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-   -   Jolla Tablet Refunds (latest developments) (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94393)

jalyst 2015-07-01 08:53
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK (Post 1475335)
Thanks for some actual examples, so IYO, is this an accurate account/summary of the situation?

Quote:
If there was any "agility" you'd see them constantly talking to the few active community devs and patchers who have managed to significantly ameliorate many problems or lacking features ... instead the standard M.O. appears to be to ignore them completely even when they repeatedly reach out.
And IYO is SF clearly significantly worse than UT, Tizen, FFOS, or the several forked Android distros?
(i.e. does anyone here actively dev/power-use in one or more of those communities)

pichlo 2015-07-01 09:06
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1475333)
Not my Qn
That depends on how you define "it" in your, "is it really that bad?" I question the Jolla the company's behaviour in the market. Whatever your narrow definition of "it" is, it is covered.

Quote:
Are you inferring I see Jolla as my special friend? I do like to try to look at things objectively.
Of course, everybody is objective. I am objective. You are objective. Somehow we always see the objectivity bias only in other people.

How would you react if you had a deal with your plumber about coming to fix your boiler, you paid upfront, and the plumber disappears without a trace for two months with no indication when or if ever he will come back?

Bad business is bad business. There is no difference between Jolla and that plumber.

jalyst 2015-07-01 09:15
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
I'm really just wanting you to address the Qn/point (admittedly it isn't necessarily easy without some careful/heavy research), if you don't know how that's fine.

I'm glad you weren't inferring that I see Jolla as my "special friend", & that only you are the master of all objectivity, thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1475343)
Indeed, further to that, Carol Chen reiterated last week (think on twitter) that they were still having issues integrating the display, hence the delays (and are we to infer lack of communication?). Are we really meant to believe that? If true, what are they doing? Trying to jam an etch-a-sketch into the shell with a lump hammer?
They've already suggested they have way more issues than just display-related to resolve (as if that isn't already obvious), see prior posts. They haven't even officially announced a delay, when/if they do (it's becoming increasingly likely there'll be one, we'll know for sure soon), if they say "Oh, it's just display problems -that's all", THEN you can go crazy, if there's a solid basis for that. But claiming now in the absence of their own official statement, that they're using display issues as some kind of smoke-screen, & the sole reason for any delay, is being disingenuous at best.

I didn't see your complaints about the massive yr upon yr delays for UT before it finally started to solidify at the start of this year, even today it's still far from fully baked, & certainly no more capable overall(1), less IME but that was ~7mth ago.

Quote:
Re: the lack of updates. It is 4 months since they updated the main part of the Indiegogo page. However I guess you could say I was wrong as it's 'only' 3 months since they issued an update in the Updates section (to say thank you at the final -extended- close of the campaign). That they can't be bothered to push what little info they've published on the blog to the campaign page speaks volumes for how little they regard or value their backers.
C'mon now, really clutching a straws here, there was more recent updates in the BLOG, the BLOG is referenced at IGG, I agree they should also do their updates at IGG, but it's not really something one can crucify them over. It's an easy mistake to make, I don't think there's anything genuinely sinister going on, just complain to them(2) that it's unacceptable that updates aren't landing there too, they'll probably correct their processes & ensure they land there too from now on.


(1)
The desktop integration will be the sole really strong PoD
(2)
Ask around on Twitter for one of the PR folk, there's a few there IIRC

JulmaHerra 2015-07-01 09:34
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1475330)
This exactly prooves the point that lack of information is not good.
As there was no information if they actually resolved the problems with display (even HW problem as finding proper replacement). And no one said that they just need some time to finish software, as there is possibility as they hit a brick.
There has.

https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-iteration-4/

Some parts, for instance the Android app support and the support for multiple devices (tablet & phone) in the Jolla store backend and client need a lot of work still. Just to mention a few items. All in all, the Sailfish OS 2.0 software development is progressing steadily, but it still requires a lot of effort in many areas.

Last comment from them was from June 26th that there are still some problems to be resolved with ODM regarding the new display. However, until that is resoled, there is no relevant news to publish if there are no further delays.

