Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yeah, or the hands are possibly too small for big screen phones. :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It happens that "Ć" neither exists in French nor in German, so the swiss keyboard doesn't officially have it (nor does the french azerty, by the way). That's why dead ' + C = Ç.

I suspect that in the language that use it (latin-alphabet slavic languages ?), that should be the reverse :
dead ' gives you that one and no dead key to type a cedilla.

(But I assumed the guy asking for a capital Ç was a french speaking guy, with a french keyboard and thus one of the various french language supporting layouts : swiss, french, etc.)

Hence also the whole concept of compose keys or alt+code point combo :
describe characters (using numbers or ASCII) that don't exist on your current keyboard.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

No, that was me but I did not ask for the Ç nor use French azerty, I'm using qwerty with an international layout just like you I think. :D

My point was, I'll go for a qwerty layout on Chen's phone because I'm already used to it, but I initially wanted to know if it will be possible in Sailfish to use dead keys and to customize them just like it is possible on desktop Linux and Windows (the keyboard will probably have less keys than a full-size keyboard so I will probably have to use workarounds for ` for instance). I don't know if Sailfish offers the same possibilities, but I'd like to use my native characters on a qwerty keyboard easily and without onscreen menu just like I do with my desktop OSes.

If it's possible, then qwerty may be suitable to more people as long as they don't care too much about what is written on the keys, and even a blank keyboard would work (but will require some practice). Of course that would still be a minority of those whose native layout may never happen as it was the case for the Moto Mod, but still a good news and some hope.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

QtWayland has support for XKB layouts, which is used by SailfishOS. So the capabilities should be on par with X11 desktop, minus nice UI to configure this (manual layout file editing is probably neeeded if you want something non-standard).

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

That'll be fine, I had to edit the configuration file on my Linux laptop too for some custom changes. I had no idea it was the same on Sailfish, but it's probably because so far there is no need for that since the bottleneck is the onscreen virtual keyboard. It is likely harder to customize that than the layout for an hardware keyboard. To be honest I did not investigate this when I got my tohkbd because I was still using azerty at the time, and the tohkbd was produced with that layout as well, so I had no need for a custom layout configuration.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I would love to see the new device qith qi-carging. I still think this is the future of bringing power to a device :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

If it has a metal backplate then wireless charging is a no-go.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Wireless charging. Why? What does that bring to the table? Unless you can walkaround all over our planet earth with it while charging it gives no benefits at all. Or is it somehow more energy consumption effective?

I say wireless charging is scam...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Charging...!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, do we have a standard or do I need 9 different chargers to different brands... ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, the most important is a bootloader free hardware! For the OS there is a lot of possibility. sailfish OS, maemo, PostMarketOS (i like the idea), OpenEmbedded or a good old Debian!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

The device will have USB-C and I'll be happy to use that to charge the phone, this will already be a significant step in the present after the steps back to the past I made recently with my recent purchases (like the tablet having only micro-USB :D).

I fail to see real benefits for Qi charging to be honest. For me it just brings bigger chargers and you can't hold your phone while it is charging like you would with a regular cable. And I would not have a Qi charger in every place I need to charge my phone, like work, next to the computer at home, during trips, so cable-charging will always be a thing (or maybe you mean real-wireless-remote charging? I've seen that but the distance from the charger was just a few centimeters).

By the way Chen, will we have some kind of fast-charge like some laptops have nowadays (like the Xiaomi Mi Air)? It's very efficient and really makes you feel a lot more comfortable when traveling, not worrying about saving battery anymore.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, I think that qi-charging is really nice since it minimizes the possibility of breaking the USB connector; the only time you need to connect a cable is if you need to flash something since you can use WLAN to ssh to the device :)

It is good that USB-C is more robust than micro-USB but I still fear for connector damage...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Quick charging depends on the platform. This is another benefit of using Qualcomm SoC despite the high upfront cost.

This MSM8953 indeed supports quick charging. So I don't see any problem that it can't be implemented.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Quick charging might sound nice on paper, but it breaks USB compability. :mad:

You need to have the one charger in the house that supports it when you go somewhere or else you will be trapped in slow-charge mode ..

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I thought an incompatible charger would just charge at a lower pace (doesn't it?).

