Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

looking good :) maybe I have missed that info, you are planning to make two versions, which one is slided to the left and second to the right ? or it is slidable both sides ? (just looking at the pictures, that the position of camera is changing)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Define quality...
For me quality is not only working (now and ten times after), but with a set of defined specs. When the price will be somewhere between €100~€150, I'd expect flawless functionality. Because I haven't heard any concrete definitions about quality (maybe subjective ones) I'd really like to judge myself. Especially when I hear this:
In my opinion, this is part of quality, I mean basic functionality ;)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

"I can say that there is no planned changes to this in update 8."

We're currently at Update 9 opt-in so who knows what has changed. And besides: when TOHKBD hits 'the market' we're at least at Update 10 (if Update 10 doesn't get delayed, that is) so who knows what that'll bring.

Price is not gonna be 150 euros but agreed on the quality part. But I have no doubts Dirk'll make sure it's good quality :)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

The quality control stickers :p

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Yeah, actually I didn't have quality in mind when I wrote that post. I should've wrote reliability instead of quality. Quality is really tied to individual's expectations, so that's one thing hard to promise (though it's used in business in marketing purposes, most often it means nothing in that context, just a fluff word).

I do agree with your post though.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

all noted and agreed. see pages 8 - 11 or so for exactly the same discussion with me agreeing in the end also ;)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I particularly like how it is used in ISO 9000. In that context, it means nothing but traceability. You can consistently produce total cr@p - as long as you keep a paper trail everywhere, you can get an ISO 900 certifiction. I have learned to treat the "ISO 900 certified" label as "stay away".

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Exactly. I took part in implementing ISO9001 to a subcontracting company a bit over 20 years ago. We actually got DNV-certified in the process.
Important thing in certification is the repeatibility and traceability of process.
It is not enough to produce total cr@p with nice paper trail, you also need to consistently produce the same cr@p all the time. :D


Well, consistent cr@p has a place in the order of things...

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I'm 200% sure Dirk will not produce ISO900 crap so can we please go ontopic? ;)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

moar sooooon

http://i.imgur.com/1ekiAvZ.gif

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Absolutely agree with LouisDK! :D

(btw, here's my vote for DVORAK!)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

some pcb's for developer-edition are here. lot of testing to be done!

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/ra27gf997w6...2013.51.54.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/5arxrgrdfxw...2013.57.17.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/k5epll6bicg...2013.59.56.jpg

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

yaaaayy :) (QWERTZ will be for me) :)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

nice!

i see some places for LEDs, can we solder self some one on the pcb?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

backlight will be available.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

This will be awesome! Hacker's Scandic will be for me, i.e.: Swedish keys, and pipe, back/slash, dollar, single/double quote, back-tick, hash, ampersand, round, square and curly braces, less than, greater than, equals, question-mark, exclamation-mark, comma, period, TAB (without modifier), escape (without modifier), circumflex, tilde, dash, underline, colon, semi-colon, asterisk and others I forgot easily available.

Someone will need to think quite hard about good keyboard layouts! One idea is reversing the normal order of some keys, like on some French keyboards, where the numbers and the accents are on the same keys, but the numbers are the ones that require a modifier (maybe caps-lock can work as num-lock?)

I am a bit concerned about the space at the top of the keyboard, will there be enough space between the Jolla and the top row of keys to avoid getting cramped by / bumping into the Jolla when using those keys?

Also, maybe swap places between insert and delete keys? Most people use delete a lot more than insert, and a small key right at the edge of the keyboard might get a bit uncomfortable to hit.

I like the large-size keys for important things (like ctrl, return, etc) but if that makes them mechanically harder to press or less precise, I rather have them the same size as all the other keys.

Do make sure to over-size and bevel the camera hole alot so that the camera is guaranteed to be useable without any diffraction problems, both with flash on and off! This was a bad problem with the original TOHKBD.

Oh, and a flip cover for the keyboard would be nice too, something with a stiff cover that can take bumps to the keyboard when I have it detached and in my pocket.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I do not know how to respond to this.

Do you assume we haven't?! The current layout is optimized to please as much people as possible.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Maybe you should look at this way...nothing is perfect, there is always possible to improve ;)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

i think specifications will be open, and you can always produce your own keyboard if want.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Would love to buy the Scandic model!

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

It's a bit (with some stretch) like saying, "Everybody knows how the internal combustion engine works, go and build your own car." Not everyone has the necessary skills or equipment. I guess the most limiting factor for those with the necessary skills would be the access to a 3D printer.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Oh, no! I can clearly see that you have put lots of thought into this! What I was thinking about was more related to "multiple (a lot) of layouts", for example my wish is specialized to have a combination of hacker-friendly (with vi-support) and Swedish layout, something that the standard Swedish PC-keyboard really doesn't do very well.

You have clearly worked hard at finding layouts that please as many as possible! What I was thinking was more along the lines of many layouts, where each layout pleases a few very well and at the same time a sufficient number of layouts to cover everyone. That would be a lot of work. A Kazakh layout with strong emoji support? A Greek layout with good support for mark-down? A layout for the bi-lingual Hebrew-Cyrillic typer?

Perhaps some sort of crowd-sourcing could help? If you can provide a blank image of the keyboard layout, and correctly sized images of each character, people could use simple tools like Paint to drag the characters into place on the blank keyboard and upload to some central repository (a wiki at TMO?). There they can discuss the different layouts that they are interested in and tweak them to perfection (including forks when they disagree). Then others can come in and pick and choose among lots of different layouts when they order a keyboard.