Quote:
The whole problem is that with no information all we talk here are speculations. And it can take you any direction.
You see it black and white, but no we do not need "yellow press" info from inside Jolla, all we need is brief update which is common thing in any crowedfunded project — ANY...
I have started to see it more black and white after seeing how every new piece of information spawns more speculation and much of that speculation is deliberately poisonous and negative. Only relevant update at this moment would be the binding delivery schedule or that there is further delay. Announcing the same situation (basically "we are working on it but have no dates etc. to announce yet") doesn't do any good. No "brief updates" will ever suffice, they will only spawn requests for more and we would be back in this very discussion again, dancing around funny definiton of term "silence". :)

Quote:
It's not even about good or bad PR, it's about common sense when people funded the product and have no idea of it's status and future after 2 months delay.
Status is that there are problems with ODM and most likely something needs to be done on software side also, as it has been mentioned some time ago. Everything else beyond that is only speculation. We are within one month of target delivery date, so as I said before, only relevant information at this time is to announce that problems have been solved and deliveries will start in certain date, or that solving problems will need more time so there is further delay. However, it's likely that it's not yet possible to determine if further delay is needed and for how long, so it makes perfect sense not to announce something just for the sake of announcing something.

Quote:
Though that's is more of yellow press, but you need to understand that some people not simply leave project with no reason, especially if they FOSS supporters and Jolla is so good....
I rather not speculate on reasons why people decide to change their job. People leave companies for numerous reasons, which doesn't really need to be anything more than someone annoying in the working place or methods, work burden, stress etc. Even inside FOSS-communities people change projects, do forks and go separate ways for various reasons. I can say that I wouldn't been able to go through launching of Jolla phone and long days just because I have family to raise, no matter how I felt towards company, the product or anything else.

Quote:
just food for thought, that you are wearing pink glasses. And that they actually have great PR team if you still think all is that good and they are perfect, as their campains before they ask for money are always great and silence just after money is gathered is common pattern :)
Usually I don't wear pink glasses, not towards companies and especially not towards people, communities etc. I think you are exaggerating quite a bit on that part, if your definition of silence is what Jolla has done during Indiegogo-campaign, I'm not sure if I wanted to be in silent place like in your definition to get some rest. :)

bluefoot 2015-07-01 09:37
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1475329)

**response to - I don't think anyone is saying it's solely due to display issues...**
^^
Jolla did. Months ago. Since then, silence.

I really wish some people stopped seeing Jolla as their "special friend". They are not. They are a commercial company. And as such, their behaviour is a steady road to disaster. If not there already.
Indeed, further to that, Carol Chen reiterated last week (think on twitter) that they were still having issues integrating the display, hence the delays (and are we to infer lack of communication?). Are we really meant to believe that? If true, what are they doing? Trying to jam an etch-a-sketch into the shell with a lump hammer?

Re: the lack of updates. It is 4 months since they updated the main part of the Indiegogo page. However I guess you could say I was wrong as it's 'only' 3 months since they issued an update in the Updates section (to say thank you at the final -extended- close of the campaign). That they can't be bothered to push what little info they've published on the blog to the campaign page speaks volumes for how little they regard or value their backers.

bluefoot 2015-07-01 09:51
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1475337)



And IYO is SF clearly significantly worse than UT, Tizen, FFOS, or the several forked Android distros?
(i.e. does anyone here actively dev/power-use in one or more of those communities)
I know little of how the developers interact, help or hinder the community in Tizen, Android it varies greatly but most appear to be decent, FFOS I don't know but Mozilla are usually pretty good at communicating even if they don't always cooperate in the other spaces that they're active.

UT and Canonical's approach to it is light years ahead of Jolla. You can see exactly what they're working on at any given time, and what the bugs are (save for stuff that's way upstream), what the devs are thinking, what delays there might be & why, and anyone can jump in and participate, offer fixes or ask questions. It's all done on an open mailing list. You can also test any of the builds (at your own risk), which tend to be spat out every few days (or at least once a week). Excellent example of this was when Jolla's own stskeeps (the guy responsible for libhybris, which UT also employs) took issue with incomplete source (actually just mislabelled parts of source) being released for the Aquaris E4.5 in a blog post and post to the dev list. The developers responded and said they'd look into it immediately. They found the headers were incorrect (rather than Mediatek / bQ removing or obfuscating bits of the source) and released a correctly labelled version of the source within days. Granted you can't see the development process for OEMs' work, though you frequently can test their internal builds which are often pushed to the main repos. They're as transparent as it gets.