I'm not too concerned about the USB connector to be honest. This has been my nightmare with the N900, but never had any issue with N9, Jolla or Jolla C, and they were even more tortured than the N900. It's not a rule of course, and it will depend on the soldering on Chen's phone, but at least USB-C is more robust and doesn't have these small friction pins to keep the male connector in.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

so...... it's better not to have it at all? Even if most of us cgarging the phone at home. Or we can get another cahrger for work.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yeah my personal opinion (which is just mine) is if we go for a 400-600€ phone that's going to be our long-awaited keyboard slider phone with good OS, it's worth moving on and taking advantage of the new technologies. Especially if they provide actual benefits. We'll have to use our brand new USB-C cables anyway, so there's no real point in trying to keep compatibility with our old N9 chargers. And chargers are not really expensive enough to justify downgrading the device capabilities. But again it's just my view of it.

I'm curious about this incompatibility thing. Is it a fact for all fast charging devices juiceme, or just for those with bad implementation, or just bad chargers?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

There are at least 4 different implemetations from various device/chipset vendors which are incompatible with each other.
Also just the Qualcomm version seems to come in 5 different generations...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge

And none of these are part of the USB specification! :mad:

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

But AFAIK, nothing is broken. It will charge with any other charger but slower.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yes, it will default to slowcharge then. But imagine you have many different devices which have different standard of chrging; it gets really messy soon...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I wouldn't worry that much about proprietary charging type breaking USB compatibility.
The USB Consortium broke it themselves already while introducing the USB Type-C plug... : http://blog.fosketts.net/2016/10/29/...thunderbolt-3/

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

We will? :confused: Who is this "we"?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I will include an exclusive Type-C to Micro USB adapter to Pichlo if he ever bought one ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well...

for me, one of the reasons is exactly like juiceme mentionned :
it's less wear and tear on the USB connector.
(My jolla 1's currently quite damage and I have to find a repair shop that could solder it).

Also, depending on how it is done (pogopins going to contact point on the backcover ?) I could even re-use one of the various Palm Pebbles that I have around.
I.e.: wireless charging with magnetic alignement. Just roughly put the phone on the charger, and it automatically jumps into perfect alignement with the coils guaranteeing optimal charging.
Such pebbles also happen to be angled, so it doubles as a nice stand.
And the pebbles are small, easy to carry while travelling (unlike some huge Qi mats)


For the record, there are companies working exactly on that (while not quite on the scale of the whole planet, more on the scale of a room, so it can leverage reflexions).

There's an emitter station that uses various form of beam shaping, leveraging reflections, etc. to concentrate the power where the charging device happens to be at the moment.
(i.e.: instead of diffusing the energy in every direction and be victim of the invert square law, it concentrates the beam where the phone is and gets more efficiency).
(It's a cousin of the various method that modern multi-antenna Wifi router try to use to aim their signal at the device).

Apple is alleged to have entered a partnership with one of these companies. (WattUp)

But it's not sure when this technology will be perfected to the point it can actually be used.
(Current rumors is that iPhone 8 will feature WattUp and Qi compatible coil behind its back glass cover,
and within a year, a WattUp charge emiter should become available.
I doubt that this is going to be that fast).

Ouch, indeed. Qualcomm 625 uses Qualcomm's QuickCharge 3, which is basically the odd thing out:
they have their own proprietary way to go above 5V / 2A (10 W).


Later chips boards like Qualcomm 630 uses QuickCharge 4, which is basically compatible with the USB "power delivery" (PD) industry standard.
(A standardized way for USB device to ask for more power by asking the device to raise voltage to 9v or 12v or higher).

So instead of baing able to plug into any USB-PD compatible charger (basically anything above USB 3.1), with QuickCharge 3 you need to hunt the specific charger that came with the phone :-(

I suppose there is no way to add USB-PD compatibility ?
(I've heard online of HTC 10 smartphone - has a QuickCharge 3 chipset but reportedly has partial support for USB-PD.
Maybe HTC have done it with a completly custom design,
but maybe it's only a firmware change and/or swapping a compatible component)

On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken, a smartphone LiPo battery would charge at 1C ?
Meaning the the top charging rate of a 3500mAh battery would be 3.5A@4.2 (~16W).
So a garden variety 5V 2A (10W) USB tablet charger should do the work within a reasonnable amount of time - charging the phone in 1:30 hour instead of 1 hour.
So, meh, not dramatic.

Oh and speaking about the battery, chen, did you decide what internal connection will be there ?
A end-user replaceable ribbon/connector ? (So a motivated user could un-screw the back cover and replace the battery. Like on iPhones, etc.)
Or only something one needs to solder ? (I little bit delicate even for motivated non-pro users).

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It's in progress. I'm more towards removable battery + separate wall charger for just the battery. But that involves back plate structures and how to deliver that, and if it affects the looking etc. We are analysing all possibilities. Will update at a later stage.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

If the battery and back cover are removable (hope so, it matters more than the case look for me), I suppose µSD and SIM cards will be accessed from there too. If so, do you intend to keep them accessible without removing the battery, like on Jolla 1? There are some phones in which the battery prevents sliding out the cards.