Or perhaps I have just gone overboard with this, and when you say "lots of layouts", you don't mean it for quite so large values of "lots"! :-)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Damn stefanmohl, you're going a bit overboard here. Let's first focus on finishing the current layout(s) that'll please the most people and then perhaps we can focus on what comes next.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

fun idea for tohkbd rev4

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Oh sexy...can't wait to get my hands on thhkbd rev4 deluxe edition with extra gold for jPhone ll.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I don't see a qwerty spanish variant, a language with 470 millions of native speakers.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

some more elaborate replies:

Quote:

Originally Posted by malkavian (Post 1444408) I don't see a qwerty spanish variant

i haven't seen a lot of spanish jolla users. if the demand is high enough everything is possible, but we can not please everyone.
we will however share all files to adjust your keyboard to your liking in your local laser-engraving shop, that will give the same finish.
or as coderus told before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1444372) It's a bit (with some stretch) like saying, "Everybody knows how the internal combustion engine works, go and build your own car." Not everyone has the necessary skills or equipment. I guess the most limiting factor for those with the necessary skills would be the access to a 3D printer.

so follow the tutorials on my site and get familiar with 3d printing services as shapeways. it is less complex than you think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanmohl (Post 1444379) Perhaps some sort of crowd-sourcing could help? If you can provide a blank image of the keyboard layout, and correctly sized images of each character, people could use simple tools like Paint to drag the characters into place on the blank keyboard and upload to some central repository (a wiki at TMO?). There they can discuss the different layouts that they are interested in and tweak them to perfection (including forks when they disagree). Then others can come in and pick and choose among lots of different layouts when they order a keyboard.

I tried that with this topic, but there were more people shouting 'do this layout' and Q&A, than an actual discussion. My priority is also not to lead this complex crowd-sourcing project. If anyone else want to pick this up, I will definitely be listening as everything I do is demand-based. But demand-based design is not changing something because one person says

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefanmohl (Post 1444379) Oh, no! I can clearly see that you have put lots of thought into this! ... Or perhaps I have just gone overboard with this, and when you say "lots of layouts", you don't mean it for quite so large values of "lots"! :-)

You assume correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1444407) Oh sexy...can't wait to get my hands on thhkbd rev4 deluxe edition with extra gold for jPhone ll.

As soon as they send me CAD files I can start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1444364) nothing is perfect, there is always possible to improve ;)

But not always within the time and budget. we have to channel our effort to important stuff, what is important for us may differ from some else.
If people found something really important I would assume posts here would be better funded than
which is -probably not meant as such- edging on insult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsikus (Post 1443844) looking good :) maybe I have missed that info, you are planning to make two versions, which one is slided to the left and second to the right ? or it is slidable both sides ? (just looking at the pictures, that the position of camera is changing)

It works on both sides!

Thanks! On-topic, lots of news the coming week!

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I don't really see what's the big deal with missing some specific key layouts. Of course it would be nice to have everything, but wouldn't it be more important to use the time to get the keyboard done with at least some keymap in the first place. After that being done it would be more relevant to increase the amount of different keymaps.

We don't get much choices in what's printed in PC keyboards either and still we use custom keymaps on them without crying about it. The keys are what matters and what they do, not what is printed on them.

At least try not to be rude towards people trying to make some awesome stuff for us.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

List of languages by number of native speakers : Mandarin, Spanish, English, Hindi, Arabic, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, Japanese, Punjabi, German, etc.

Anyway, I'll buy a english QWERTY TOHBDv2 if a portuguese or spanish one isn't available.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Wait, Jolla is that popular that 470 millions of Spanish people are using Jolla and all want this TOHKBD?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Sadly for latinamericans no. By the moment, only in Spain could buy Jolla, so we are not so much...yet.

We only need these symbols added: Opening question and exclamation marks "¿", "¡", the acute (for making áéíóú), the umlaut (for making "ü") that I see azerty keyboard has in the "+" key and the ñ (that usually is on the key on the right of "L"). And I see there are space for adding it in some keys.

That's a total of 5 symbols. ¿Couldn't be done a qwerty valid for spanish and english? Symbol order in number's line usually changes in spanish keyboards, but that is not as important, and morover, lot of people consider english order for symbols is better.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I just sawn there is another two symbols in spanish keyboards, but they are not as important: "º" and "ª", wich are the equivalent to english "st"(first) for masculine and feminine respectively (and for second, third, fourth... in spanish the symbol are always these). And Catalonians use "ç" and "Ç", that's another letter for an smaller group, but could be great to have (altought I am not catalonian and don't use that symbol).

So well, there are 8 symbols to add if possible. Or 7 for complete spanish. Or 5 would be enought.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Thanks for all your input, but I cannot do anything with this!

Please use THIS THREAD for all you keyboard layout problems and:
- do research
- come up with a solution
- make sure it is well funded
- provide pictures/layouts/whatever

I do not have the time nor the energy to solve your puzzle.

Alternatively - mentioned lots of times:

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

dirkvl: Maybe its been mentioned in the thread, but its 36 pages now so its easier to simply ask (at least its not on post #1).
How many units do you aim for? Do you think you will do several batches?

I am more than interested, but I'm wondering how quick one has to be in order to get one.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

@malkavian: But the problem is that everyone uses different languages even on English adapted keyboards. For example, I use Dutch, English and German as my 3 main languages. So I should ask for a English variant that has German on it as well (considering that German is more used than Dutch throughout the world)?

You can't please everyone, so my opinion is that it's best to now focus on what can be done for an initial batch to please the most people. There are very Spanish speaking Jolla users atm so English, German and French are IMHO more important since Jolla is available in more countries where those languages are spoken (or close variants thereof).

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Shut up Dirkvl. A truck full of my money is parked in front of your door.

Re: TOHKBD rev2