Regardless, the possible failures or inadequacies of other developers should not exuse Jolla from their own, which are very apparent.

Dave999 2015-07-01 09:54
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1475342)
There has.

https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-iteration-4/

Some parts, for instance the Android app support and the support for multiple devices (tablet & phone) in the Jolla store backend and client need a lot of work still. Just to mention a few items. All in all, the Sailfish OS 2.0 software development is progressing steadily, but it still requires a lot of effort in many areas.

Last comment from them was from June 26th that there are still some problems to be resolved with ODM regarding the new display. However, until that is resoled, there is no relevant news to publish if there are no further delays.



I have started to see it more black and white after seeing how every new piece of information spawns more speculation and much of that speculation is deliberately poisonous and negative. Only relevant update at this moment would be the binding delivery schedule or that there is further delay. Announcing the same situation (basically "we are working on it but have no dates etc. to announce yet") doesn't do any good. No "brief updates" will ever suffice, they will only spawn requests for more and we would be back in this very discussion again, dancing around funny definiton of term "silence". :)



Status is that there are problems with ODM and most likely something needs to be done on software side also, as it has been mentioned some time ago. Everything else beyond that is only speculation. We are within one month of target delivery date, so as I said before, only relevant information at this time is to announce that problems have been solved and deliveries will start in certain date, or that solving problems will need more time so there is further delay. However, it's likely that it's not yet possible to determine if further delay is needed and for how long, so it makes perfect sense not to announce something just for the sake of announcing something.



I rather not speculate on reasons why people decide to change their job. People leave companies for numerous reasons, which doesn't really need to be anything more than someone annoying in the working place or methods, work burden, stress etc. Even inside FOSS-communities people change projects, do forks and go separate ways for various reasons. I can say that I wouldn't been able to go through launching of Jolla phone and long days just because I have family to raise, no matter how I felt towards company, the product or anything else.



Usually I don't wear pink glasses, not towards companies and especially not towards people, communities etc. I think you are exaggerating quite a bit on that part, if your definition of silence is what Jolla has done during Indiegogo-campaign, I'm not sure if I wanted to be in silent place like in your definition to get some rest. :)
Im not saying you are wrong. The information Im looking for is not only screen and issues. Im also intressted in what happend during the month.Good, stuff, bad stuff...funny stuff. dreams related to tablet devolvment. so much going on during development of a product. before they had pretty much montly updates(tablet itteration blog posts)...which was cool but then suddenly stopped without reason...so BAD Its crowd funding project.

edit a meesage on jolla is almost impossible ;)

szopin 2015-07-01 10:12
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
2/10 very low effort, since this is now unsubstantiated suspicions thread, I suspect that:

since jolla is now officially russian mobile system (no longer rumour, sorry samsung: http://reviewjolla.blogspot.com/2015...-over.html?m=1 ) and got to the top of targets for NSA they are busy:
properly airgapping their environment
running background checks on both current and previous contributors (weeding out those backdoors)
with the help of russian hackers finding backdoors in HW drivers tgey planned to use (hence the problems with good components)
undergoing lie detector tests
swimming in sea of rubles

after all, Putin cannot be seen with NSA compromised device, hopefully he'll get a tablet too

juiceme 2015-07-01 10:19
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1475347)
...
edit a meesage on jolla is almost impossible ;)
There is good medicine for that, and it is called TOHKBD2 :D

