harmattan could coexist with this I would be overjoyed, we'll see) to stay afloat. And if maemo/harmattan loving people sell the idea of full opensourcing being the nail to kill off competition we might see good times someday

Rugoz 2012-02-09 21:16
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Maybe for gaming alone this will not be a crotch-kick, but doubt it.
Well I think native apps still provide a much better user experience than web interfaces, but cloud gaming essentially bypasses the problem by just streaming the content. With enough bandwidth and low latency I don't see why it should not work.

But gaming is a special case, for other applications this is not an option or brings not enough benefits.

szopin 2012-02-09 21:27
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Of course they do, but you could play xbox games even on N900 (been done if I remember correctly already), latency is biggest obstacle, assuming you don't provide your credentials cc info on connecting for gaming it could work, for anything else people've been burnt

switch-hitter 2012-02-09 21:41
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by erendorn (Post 1162645)
forgetting that MS pays Nokia a billion a year and that they have special licence agreement (ie, less than 24$, could even be nothing at all at the beginning for what we know) is not being "conservative" ;)
Neither is forgetting M$ get the app store and the ability to integrate Navteq data into it's products.
At the end of 2010 Ovi had revenues of $105,000,000 and was growing 719% YoY.
I don't know how you quantify what access to Navteq is worth.

With regard to the license fee in what jurisdiction was the M$/NOKIA deal signed? Under American law I believe a large corporation selling the same product to different customers at different prices is a breach of the Clayton Antitrust Act and the Robinson-Patman Act. M$ already lost a court case for that back in the late nineties didn't they?

On top of the above we have also seen evidence that M$ are going to get a 1/3 share from licensing fees for NOKIA patents, patents that predate any arrangement between NOKIA and M$.

This is a quote from evidence presented in the M$ vs Barnes and Noble case (MOSAID Technology is the company now holding thousands of NOKIA's patents):
MOSAID believes that "four of the top five global cell phone vendors" will soon require a license, and MOSAID is targeting "over a trillion dollars of unlicensed revenues" of mobile devices

M$ are going to get a 1/3 share in “over a TRILLION dollars in unlicensed revenues” when that is really due to NOKIA and the M$ contribution was absolutely nothing? Wow!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
1. Nokia has better contract with ms than zte
You know for a fact NOKIA will be paying less per license? Please post a link to that for us.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
2. You forgot the scenario that nokias smartphone platform dies (symbian/wp) and they want to stay alive as pure service company. Symbian = certain default
You can say that as many times as you like but it doesn't make it true. Show us the evidence.

The fact Symbian's sales and margins were growing (verifiable facts) and the fact Ovi was growing rapidly (verifiable fact) right up until the moment Elop made his EOL announcement tells an entirely different story. At the end of Q4 2010 (the last quarter before the Elop induced meltdown) NOKIA was selling as many smartphones as Apple and Samsung combined.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
3. Nokias priorities are their services on top of wp (in west), wheres the problem?
Why on top of WP when they have over a billion users of their own platforms (MeeGo/Maemo/Symbian/Series 40)? Why prioritize creating services for a platform with such a small user base?

How did it make sense to kill Symbian in order to do that anyway? The profits being generated by Symbian could have contributed to setting up any services they wanted to introduce.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
I beg everyone to research themselves instead of believing everything symbian fanboy say. And naturally everyone should take my writings with a grain of salt or find the sources themselves.
Oh, please don't call me a fanboy, I'm so hurt...

Oh, OK then I confess... and just for the record I'm also a Maemo fanboy, a MeeGo fanboy, a webOS fanboy and even <blush>an Android fanboy</blush>.

I'm sure even WP7 has it's charms and given time has the potential to mature into something really good but I still don't see that's any justification for Elop's willful destruction of Symbian.

balisingh 2012-02-09 22:04
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
if you know the american landscape, the subject of this post is entirely true and elop is right. salesmen control which phone is sold because americans like to play dumb when it comes to tech. they go in and want you to sell them something. and thats why they buy what everyone else is buying, cuz its the safe bet, everyone couldnt be wrong.
anyhow thats why Nokia will have a hard time selling those wp7 phones unless they get the trolls to buy in.


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