Admittedly, accessing the SIM card slot without turning the device off should not be very important since it will feature dual-SIM, even though there may be some seldom cases when one would want to use the SIM card(s) in another device rather than using other SIM card(s) in the phone, and therefore would still need to access the slot despite the dual-SIM capability. Not as important or frequent as the µSD though, I don't think this should weight much in the balance if there is a trade-off to it.

Eagerly looking forward for the next round of updates!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I came from using an N9 to a Moto Z Play. That is going from a 3.9 inch to a 5.5 inch display. At first I thought this phone is huge, but after several months of use I prefer the 5.5 inch display. Everything is larger. I can read email and posts on forums easier. Also typing on the on screen keyboard is easier for me.

I am 55 and my eyesight is not what it used to be when I used to work for Motorola reading the imei numbers on the back of the phones.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Sailfish OS with Android support and notification led is something what i need.... 5,5" screen is ok, same what i have my Turing Phone. Battery size... at least 1-2 days usage without charging.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Type-C connector looks more durable to me compared to microUSB, also disconnects easily.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

The main benefit of USB-C is that you can insert the cord in complete darkness pretty safely, unless you are so boozed up that you are trying to wriggle it in sideways :p

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

There are several options in the market so that connection ports stay healthy such as

http://www.forever.eu/accessories-li...b-cable-white/

http://www.gearbest.com/samsung-cabl...SAAEgLiL_D_BwE

https://www.banggood.com/Magnetic-Mi...iAAEgJ5pfD_BwE

They work with micro-usb, usb C and lightning connectors

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

You mean something similar to this ?
So you can charge a backup battery while using the phone ?

I have bought a similar-looking device in the past. I'm very happy with this. It's also useful for camera batteries (the pogo-pins slide and can be adjusted to any battery +/- terminals).

Well, that would be good for quickly switching batteries, but also to access any other useful contact.
(Probably wireless charging pogopins, as discussed above. So people can slap a Qi charger. Or whatever else charging solution)

Personnally, I don't mind if this increases the thickness by a couple mm.
End-user replaceable battery is just too much useful.

In my case, it would be interesting to know if it fall-disconnects safely :-P
(I think the busted USB on my current Jolla comes from a couple of fall while connected to charger / or to computer)
It's a shame that USB consortium didn't go for a classic flat connector like Apple's Lightning (probably Apple managed to patent reversibility on such connectors).

I miss the indestructible connector on my first ever Palm IIIc....

Yup, I was indeed thinking to acquire some magnetic quicik-snap solution.

Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 

Please, make a version with "european-style" keyboard with short left shift and the one extra button between left shift and z button.

US keyboards have one key less(101/104) than many european keyboards(102/105). Many european keymaps require this key.

People who use US keymaps can still use these european style keyboards without problems - they just have one button which does nothing.

The difference is shown here:

https://www.goodtyping.com/difteclats-us-uk2.png

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Maybe I've missed everything, but I'm starting to doubt if a TMO thread is a good way of discussing all the things.

I raised two important subjects: a glass/plastic screen and a notification LED, which received barely no attention. Especially - no reply from chenliangchen.

It looks to me that other important subjects, like the hwkb layout are so much discussed that they smother any other subjects.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I am very sorry that I might have overlooked your questions. You have my apologies. It's getting very tough with the Keyboard Mod recently...

For your questions:

Screen will be glass. I'm not considering plastic at the moment, it will ruin the premium feeling which I am trying to build with this device.

Plastic doesn't break, but it scratches too easily and feels really cheap. I wish I could use Moto's shatter proof screen though.


What we can do is to have a "first party" glass protector that can be purchased with it. And it can do some protections.


Regarding LED light, that's part of the work we are doing at the moment. It depends on the solution we based on. Will update to you at a later stage. (I am trying to put one on it)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

would the light be RGB?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Really hope you can find a way to add this LED, with a non-AMOLED screen it's really a game changer. I can't imagine how many times it has proven useful and how many unnecessary unlocks it has saved me on the N900 and Jolla, and even the monochrome LED of the Jolla C is very useful (but not as much as a RGB). It's funny how such a small and inexpensive thing (but I understand that implementing it and finding the space in the bezel is not so easy) can be so useful and yet striped off many phones nowadays.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

The RGB light itself is cheap, the difficulty is to wire it on the already made board. And also integrate with structure. I'm aware of this importance. :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

did you consider using an oled-display?