MartinK 2015-07-01 10:23
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1475350)
weeding out those backdoors
So maybe they should open source all they can so that also other can check that there are indeed no backdoors ? ;-)

szopin 2015-07-01 10:29
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK (Post 1475352)
So maybe they should open source all they can so that also other can check that there are indeed no backdoors ? ;-)
and give NSA head start? they wouldn't need to infiltrate them then, no wai, drivers from samsung&dod are enough of a pain

jalyst 2015-07-01 10:29
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1475346)
You can see exactly what they're working on at any given time, and what the bugs are (save for stuff that's way upstream), what the devs are thinking, what delays there might be & why, and anyone can jump in and participate, offer fixes or ask questions. It's all done on an open mailing list. You can also test any of the builds (at your own risk), which tend to be spat out every few days (or at least once a week). Granted you can't see the development process for OEMs' work, though you frequently can test their internal builds which are often pushed to the main repos. They're as transparent as it gets.
I'm not deep enough into the Sailfish dev. side of things to comment on how it compares to this (I know enough to suspect that it's probably nowhere near as transparent as this -assuming "this" is 100% correct), I'll let others who are comment in much more detail, ideally they've also had some involvement in UT.

bluefoot 2015-07-01 10:31
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK (Post 1475352)
So maybe they should open source all they can so that also other can check that there are indeed no backdoors ? ;-)
But, but, the Russian guy claimed the process would start in June and it'd all be open by the close of July with the release of 2.0 :-o The usual suspects here jumped in to claim that was the word of god, and non-committal statements (to the contrary) by Saarnio and others at Jolla ("info soon" / "not ready to talk about it") must surely be misunderstandings.

Does this mean we won't have a fully open OS by the end of this month? Some people here must be shocked at this turn of events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1475354)
I'm not deep enough into the Sailfish dev. side of things to comment on how it compares to this (I know enough to suspect that it's probably nowhere near as transparent as this -assuming "this" is 100% correct), I'll let others who are comment in much more detail, ideally they've also had some involvement in UT.
I think you know very well what the answer is ...

jalyst 2015-07-01 10:36
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1475355)
But, but, the Russian guy claimed the process would start in June and it'd all be open by the close of July with the release of 2.0 :-o The usual suspects here jumped in to claim that was the word of god, and non-committal statements (to the contrary) by Saarnio and others at Jolla ("info soon" / "not ready to talk about it") must surely be misunderstandings. Does this mean we won't have a fully open OS by the end of this month? Some people here must be shocked at this turn of events.
That's not what happened, I recall the exchange you had with szopin (IIIRC?), he didn't claim it was coming then, you suggested that's what the official company line was & he clarified what it really was (IIRC you refused to agree despite the interview with a co. rep. -not a gov't official- that he referenced); i.e. there's plans for a time-line, but no plans to release/announce it yet, but they hope to "soon". That's my vague recollection, I'll leave szopin/you to dig-up the actual exchange for the full detail. Yes their statement is -once again- vague as hell, but it's a confirmation at least that there's plans afoot for more opening, something they'd not said anything about for a very long time.

Quote:
I think you know very well what the answer is ...
Well, I don't, which is why I'm asking for insights from more than just one user, ideally a user who happens to be an active dev in at least 1 of those 2 communities.

szopin 2015-07-01 10:42
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
on opennes in tizen you can read here:
https://lists.sailfishos.org/piperma...ne/006264.html

maybe some dev can confirm the UT praise, did not see that many praising it so far, some pink glasses?

MartinK 2015-07-01 10:46
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1475353)
and give NSA head start? they wouldn't need to infiltrate them then, no wai, drivers from samsung&dod are enough of a pain
You don't know much about security, do you ? ;-)

(hint: Most security critical algorithms and libraries are public & open source and a target of a very strict pear review. Closed source components, which can't be reviewed in a similar way, are often considered untrusted by default.)

bluefoot 2015-07-01 10:49
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1475356)
Well, I don't, which is why I'm asking for insights from more than just one user, ideally a user who happens to be an active dev in at least 1 of those 2 communities.
MartinK just posted about a small number of issues. Forgotten already? There are many more.

If you choose to believe that's not how UT development works, fine. It's all in the open, though, so if you don't want to go and look, that's your prerogative.

Anyway, we go back to the point of people making excuses for Jolla on the basis that they aren't THAT bad compared with others (they are), but fail to find much defensible about their action / inaction itself.

szopin 2015-07-01 10:55
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK (Post 1475358)
You don't know much about security, do you ? ;-)

(hint: Most security critical algorithms and libraries are public & open source and a target of a very strict pear review. Closed source components, which can't be reviewed in a similar way, are often considered untrusted by default.)
pear review...
yeah, problem is NSA has a hundred hackers to throw at it the instant it drops, peer review and audit can be performed with GRU help before dropping to the public, want to make those holes available to NSA first?

edit: just to be clear, not promoting security through obscurity, but open sourcing is not a remedy, you need to pay people to make proper audit (see truecrypt audit funding), NSA already has such people and they pay them monthly. Closed source can be secure, most banks use MS solutions and somehow it works, but yeah, once they open source go at it and find all the bugs

jalyst 2015-07-01 11:09
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1475361)
MartinK just posted about a small number of issues. Forgotten already? There are many more.
I refer folks back to my most recent posts, they're very straight forward in what they're asking.
They're not asking for e.g.'s of no comms between active devs & jolla, that point was already addressed by martin.
My most recent posts had a different set of Qns, I'm not sure how that could be unclear to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1475337)
Thanks for some actual examples, so IYO, is this an accurate account/summary of the situation?
<SNIP>
And IYO is SF clearly significantly worse than UT, Tizen, FFOS, or the several forked Android distros?
(i.e. does anyone here actively dev/power-use in one or more of those communities)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1475354)
I'm not deep enough into the Sailfish dev. side of things to comment on how it compares to this (I know enough to suspect that it's probably nowhere near as transparent as this -assuming "this" is 100% correct), I'll let others who are comment in much more detail, ideally they've also had some involvement in UT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1475356)
Well, I don't, which is why I'm asking for insights from more than just one user, ideally a user who happens to be an active dev in at least 1 of those 2 communities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1475357)
maybe some dev can confirm the UT praise, did not see that many praising it so far, some pink glasses?
THIS, some insights from those that've actually been heavily involved (ideally SF too), would be great.

pichlo 2015-07-01 11:19
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK (Post 1475358)
You don't know much about security, do you ? ;-)

(hint: Most security critical algorithms and libraries are public & open source and a target of a very strict pear review. Closed source components, which can't be reviewed in a similar way, are often considered untrusted by default.)
You don't know much about business, do you? ;-)

Most businesses do not trust anything "open-sorce" by default. Most businesses prefer other businesses supplying their solutions, including security. Most businesses' security implementation is closed source.

(And when I say "most", I mean, "from all the companies I have worked for in the past 25 years, 100%". Feel free to do the substitution in all cases the word "most" was used in the above paragraph.)

So, when you say "considered untrusted", please do not forget to specify *by whom*.

Also, sorry about the small OT diversion but since you've touched upon the topic of peer review...

MartinK 2015-07-01 12:24
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1475364)
You don't know much about business, do you? ;-)

Most businesses do not trust anything "open-sorce" by default. Most businesses prefer other businesses supplying their solutions, including security. Most businesses' security implementation is closed source.

(And when I say "most", I mean, "from all the companies I have worked for in the past 25 years, 100%". Feel free to do the substitution in all cases the word "most" was used in the above paragraph.)
My personal experience is quite the opposite - for example RHEL is heavily used in the financial sector, to run stock exchanges and by many other big enterprise companies. And it's all open source.

Dave999 2015-07-01 15:37
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
are we abandoned by jolla? no more info before release..?

plz jolla. ubdate your blog asap we want to be close to process. Dont ignore the funders...

Tip of the day...
https://www.giveffect.com/crowdfundi...practice-guide

The Game Plan:
Commit
Win First Followers
Build Dialogue
Spiral Out: Keep the conversation going, will be easier to garner momentum
Tell the story
Listen: Feedback is great mechanism
Meet the press: each press have interesting stories
Finish Strong


Anyways...Lekku is on fire! :D Juha Paakkari And the rest, watch and learn! ;)

darkestmind on June 25, 2015...
Will there be some kind of DRM agreement or can we look forward for videos of Jolla tablet? =)

Iekku Pylkkä on July 1, 2015 at 7:37 am
Developers will get early access to SW releases and they will have a developer device, therefore they need to sign NDA (Non-disclosure agreement).

Stskeeps 2015-07-01 16:50
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluefoot (Post 1475346)
Excellent example of this was when Jolla's own stskeeps (the guy responsible for libhybris, which UT also employs) took issue with incomplete source (actually just mislabelled parts of source) being released for the Aquaris E4.5 in a blog post and post to the dev list. The developers responded and said they'd look into it immediately. They found the headers were incorrect (rather than Mediatek / bQ removing or obfuscating bits of the source) and released a correctly labelled version of the source within days. Granted you can't see the development process for OEMs' work, though you frequently can test their internal builds which are often pushed to the main repos. They're as transparent as it gets.
Bluefoot, are you by chance based in Helsinki or Tampere area in Finland?

My problem with your posts (and why I don't answer them as often) is that you often get a lot of things right but also horribly wrong many times - and explaining all those facets can be quite time-consuming for me, that I'd rather spend with my family in the evening instead of explaining.

I don't think you get things wrong from point of view of analysis - you seem quite capable in that area, but that you don't have all the data needed to do a full analysis and have a full understanding.

Consider this post a voucher for a few free beverages with me if I'm in same town as you at some point and let's talk about mobile business in general.

EDIT: And if you're way too far out of the way for this ever being a likelihood, come talk to me on IRC, irc.freenode.net, nickname "Stskeeps"

Dave999 2015-07-01 16:56
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
I want to listen in on that conversion. Please bring a web cam. I wants to reach full understanding. Information is key...

55 days to tablet shipment.

minimos 2015-07-02 05:49
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1475364)
You don't know much about business, do you? ;-)

Most businesses do not trust anything "open-sorce" by default. Most businesses prefer other businesses supplying their solutions, including security. Most businesses' security implementation is closed source.
Indeed. Key word is indemnification: whom are those businesses to blame if they suffer damage when a security weakness is found.
Another reason to go proprietary is when they want a special option to do XYZ (and the bigger the more of a mess is their internal structure and more often they need these 'special' options), and cannot wait for an open-sourced volunteer.
Look towards US, especially in the government and financial sector and you'll find plenty of examples.

ZogG 2015-07-02 06:32
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 1475409)
Bluefoot, are you by chance based in Helsinki or Tampere area in Finland?

My problem with your posts (and why I don't answer them as often) is that you often get a lot of things right but also horribly wrong many times - and explaining all those facets can be quite time-consuming for me, that I'd rather spend with my family in the evening instead of explaining.

I don't think you get things wrong from point of view of analysis - you seem quite capable in that area, but that you don't have all the data needed to do a full analysis and have a full understanding.

Consider this post a voucher for a few free beverages with me if I'm in same town as you at some point and let's talk about mobile business in general.

EDIT: And if you're way too far out of the way for this ever being a likelihood, come talk to me on IRC, irc.freenode.net, nickname "Stskeeps"
And maybe if you already here and you talk on matter, you would enlighten us all? Because currently i see "you don't understand everything, but i don't want to explain it"


Edit:

As i understand explaining over IRC or even personal meeting can consume not less time while again, most of people here would be clueless(if you really can add som clearance). Otherwise it's one of the most common Internet answers " I do not have time, I don't want, I'm above it" together with "you are wrong, you don't get everything, there are things you don't know", while it's "valid point", those answers have no argument and any info and if a person especially popular and respectful( and you are, you are excellent dev and respectful maemo member), everyone one would just "wow, put likes, thanks". But just to be clear, if I would do something like that in all arguments in this thread(and it 'm OK of being not that popular here :)) and tell people, "while you all have some valid points, you are still so wrong and Jolla is doing it wrong, but I have no time to explain it, if you want facts and info you can come over here to....Israel for beer and I would love to tell you everything and explain why", what if I use this in my argument?

szopin 2015-07-02 07:07
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1475449)
come over here to....Israel for beer and I would love to tell you everything and explain why
Awesome, always wanted to visit Israel, be there in a sec

switch-hitter 2015-07-02 07:07
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 1475409)
nickname "Stskeeps"
How do you pronounce your nick, is is "Saint Skeeps" or "S T S Keeps" or another way I haven't thought of? (and don't just say the latter, I really want to know :D)

Dave999 2015-07-02 07:11
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
I could also educate jolla in how to work with crowdfunding. since most of leadership comes from nokia, a big corporation mostly working behind closed doors, they get it right sometimes but often miss crucial parts.

strongm 2015-07-02 07:24
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1475454)
i the get it right sometimes but often niss crucial parts.
What's most disappointing is that in the wake of the debacle of the Jolla phone's original release, Jolla claimed that they had learned a lot of lessons, particularly concerning communication about the product launch. And now it seems they have forgotten all those lessons.

Stskeeps 2015-07-02 07:56
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1475449)
And maybe if you already here and you talk on matter, you would enlighten us all? Because currently i see "you don't understand everything, but i don't want to explain it"
That's your way of interpreting it, not mine.

Quote:

Edit:

As i understand explaining over IRC or even personal meeting can consume not less time while again, most of people here would be clueless(if you really can add som clearance). Otherwise it's one of the most common Internet answers " I do not have time, I don't want, I'm above it"
Again, that's not what I said.

Quote:
together with "you are wrong, you don't get everything, there are things you don't know", while it's "valid point", those answers have no argument and any info and if a person especially popular and respectful( and you are, you are excellent dev and respectful maemo member), everyone one would just "wow, put likes, thanks". But just to be clear, if I would do something like that in all arguments in this thread(and it 'm OK of being not that popular here :)) and tell people, "while you all have some valid points, you are still so wrong and Jolla is doing it wrong, but I have no time to explain it, if you want facts and info you can come over here to....Israel for beer and I would love to tell you everything and explain why", what if I use this in my argument?
I don't understand this sentence at all.

I understand the problem somehow though. How can we move towards having a general better understanding for everybody here and elsewhere of how mobile business works? Should I blog more about the challenges there are in mobile business?

The mobile world is so multifaceted. Each company that's involved or wanting to partner has their own agendas and reasons.

The key things that's going on in the world right now is:
* Increasing governmental worry of too tight technological dependence on two companies and the pushing out of local companies and services.
* Mobile commerce is where a lot of commerce is going, away from typical e-commerce. Google and Apple sits tightly on m-commerce.
* Our mobile devices that are almost like parts of our minds are not under our control, but that of others.

Dave999 2015-07-02 08:33
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
loved your first hw adoptions blog post. any chance to get another one of these in the future?

ggabriel 2015-07-02 08:43
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1475411)
I want to listen in on that conversion. Please bring a web cam. I wants to reach full understanding. Information is key...
You want a web cam to witness a conversation on IRC? Isn't it better to, well, join the IRC channel?

juiceme 2015-07-02 08:54
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 1475459)
* Our mobile devices that are almost like parts of our minds are not under our control, but that of others.
This, I think is one of the often misunderstood/overlooked things that need to be attended.

Nowdays "general public" is used to pushing their personal data into various cloud storages and online accounts managed by either device vendors (MS, Google, Apple) or any number of application providers (sports tracking, photos&videos, health&sleep data, notes, documents, ideas, contribution, contacts&frienship, work history & CV's, financical plans and details, credit history, ...etc ... etc ...)

Many people somehow assume that it is "cool" to do so, that they need to share their lifedetails to "network" to be worthwhile.

The horrible downside of this is that once you upload something, there's no taking it back, and you lose the ownership of your data. Remember, "There is no such thing as The Cloud, there are only other peoples computers"

So. The data is out there, it is not safe from the owners of the services to do whatever they wish with it, and moreover, it is not safe from blackhats breaking into these services (as has so often been demonstrated)

Identity theft and personal data theft can make you feel really badly violated and raped. Even as you may "lose" nothing it hurts you, and when you lose money it hurts more.

Now, in a few years this is really going to change a lot; as currently mobile devices may "feel like extension of our minds" it is pretty evident that devices will become extensions of our mind.
This means that there will be devices that we can directly link into our conciousness, regardless of whatever the physical link layer or form of device will be.
Imagine the possibilities with such exomind/exomemory; being able to "google" for a query in your mind, and getting the results in your memory. Or getting an image pop into your mind from your photo collection when you think of it. Imagine being able to communicate and contribute to your community by just thinking about it.

This is going to change the world in fairly radical ways indeed.

And as things currently are, people will jump straight in without safeguards, with trusting the application and platform providers... No lessons learned from the current situation.

If getting your mobile and cloud based accounts hacked feels bad, just think what it will be like when your mind is hacked.

Dave999 2015-07-02 09:35
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
he added the Irc option aftermy initial post ;)

the mobile device is not in our control. well.the buyer select what to buy... then nither is our cars, travel paths, wasing machines, our birth place, tvs and so so forth...

I have no control over jolla inormation flow either...

pichlo 2015-07-02 09:42
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 1475459)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1475449)
And maybe if you already here and you talk on matter, you would enlighten us all? Because currently i see "you don't understand everything, but i don't want to explain it"
That's your way of interpreting it, not mine.
Please bear in mind that ZogG is not a native English speaker and that his way of expressing things in English may not be as eloquent as yours.

Having said that, I have to agree with him. My reading of your response to bluefoot was pretty much along the same lines as ZogG's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 1475459)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1475449)
As i understand explaining over IRC or even personal meeting can consume not less time while again, most of people here would be clueless(if you really can add som clearance). Otherwise it's one of the most common Internet answers " I do not have time, I don't want, I'm above it"
Again, that's not what I said.
Correct, that is not what you said. But again, I have to give it to ZogG: you say you do not have the time to explain things properly in a TMO post yet you offer bluefoot a meeting in a pub. That seems a bit... paradoxical to me. In my experience, writing a well thought-out TMO post can take anywhere between one and two hours. Taking the time to go to the pub at the other side of Helsinki, spending an evening there and then getting back is bound to take twice as long. And all you have achieved is explaining things to bluefoot. Do you think he will run and share the results with us? I find it hard to believe. Do you want to meet every single one of us in person one by one? Would it not be a better use of your time to spend the two hours and write the TMO post?

JulmaHerra 2015-07-02 09:47
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Judging by experiences so far, that one or two hours would be only the beginning of countless hours of explanations for new questions/speculation ending with regular "oh did you see, they don't communicate at all" when time finally runs out... However, it wouldn't be a bad thing to explain several things here as there seems to be interest for clarification/details on some issues.

ggabriel 2015-07-02 09:54
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1475483)
Judging by experiences so far, that one or two hours would be only the beginning of countless hours of explanations for new questions/speculation ending with regular "oh did you see, they don't communicate at all" when time finally runs out... However, it wouldn't be a bad thing to explain several things here as there seems to be interest for clarification/details on some issues.
I have to agree, in fact, you can easily spend hours discussing the challenges of the business model of a taxi company, and that's trivial in comparison to the "making mobile phones hw and sw" business, which I admit not to understand in its entirety.

Having said all that, it would be nice to have sources to learn more. However, the risk is that the audience will get bored and all that time spent putting together the sources would be lost.

pichlo 2015-07-02 09:54
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1475483)
Judging by experiences so far,
What experience? Show me one example of Stskeeps' post starting a chain of speculations rather than putting a stop to it.

Heck, I will be even more generous. Show me one exmaple of any official statement from Jolla that starts a chain of speculations rather than putting a stop to it.

Speculations are born from the lack of information, not the presence of it.

szopin 2015-07-02 09:59
Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1475485)
What experience? Show me one example of Stskeeps' post starting a chain of speculations rather than putting a stop to it.

Heck, I will be even more generous. Show me one exmaple of any official statement from Jolla that starts a chain of speculations rather than putting a stop to it.

Speculations are born from the lack of information, not the presence of it.
They released information about problems with display, see where that went. If they kept shut and just working we wouldn't have a flurry of: based on that one bit of information, let me give you my speculations/wild guesses why the company is being mismanaged/misPRed/backers misled

edit2: who am I kidding, they already are going for: 'based on no information', whatever, it'll get twisted anyway

edit: would love more info, but lets not kid ourselves, every bit they release is being repurposed by a few repeating names here to fit their narrative of failure


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